Why buy it at the LBS?

Well, I'm one those folks who would only buy an expensive bike at my
LBS. And in fact I just did!
Let's see why a few hundred dollar differencein quoted price is worth
it.

First I ordered a bike with Chorus components. Both the BB and the
front der. in the kit were flawed. So the LBS replaced both with Record
components at no additinal cost to me. Think about that for customer
service!!
And the bike fits perfectly. And if you are going to spend $$$ isn't
that pretty valuable?

As to your issue with cost differences. Think about what that means
over the life of a high quality bike and they don't seem to be very
much.

Hey, if you enjoy and are capable of building up a bike and are sure
that you can fit yourself perfectly I have no doubt that you can buy a
frame and buidl up kit much cheaper than a built up bike at a LBS.
That's fine, but you are not buying the same things.

"Bill H." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suppose there's something to be said for looking at it and touching
it and realizing "Wow, it really DOES only weigh three pounds!", but is
that worth $400? There are probably people who simply don't care.
They walk in with their platinum credit card and plunk down $6000 on a
bike and walk out, sure that they've purchased the best that's
available, sales tax be damned.

I think you hit the nail on the head right there.

Bill H. said:

Anyhow, I was strolling around and
noticed a frame that was selling for $4995. It was a Time model frame,
and I'd never heard of them, but evidently they're quite expensive.

Time VXR?

RFM

I think that might have been it. It was roped off and had a sign that
said "To Our Valued Customers: Please ask for assistance before
handling Time frames".

In many states, the consumer is supposed to pay use tax on the
mail-order items at the same rate as the sales tax. What many people do
is pay the "suggested" use tax for their income amount, in Michigan it
is .005 of income. They still can audit you for the real amount - but I
assume it is not easy.

I know some long time serious bikers who do quite well in business.
They get the custom frame and have the bike shop order and put in the
Record parts. Maybe it cost as much as their big screen TV, maybe less.
But they don't feel like being their own mechanic.

I'm in another hobby that is competitive. I wanted to step up from an
entry level model to one from the industry leader ten years ago. At
first I was going to go for the intermediate model. Then I realized
that the top model was only $700 more. I told my wife that I would
never have to buy this type of item again, and that having the best
would eliminate one excuse on why I didn't perform well. Suprisingly,
she agreed, and I ordered before she could change her mind.

Ah!!! But I have just purchased the second "last bike of my life."

Quoted message said:

Ah!!! But I have just purchased the second "last bike of my life."

I get customers who say this, typically in their late 50s, and I tell them
that I most certainly hope that's not the case! I'd like to believe (and
hope they do as well) that their bike is going to help them stay healthy and
that it will be such a central part of their lifestyle that it will get
ridden so much that yes, indeed, it will get worn out. I tell them about
Sean, 74 years old, who flies to Ireland each year to do a double-metric
century.

So sure, you can claim that to your wife, but hopefully, in your heart, you
don't believe that's really the case. I prefer to say that it's better to
have an affair with your bike than...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Bill H." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was at a LBS recently. This was one of those "snooty", expensive
shops where everything is overpriced.

Anyhow, I was strolling around while my bike was being worked on
(nevermind why I brought my bike there - I won't be going back) and
noticed a frame that was selling for $4995. It was a Time model frame,
and I'd never heard of them, but evidently they're quite expensive.

Time are remarkably good high quality frames.

Quoted message said:

I got to thinking that if you were to buy that in the store, you'd pay
about 8% sales tax, which comes out to an extra $400 or so. However,
if you buy it online, you may only end up paying shipping (and no tax).

So: Why would anyone buy something this expensive at the store?

Well, a good LBS should give you a proper bike fitting so you *do* buy the
correct size frame and don't waste your money ;-) Also, unless you can build
up the bike yourself, a good LBS will build up a bike for you, to your own
specification, that will fit *properly*. My husband got a bike built up for
him this way at our local LBS (frame not a Time though - beyond our budget)
and what he now has is a beautiful, exceedingly well put together bike that
will last him for years. Plus there was the post-sale check up after some
miles to do any tweaking that may be needed.

Quoted message said:

I suppose there's something to be said for looking at it and touching
it and realizing "Wow, it really DOES only weigh three pounds!", but is
that worth $400? There are probably people who simply don't care.
They walk in with their platinum credit card and plunk down $6000 on a
bike and walk out, sure that they've purchased the best that's
available, sales tax be damned.

Indeed, but you get people like that in all walks of life - think hi-fi
geeks, designer label fashions... I think you get my drift :-)

Quoted message said:

The other argument could be that when buying it in the store you get a
real "professional" service and fit and advice in purchasing
components, but wouldn't most people spending that amount of money kind
of already KNOW something about bikes and their size, etc?

Yes, you should get a professional service and not everyone who has a lot of
money knows about bikes.

Quoted message said:

Finally, I got to thinking that this was kind of a "pro" bike, and most
successful professionals don't even buy their own equipment, they just
use what they're paid to endorse.

As in any other field... football, golf, tennis....

Quoted message said:

Needless to say, I walked out with a lot of questions bothering me, and
I was glad that my simple little hardtail was paid for and working
well.

If your bike does what you want it to do, fine. But everyone is different
and it's different bikes for different purposes. Example - son has basic
aluminium frame road bike - entry-level (Peugeot). He's ridden mile upon
mile on it happily and there's nothing wrong with it. Earlier this year we
took him to France to do the Tour of Normandy which involved quite a bit of
hill-climbing - some steep stuff in there. My husband had built-up a very
light carbon-framed Look for himself, but allowed our son to use it to do
the Tour of Normandy. Son was raving over this bike as a result of how it
handled on the climbs and descents. The fact it was so light made climbing
so much easier. The responsiveness of the carbon made the downhills much
easier to control at speed. He was extremely glad he was on the Look instead
of his own entry-level bike. Now the kind of cycling I do, I don't need a
high-end bike, my entry-level Bianchi ML3 is more than adequate for me when
I feel the need for (relative) speed. My Bianchi tourer is *perfect* for my
daily cycling as it's set up as a tourer, so I use it rain or shine and it
does what I need it to.

Cheers, helen s

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill H. said:

I was at a LBS recently. This was one of those "snooty", expensive
shops where everything is overpriced.

Anyhow, I was strolling around while my bike was being worked on
(nevermind why I brought my bike there - I won't be going back) and
noticed a frame that was selling for $4995. It was a Time model frame,
and I'd never heard of them, but evidently they're quite expensive.

I got to thinking that if you were to buy that in the store, you'd pay
about 8% sales tax, which comes out to an extra $400 or so. However,
if you buy it online, you may only end up paying shipping (and no tax).

So: Why would anyone buy something this expensive at the store?

When we are all used to paying Asian wages for our inexpensively made
bicycle goods, we seemed to have forgotten that there are also first
world North American and European wage earners who can also make good
quality bicycle goods too at competitive prices. We all keep saying,
in the news media, that we want to stop the outflow of manufacturing
jobs to third world countries. Yet, we are not willing to pay higher
wages, which translates to higher cost of goods to keep North American
jobs in town.

But having said that, you can buy less exotic bikes/frames made by
Habanero, Airborne and Supergo, especially the Scattante CFR (a carbon
monocoque frame bike made by Martec -- a carbon frame maker in Taiwan)
that are not made here. Obviously, it's no OCLV or a Merlin Extralite.
It's cheaper. However, some pros say that these bikes don't ride as
nice and as crisp as the higher end locally made expensive models and
sizing may be limited. This limitation may pose problems to certain
smaller individuals that can't ride a super long top tube bike.

The same motto in buying things still holds true -- you always get what
you paid for.

There's nothing wrong with shopping online or shopping cheap.. It
depends upon how much priority you place yourself in this sport.

Quoted message said:

I suppose there's something to be said for looking at it and touching
it and realizing "Wow, it really DOES only weigh three pounds!", but is
that worth $400? There are probably people who simply don't care.
They walk in with their platinum credit card and plunk down $6000 on a
bike and walk out, sure that they've purchased the best that's
available, sales tax be damned.

A tricked out Dura-Ace Seven Axiom with a pair of Zipp 404 wheels can
go even much higher. That doesn't seem to even stop people plucking
down their credit cards down for one. What's your priority in life
when it comes to the bike? Some people have priorities different from
yours as you know.

Quoted message said:

The other argument could be that when buying it in the store you get a
real "professional" service and fit and advice in purchasing
components, but wouldn't most people spending that amount of money kind
of already KNOW something about bikes and their size, etc?

If that is so, why would Lance Armstrong enlist the help of people
like John Coobs in his early racing years and as well as his coach to
perfect his bike fitting on his stage bike as well as his TT bike, so
he can go fast and win 7 TDFs?
Few people actually realize that his bike fit is exactly the same as on
both his stage and TT bike. You ride your stage and TT bikes
differently, and yet he was able to just pluck in and still maintain a
highly efficient power output.
You can not really be an expert in anything and everything. There's
always someone else out there who may know more.

A properly fitted bike is a bike that allows you to maximize your power
output at the most comfortable "muscle-supported" posture. Some elite
shops can go as far as fitting you on a variable frame bike with a SRM
power meter and computer hookup -- to determine measurements to
hopefully find a frame that will closely best fit you. Depending upon
how long you cycle and the distances you have done, there is a variable
degree of muscle supported posture that is achieved for each
individual. A pro fitter will take an hour or two to determine this,
plus a return fit to finalize everything. All this labour is done in
North America, paid for in North American non-Wal-Mart wages. Yes,
this is expensive. If he or she is good fitter, he or she will charge
what's appropriate.

Again. What's your priority in life to your bike?

Quoted message said:

Needless to say, I walked out with a lot of questions bothering me, and
I was glad that my simple little hardtail was paid for and working
well.

If you are happy with your hardtail, so be it.

David said:

If that is so, why would Lance Armstrong enlist the help of people
like John Coobs in his early racing years and as well as his coach to
perfect his bike fitting on his stage bike as well as his TT bike, so
he can go fast and win 7 TDFs?

Wouldn't you agree that at least 99.99% of bicyclists aren't ever going
to need a coach? Just because Lance does something doesn't mean it
makes sense for someone else to do it.

I'm not negating the value of professional fit and service (for some),
I just don't think it's something that most people are ever going to
need or even benefit from. As long as your bike fits you reasonably
well, what difference is a few percentage points here or there going to
make? If I go out and pay several thousand dollars for a bike and a
professional fit and have the best of everything, at the end of the
day, I'm still me, with my own physical limitations, my job, family, my
other committments. Yes, having better equipment and fit might make a
difference in efficiency and I might get around a little faster, but
I'll still never compete with the REAL racers.

Quoted message said:

Again. What's your priority in life to your bike?

For me, it's to have fun, get some exercise and get around town to run
some small errands. I'm not training for a triathlon. I'm not trying
to become a professional. And I bet most of the people buying these
super-expensive bikes aren't either.

wafflycat said:

Time are remarkably good high quality frames.

Are there "high quality" frames that are not "remarkably good"?

Quoted message said:

I'm not negating the value of professional fit and service (for some),
I just don't think it's something that most people are ever going to
need or even benefit from. As long as your bike fits you reasonably
well, what difference is a few percentage points here or there going to
make? If I go out and pay several thousand dollars for a bike and a
professional fit and have the best of everything, at the end of the
day, I'm still me, with my own physical limitations, my job, family, my
other committments. Yes, having better equipment and fit might make a
difference in efficiency and I might get around a little faster, but
I'll still never compete with the REAL racers.

I have seen more people hampered by screwed-up fit issues as anything else.
You vastly underestimate the importance of nailing the fit right.

Even for a non-competitive sort, at the very least it make the difference
between feeling rather beatup at the end of a century and feeling *really*
beatup.

Work your way through the group archives and you find lots of posts from
folks asking: "Should I buy bike X or bike Y?"

Somewhere in the thread of responses will be someone responding: "Buy the
one that fits you better." Wise advise.

Quoted message said:

For me, it's to have fun, get some exercise and get around town to run
some small errands. I'm not training for a triathlon. I'm not trying
to become a professional. And I bet most of the people buying these
super-expensive bikes aren't either.

I think you're wrong here. Before someone spends the better part of five
figures on a bike, they have some *real* interest and commitment to the
sport, whether it be racing, love of organized rides, or a desire to do some
serous touring.

I wager you don't know anyone who owns a "super-expensive" bike, so you're
not in a position to have an informed opinion about this, are you?

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Chris Neary said:

I wager you don't know anyone who owns a "super-expensive" bike, so you're
not in a position to have an informed opinion about this, are you?

LOL - Nice logic.

Basically, you're saying that if I don't know anyone who personally
owns a super-expensive bike, I can't have an opinion on people who buy
them? Well I don't know any murderers, either (I don't think) but that
doesn't keep me from saying they should be locked up. One doesn't need
personal experience with something to have an informed opinion on a
subject.

Let's say that I DID know someone who owns a very expensive bike.
Let's say his name was John F. Kerry. Let's say that I know for a fact
that this person is not training for any big race, and that he doesn't
even ride his bike very far or very often. That would be an example of
me knowing someone, right? Would that then give me an "informed
opinion"? Or would that just be an anomoly?

My opinion stands, and yes, it is an OPINION. It's not a fact - it's
just what I think. To repeat, I think that most people buying these
$5000+ bikes are effectively wasting their money. That's their right
and yes, there are worse things they could be spending their money on,
but I still think that for most of them, it's just plain stupid. Some
of them are probably so insecure as to come out and attack me for
expressing an opinion that casts a question upon their obsessive love
affair with some carbon-fiber tubes, but I'm not going to lose any
sleep over it. Buy what you want. If wasting money were a crime,
everyone in America would be in jail.

Bill H. said:

Chris Neary said:

I wager you don't know anyone who owns a "super-expensive" bike, so you're
not in a position to have an informed opinion about this, are you?

LOL - Nice logic.

Basically, you're saying that if I don't know anyone who personally
owns a super-expensive bike, I can't have an opinion on people who buy
them? Well I don't know any murderers, either (I don't think) but that
doesn't keep me from saying they should be locked up. One doesn't need
personal experience with something to have an informed opinion on a
subject.

Let's say that I DID know someone who owns a very expensive bike.
Let's say his name was John F. Kerry. Let's say that I know for a fact
that this person is not training for any big race, and that he doesn't
even ride his bike very far or very often. That would be an example of
me knowing someone, right? Would that then give me an "informed
opinion"? Or would that just be an anomoly?

My opinion stands, and yes, it is an OPINION. It's not a fact - it's
just what I think. To repeat, I think that most people buying these
$5000+ bikes are effectively wasting their money. That's their right
and yes, there are worse things they could be spending their money on,
but I still think that for most of them, it's just plain stupid. Some
of them are probably so insecure as to come out and attack me for
expressing an opinion that casts a question upon their obsessive love
affair with some carbon-fiber tubes, but I'm not going to lose any
sleep over it. Buy what you want. If wasting money were a crime,
everyone in America would be in jail.

You're right it's your opinion. It's my opinion, that when you say it
is stupid or a waste of money, to spend $5000+ on a bike, that you
have no appreciation of quality. Or an underlying jealousy, that is
displayed in resentment.

Just to clarify, my LeMond listed for arond $1100, I paid $700 on a
closeout, year old model and have since invested about $1500 in the
bike. On paper, at retail the bike would be worth about $3000-3500.
So, no I don't own a $5000 bike. I would if I could afford it, and I
would have a pro fit done before purchasing.

There is a segment of the population who seem to have a WalMart
mentality. They don't understand, appreciate, or have any desire to
own the best. The best of anything, that is. To me, it shows a lack of
passion. I often can't own the very best do to financial limitations,
but I generally strive for the best that I can afford. Others, seem
willing to accept mediocrity in all endeavors.

As for John Kerry, he may not have time to ride often, but I have read
that he has done long rides for various causes. Are you saying the you
know John Kerry personally?

You can have an opinion, but in your case it isn't an informed one. An
informed one would include having been pro fit, and then comparing a
high end bike to whatever price point you think isn't "stupid".

Just rereading your last paragraph, I detect a lot of resentment and
some anger. Why so hostile?

Life is Good!
Jeff

Bill H. said:

My opinion stands, and yes, it is an OPINION. It's not a fact - it's
just what I think. To repeat, I think that most people buying these
$5000+ bikes are effectively wasting their money. That's their right
and yes, there are worse things they could be spending their money on,
but I still think that for most of them, it's just plain stupid. Some
of them are probably so insecure as to come out and attack me for
expressing an opinion that casts a question upon their obsessive love
affair with some carbon-fiber tubes, but I'm not going to lose any
sleep over it. Buy what you want. If wasting money were a crime,
everyone in America would be in jail.

So? Some people want good quality, some people want bragging rights,
and some people want to show off. If you have got the money to do it,
why not? I wonder how many folks around here, if their lotto numbers
came in for a couple of million, wouldn't go down to the bike shop and
buy the nicest bike that money can buy..... Heck I would....

W

"The Wogster" wrote: (clip) I wonder how many folks around here, if their
lotto numbers came in for a couple of million, wouldn't go down to the bike
shop and buy the nicest bike that money can buy..... Heck I would....
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Naw....I would hire someone to do my riding for me.

In article <[email hidden]>, Bill
H. <[email hidden]> wrote:

Hi Bill,

Quoted message said:

David said:

If that is so, why would Lance Armstrong enlist the help of people
like John Coobs in his early racing years and as well as his coach to
perfect his bike fitting on his stage bike as well as his TT bike, so
he can go fast and win 7 TDFs?

Wouldn't you agree that at least 99.99% of bicyclists aren't ever going
to need a coach? Just because Lance does something doesn't mean it
makes sense for someone else to do it.

Actually, that percentage would be much much more lower than you think.
I have met several big guys and gals (200-270lbs) who I thought would
never ride faster and longer when I used to work in the cycling
industry. Snooty racers in the shop would look down at them, probably
in their heart they think fat or poor souls should not even be in this
pro shop (so I know how you feel). I was more humble and modest and
help them choose bikes that are appropriate to them. Many of these
people would never even thought they need a coach or even a bike
fitter. Fast forward a number of years later, many of the same people
are now elite athletes (cat 4, elite tris and mountain bikers) and
beating the same people who used to look them down. Do I have a great
admiration of them? You bet I do!
There are now a lot of clubs that have a resident coach you can tap his
or her wisdom from. There's a saying that a wise man learns from the
wisdom of others.

Quoted message said:

I'm not negating the value of professional fit and service (for some),
I just don't think it's something that most people are ever going to
need or even benefit from. As long as your bike fits you reasonably
well, what difference is a few percentage points here or there going to
make?

Actually, it's more than a few percentage points.

If you're using your bike solely as a commuter or a play bike and not
plan to cycle longer than 50-160km, then I don't suggest a pro fit.
Still, a less expensive bike fit of some sort would certainly help.

Most entry level cyclists think they can fit themselves properly based
on what they rode before. Most entry level cyclists ride in a
"bone-supported" posture and that's when you pluck on the bike and
ride, it sort of feels comfortable to a certain point. After that
point on, you're going to be beat up by road irregularities just
because, you are using your bones to absorb the road shock, which is a
no no. If you don't address these problems soon and keep forcing
yourself to ride longer, you may suffer from any number of related
cycling injuries to a point that, you can't cycle anymore.
When I mentioned a pro-fit in my earlier message, I mentioned the
phrase "muscle-supported" posture and this is what I meant, using your
muscles to absorb the road shocks which allows you to ride super long
distances and still come out fresh.

People who had ridden in a "bone-supported" posture for so long and now
having to ride a properly fitted bike will be torture for a few hundred
miles or so. You need to develop the necessary muscles to support this
good form and that's why, there will be some visits back to the LBS to
gradually fit it to your ideal form.

Quoted message said:

If I go out and pay several thousand dollars for a bike and a
professional fit and have the best of everything, at the end of the
day, I'm still me, with my own physical limitations, my job, family, my
other committments. Yes, having better equipment and fit might make a
difference in efficiency and I might get around a little faster, but
I'll still never compete with the REAL racers.

It's unfair to assume that a number of other cyclists who are empty
nesters (kids gone, house paid in full), retired and are enjoying their
greatest cycling years are not going to reward themselves with better
bikes down the road.

If they are doing charity rides, supported tours, or dabble in master
races, what's stopping them from buying the best that they can most
afford and get pro-fitted?

Life is too short not to enjoy it to the fullest.

David.

Leo Lichtman said:

"The Wogster" wrote: (clip) I wonder how many folks around here, if their
lotto numbers came in for a couple of million, wouldn't go down to the bike
shop and buy the nicest bike that money can buy..... Heck I would....
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Naw....I would hire someone to do my riding for me.

I would only hire someone to go ***up*** the hills for me. Everything
else, I would still do for myself.

Leo Lichtman said:

"The Wogster" wrote: (clip) I wonder how many folks around here, if their
lotto numbers came in for a couple of million, wouldn't go down to the bike
shop and buy the nicest bike that money can buy..... Heck I would....
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Naw....I would hire someone to do my riding for me.

Kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it?

W