Why do I smell of ammonia?



M

Mikep

Guest
I've found that when I train hard (run or bike) for more that one hour I sometimes smell of ammonia.
At first I thought it may have something to do with my workout clothing, you know the way some
microfabric/coolmax seem to smell bad after a while that washing just won't get rid of. But I've
noticed this smell with new and old clothes alike. I even seem to continue to exude this odor even
after showering. I have noticed this phenomena seems to be somewhat related to the amount of meat
that I eat: more meat = increased likelihood of smelling like ammonia.

Anybody know what this means?

Mike P.
 
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:21:18 GMT, "mikep" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I've found that when I train hard (run or bike) for more that one hour I sometimes smell of
>ammonia. At first I thought it may have something to do with my workout clothing, you know the way
>some microfabric/coolmax seem to smell bad after a while that washing just won't get rid of. But
>I've noticed this smell with new and old clothes alike. I even seem to continue to exude this odor
>even after showering. I have noticed this phenomena seems to be somewhat related to the amount of
>meat that I eat: more meat = increased likelihood of smelling like ammonia.
>
>Anybody know what this means?
>
>Mike P.
>

The ammonia smell comes froms ammonia, I believe. I also believe, it (Ammonia) happens to be
a by product of the metabolisation(If thats a word) of protein. If you happen to be eating
alot of meat in place of carbs or fat that would explain the smell getting stronger. Protein
is not necessarily a last resort but not the primary choice for the body to burn for fuel. I
use the Ammonia smell to help me with pinpointing whether or not I'm consuming enough
calories. If my diet is lacking in calories vs the amount I'm expending during workouts the
ammonia smell increases. In my case, I eat a rather high carb diet, this probably means my
glycogen stores have not had enough time/calories to replenish significantly so the body
starts burn more protein. Of course this is merely my experiance not a scientific study.

~Matt
 
Actually, I don't think it's just connected to meat or protein. I'm a vegetarian, and experience the
same thing with any long efforts. It's not so much that I smell like ammonia, but I have an ammonia
smell in my nose.

While I agree it's got to be something about how your body is metabolizing it's fuel, I don't think
it's the protein link.
 
I found a good article on ammonia smell:

www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ammonia.htm

Even though it's a body building site, it seems to have a good explanation of what goes on in
extended cardio. This site is saying it's low carbs for the most part.

Interesting, don't know why I never looked into it myself!
 
I believe that it is from burning your own muscle protein. I do this when I have allowed myself to
get way out of shape and begin training at too hard an effort level for my fitness. I goes away
after the first month of consistent training. It might be from diet but I really do believe after
years of training that it is destruction of your own body mass. No science, just personal
observation.

Ken

"mikep" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I've found that when I train hard (run or bike) for more that one hour I sometimes smell of
> ammonia. At first I thought it may have something to do with my workout clothing, you know the way
> some microfabric/coolmax seem
to
> smell bad after a while that washing just won't get rid of. But I've
noticed
> this smell with new and old clothes alike. I even seem to continue to
exude
> this odor even after showering. I have noticed this phenomena seems to be somewhat related to the
> amount of meat that I eat: more meat = increased likelihood of smelling like ammonia.
>
> Anybody know what this means?
>
> Mike P.
 
<MJuric> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:21:18 GMT, "mikep" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I've found that when I train hard (run or bike) for more that one hour I sometimes smell of
> >ammonia. At first I thought it may have something to
do
> >with my workout clothing, you know the way some microfabric/coolmax seem
to
> >smell bad after a while that washing just won't get rid of. But I've
noticed
> >this smell with new and old clothes alike. I even seem to continue to
exude
> >this odor even after showering. I have noticed this phenomena seems to be somewhat related to the
> >amount of meat that I eat: more meat = increased likelihood of smelling like ammonia.
> >
> >Anybody know what this means?
> >
> >Mike P.
> >
>
> The ammonia smell comes froms ammonia, I believe. I also believe, it (Ammonia) happens to be a by
> product of the metabolisation(If thats a word) of protein. If you happen to be eating alot of meat
> in place of carbs or fat that would explain the smell getting stronger. Protein is not necessarily
> a last resort but not the primary choice for the body to burn for fuel. I use the Ammonia smell to
> help me with pinpointing whether or not I'm consuming enough calories. If my diet is lacking in
> calories vs the amount I'm expending during workouts the ammonia smell increases. In my case, I
> eat a rather high carb diet, this probably means my glycogen stores have not had enough
> time/calories to replenish significantly so the body starts burn more protein. Of course this is
> merely my experiance not a scientific study.

It may not be a scientific study, but I think your explanation is spot-on.

Listen up, everybody: forget all this Atkins/balanced/ketogenic diet nonsense, and EAT MORE
CARBOHYDRATES! Your muscles will thank you....

Andy Coggan
 
Angelcats wrote:
> Actually, I don't think it's just connected to meat or protein. I'm a vegetarian, and experience
> the same thing with any long efforts. It's not so much that I smell like ammonia, but I have an
> ammonia smell in my nose.

Eh? If you don't eat protein, you die. You're eating protein, not in meat form, if you're a
vegetarian of course, but you have to be eating protein in some form or other.

--

Cheers,

Walter R. Strapps, Ph.D

"The sheer closeness of our two countries and the intensity of our mutual interaction combined with
the disparity between us in terms of wealth and power--all these things guarantee there will be
problems in U.S.-Canadian relations without anybody having to do anything to deliberately worsen the
situation."

Robert L. Stanfield, Oct. 28, 1971
 
"Angelcats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Actually, I don't think it's just connected to meat or protein. I'm a vegetarian, and experience
> the same thing with any long efforts. It's not so much that I smell like ammonia, but I have an
> ammonia smell in my nose.
>
> While I agree it's got to be something about how your body is metabolizing it's fuel, I don't
> think it's the protein link.

When you don't eat enough carbohydrate, your body will catabolize more of its *own* protein to fuel
exercise - IOW, in this context it matters little whether your a meat-eater or a vegetarian (except
that a vegetarian diet is almost invariably higher in carbohydrate than a meat-based diet).

Andy Coggan
 
IMKen wrote:
> I believe that it is from burning your own muscle protein. I do this when I have allowed myself to
> get way out of shape and begin training at too hard an effort level for my fitness. I goes away
> after the first month of consistent training. It might be from diet but I really do believe after
> years of training that it is destruction of your own body mass. No science, just personal
> observation.

It's because once you're in better shape, your body doesn't need to start catabolising protein until
later in your effort. Also, all the evidence that I know of is that it is *not* muscle protein.

>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
> "mikep" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>I've found that when I train hard (run or bike) for more that one hour I sometimes smell of
>>ammonia. At first I thought it may have something to do with my workout clothing, you know the way
>>some microfabric/coolmax seem
>
> to
>
>>smell bad after a while that washing just won't get rid of. But I've
>
> noticed
>
>>this smell with new and old clothes alike. I even seem to continue to
>
> exude
>
>>this odor even after showering. I have noticed this phenomena seems to be somewhat related to the
>>amount of meat that I eat: more meat = increased likelihood of smelling like ammonia.
>>
>>Anybody know what this means?
>>
>>Mike P.
>>
>>
>
>
>

--

--

Cheers,

Walter R. Strapps, Ph.D

"The sheer closeness of our two countries and the intensity of our mutual interaction combined with
the disparity between us in terms of wealth and power--all these things guarantee there will be
problems in U.S.-Canadian relations without anybody having to do anything to deliberately worsen the
situation."

Robert L. Stanfield, Oct. 28, 1971
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Andy Coggan"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> It may not be a scientific study, but I think your explanation is spot-on.
>
> Listen up, everybody: forget all this Atkins/balanced/ketogenic diet nonsense, and EAT MORE
> CARBOHYDRATES! Your muscles will thank you....
>

I like to tell people that if your only goal is to lose weight, than go ahead and do that
Atkins stuff. OTOH, if your goal is to be more healthy, lose weight by burning more calories
than you consume.

Most people these days are forgetting that the main reason to lose weight is to be more healthy;
losing weight is not an end in itself, unless you just want to look hot.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson
 
> Listen up, everybody: forget all this Atkins/balanced/ketogenic diet nonsense, and EAT MORE
> CARBOHYDRATES! Your muscles will thank you....
>
> Andy Coggan

Why? What proof do you have that eating carbohydrates are better for you than lets say a piece of
fish or some chicken? Should I be eating a bowl of pasta instead of the fish? When I was being
trained in weight lifting my nutritionist was only interested that I got enough protein for each
meal. She said nothing about carbohydrates. I am confused I guess. There seems to be a confliction
between your opinion and my nutritionist.

Curt
 
"Walter R. Strapps" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> IMKen wrote:
> > I believe that it is from burning your own muscle protein. I do this when I have allowed myself
> > to get way out of shape and begin training at too hard an effort level for my fitness. I goes
> > away after the first month of consistent training. It might be from diet but I really do believe
> > after years of training that it is destruction of your own body mass. No science, just personal
> > observation.
>
> It's because once you're in better shape, your body doesn't need to start catabolising protein
> until later in your effort. Also, all the evidence that I know of is that it is *not* muscle
> protein.
>
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > "mikep" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>I've found that when I train hard (run or bike) for more that one hour I sometimes smell of
> >>ammonia. At first I thought it may have something to do with my workout clothing, you know the
> >>way some microfabric/coolmax seem
> >
> > to
> >
> >>smell bad after a while that washing just won't get rid of. But I've
> >
> > noticed
> >
> >>this smell with new and old clothes alike. I even seem to continue to
> >
> > exude
> >
> >>this odor even after showering. I have noticed this phenomena seems to be somewhat related to
> >>the amount of meat that I eat: more meat = increased likelihood of smelling like ammonia.
> >>
> >>Anybody know what this means?
> >>
> >>Mike P.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> --
>
> Cheers,
>
> Walter R. Strapps, Ph.D
>
> "The sheer closeness of our two countries and the intensity of our mutual interaction combined
> with the disparity between us in terms of wealth and power--all these things guarantee there will
> be problems in U.S.-Canadian relations without anybody having to do anything to deliberately
> worsen the situation."
>
> Robert L. Stanfield, Oct. 28, 1971

Can the ammonia smell be caused by the breakdown of muscle protein from an intense workout and
perhaps muscle growth/gain rather than utilizing protein for fuel?
 
Over many years of experiencing this ammonia odor when resuming extreme exercise after periods of
time off I think (no science) that it is a result of muscle damage from overexertion. When I get
this I will have sore muscles for a few days after the work out which caused it. Once my fitness
level reaches a point where I no longer feel significant soreness I also don't get the ammonia odor.
Heh, heh, not unless it is a situation like BO. BO, I don't smell any BO. Anyway, I change my diet
little and that is why I believed it to come from tissue break down. Like I say, I have no science
to back it up, just personal observation over many years of trying to wear out the old body.

Just curious about why you would think it was not muscle protein. Perhaps that element get filed
away in another manor.

Ken

"Walter R. Strapps" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> IMKen wrote:
> > I believe that it is from burning your own muscle protein. I do this when I have allowed myself
> > to get way out of shape and begin training at
too
> > hard an effort level for my fitness. I goes away after the first month
of
> > consistent training. It might be from diet but I really do believe
after
> > years of training that it is destruction of your own body mass. No science, just personal
> > observation.
>
> It's because once you're in better shape, your body doesn't need to start catabolising protein
> until later in your effort. Also, all the evidence that I know of is that it is *not* muscle
> protein.
>
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "mikep" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>I've found that when I train hard (run or bike) for more that one hour I sometimes smell of
> >>ammonia. At first I thought it may have something to
do
> >>with my workout clothing, you know the way some microfabric/coolmax seem
> >
> > to
> >
> >>smell bad after a while that washing just won't get rid of. But I've
> >
> > noticed
> >
> >>this smell with new and old clothes alike. I even seem to continue to
> >
> > exude
> >
> >>this odor even after showering. I have noticed this phenomena seems to
be
> >>somewhat related to the amount of meat that I eat: more meat = increased likelihood of smelling
> >>like ammonia.
> >>
> >>Anybody know what this means?
> >>
> >>Mike P.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> --
>
> Cheers,
>
> Walter R. Strapps, Ph.D
>
> "The sheer closeness of our two countries and the intensity of our mutual interaction combined
> with the disparity between us in terms of wealth and power--all these things guarantee there will
> be problems in U.S.-Canadian relations without anybody having to do anything to deliberately
> worsen the situation."
>
> Robert L. Stanfield, Oct. 28, 1971
 
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:23:01 GMT, "curt" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Listen up, everybody: forget all this Atkins/balanced/ketogenic diet nonsense, and EAT MORE
>> CARBOHYDRATES! Your muscles will thank you....
>>
>> Andy Coggan
>
>Why? What proof do you have that eating carbohydrates are better for you than lets say a piece of
>fish or some chicken? Should I be eating a bowl of pasta instead of the fish? When I was being
>trained in weight lifting my nutritionist was only interested that I got enough protein for each
>meal. She said nothing about carbohydrates. I am confused I guess. There seems to be a confliction
>between your opinion and my nutritionist.
>
>Curt
>
>
I believe your nutritionust is wrong. I recently read a paragraph, actually I'm reading the
entire book but recently read this particular paragraph, from Noake's "Lore of Running".
Many studies are countering to the mindset of the weightlifting community of "Protein
Overdose" Many of these studies are showing that even endurance athletes need more protein
that Body builders and both need a percentile of what the weightlifting community proposes.
It's some ridiculously low number. I'll see if I can find it and post the number. If you
think about it it actually makes alot of sense. The body prefers to burn carbs first then
fat and finally protein. Since we have an abundance of fat the only time we would need
protein as fuel would be under situations of complete glycogen depletion as fat cannot be
converted to glycogen and I believe protein can. The end result is that on a daily bases the
only need for protein is for muscle repair and replacement. Studies show that the endurance
athlete causes more damage to the muscles on a more regular basis and to a larger extent
than does a body builder.

~Matt
 
<snippage>
>
>
> Can the ammonia smell be caused by the breakdown of muscle protein from an intense workout and
> perhaps muscle growth/gain rather than utilizing protein for fuel?

Well, your muscles most certainly do not grow or gain mass (unless you count the temporary
increased blood flow to them during exercise as gaining mass) during exercise. Muscle growth comes
as the result of (over-)repair of muscle fibres that are damaged during exercise and only takes
place after exercise.

As to the first part of your question, I can find absolutely no scientific evidence reported that
says that increase in urea during long -distance exercise is the result of actual breakdown of
muscle protein during exercise. While the vast majority of the amino acids stored in the body are in
the form or functional proteins (unlike how we have stores of glucose and fat that just sit around
doing nothing basically), but there are some small stores of amino acids which *seem* to be what is
being catabolised to produce ATP (and the ammonia smell).

At the same time, I suppose that it's *theoretically* possible that the damage being done to the
muscles by exercise is creating peptides and/or amino acids that the body is utilising to produce
energy. *BUT* this is not the same as the body actively cannibalising the muscle proteins as
happens during actual starvation. If this happens (and as I say, I haven't seen anyone say this is
actually happening) it is a side-effect of the damage being caused to the muscle protein as a
result of the exercise.

--

Cheers,

Walter R. Strapps, Ph.D

"The sheer closeness of our two countries and the intensity of our mutual interaction combined with
the disparity between us in terms of wealth and power--all these things guarantee there will be
problems in U.S.-Canadian relations without anybody having to do anything to deliberately worsen the
situation."

Robert L. Stanfield, Oct. 28, 1971
 
IMKen wrote:
> Over many years of experiencing this ammonia odor when resuming extreme exercise after periods
> of time off I think (no science) that it is a result of muscle damage from overexertion. When I
> get this I will have sore muscles for a few days after the work out which caused it. Once my
> fitness level reaches a point where I no longer feel significant soreness I also don't get the
> ammonia odor. Heh, heh, not unless it is a situation like BO. BO, I don't smell any BO. Anyway,
> I change my diet little and that is why I believed it to come from tissue break down. Like I
> say, I have no science to back it up, just personal observation over many years of trying to
> wear out the old body.
>
> Just curious about why you would think it was not muscle protein. Perhaps that element get filed
> away in another manor.

I don't think that it's muscle protein, because there's no need for it to be muscle protein.
The soreness in your muscles, as I'm sure you know, comes from doing exercise after time off.
Once you're in shape, they don't hurts any more (or at least not as much) because you've
strengthened them.

Muscles cells have small repositories of amino acids in them. These are intended to serve as stores
to rebuild damaged proteins. However, during long exercise, as the body starts running out of things
(carbs and easy fats) to burn, it uses the AA in the muscles stores. It's not terribly efficient to
burn AAs, but they're convenient.

The reason I don't think that it's damaged muscle protein being burned is that 1) there's no
evidence for that being the case and 2) Occam's razor :)

--

Cheers,

Walter R. Strapps, Ph.D

"The sheer closeness of our two countries and the intensity of our mutual interaction combined with
the disparity between us in terms of wealth and power--all these things guarantee there will be
problems in U.S.-Canadian relations without anybody having to do anything to deliberately worsen the
situation."

Robert L. Stanfield, Oct. 28, 1971
 
In article <[email protected]>, MJuric wrote:

> The end result is that on a daily bases the only need for protein is for muscle repair and
> replacement. Studies show that the endurance athlete causes more damage to the muscles on a
> more regular basis and to a larger extent than does a body builder.

One thing I recall clearly is that athletes need more protein than sedentary people because of the
muscle repair/building/replacement you mention. However, most Americans already get far more
protein in their diet than needed, so you don't necessarily need to bump up your protein intake
when working out.

Also, IIRC, your body can only process a limited amount of protein (in terms of using it for
building muscle) per day, so it you eat tons of protein thinking it will help you build muscle
faster it's not going to work.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson
 
<MJuric> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:23:01 GMT, "curt" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Listen up, everybody: forget all this Atkins/balanced/ketogenic diet nonsense, and EAT MORE
> >> CARBOHYDRATES! Your muscles will thank you....
> >>
> >> Andy Coggan
> >
> >Why? What proof do you have that eating carbohydrates are better for you than lets say a piece of
> >fish or some chicken? Should I be eating a bowl
of
> >pasta instead of the fish? When I was being trained in weight lifting my nutritionist was only
> >interested that I got enough protein for each meal. She said nothing about carbohydrates. I am
> >confused I guess. There
seems
> >to be a confliction between your opinion and my nutritionist.
> >
> >Curt
> >
> >
> I believe your nutritionust is wrong.

Well, you have a right to your opinion, but she wanted enough protien for muscle repair. I was
lifting for competition and was looking to get as big as possible. Most things I have read would be
in line with her recommendation of me eating enough protien. I also have been eating less carbs to
lose wight. One thing I noticed is that I have retained much of my muscle as I lost 20 pounds of
mostly fat. I am not just going by the scale here, so don't think it is all water.

I think there are many different ways of doing things, but all the biggest wieght lifters I know are
eating plenty of protien. Fish is probably the highest on the list. A few of them compete in
powerlifting. One has been a record holder in PA, so he must be doing something right.

To each his own. Curt

I recently read a
> paragraph, actually I'm reading the entire book but recently read this particular paragraph, from
> Noake's "Lore of Running". Many studies are countering to the mindset of the weightlifting
> community of "Protein Overdose" Many of these studies are showing that even endurance athletes
> need more protein that Body builders and both need a percentile of what the weightlifting
> community proposes. It's some ridiculously low number. I'll see if I can find it and post the
> number. If you think about it it actually makes alot of sense. The body prefers to burn carbs
> first then fat and finally protein. Since we have an abundance of fat the only time we would need
> protein as fuel would be under situations of complete glycogen depletion as fat cannot be
> converted to glycogen and I believe protein can. The end result is that on a daily bases the only
> need for protein is for muscle repair and replacement. Studies show that the endurance athlete
> causes more damage to the muscles on a more regular basis and to a larger extent than does a body
> builder.
>
> ~Matt
 
On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 10:47:43 -0400, "Walter R. Strapps" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>The reason I don't think that it's damaged muscle protein being burned is that 1) there's no
>evidence for that being the case and 2) Occam's razor :)

Ok I'll bite, AKA to lazy to look for it. Whats Occam's razor?

~Matt

BTW did you see my post on wether or not excess protein passed thru teh body above and
beyond normal maximal needs attributes to caloric intake or is it simply broken down and
passed. Still haven't been able to find an answer. Thought you might know.

>
>
>--
>
>Cheers,
>
>Walter R. Strapps, Ph.D
>
>"The sheer closeness of our two countries and the intensity of our mutual interaction combined with
>the disparity between us in terms of wealth and power--all these things guarantee there will be
>problems in U.S.-Canadian relations without anybody having to do anything to deliberately worsen
>the situation."
>
>Robert L. Stanfield, Oct. 28, 1971
 
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:59:25 -0700, Harold Buck <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, MJuric wrote:
>
>> The end result is that on a daily bases the only need for protein is for muscle repair and
>> replacement. Studies show that the endurance athlete causes more damage to the muscles on a
>> more regular basis and to a larger extent than does a body builder.
>
>
>One thing I recall clearly is that athletes need more protein than sedentary people because of the
>muscle repair/building/replacement you mention. However, most Americans already get far more
>protein in their diet than needed, so you don't necessarily need to bump up your protein intake
>when working out.

Most Americans, especially the sedentary, are getting far more carbs in their diet than needed. The
same can be said for endurance athletes, to a lesser extent. That is not to say that Atkins levels
of carb intakes are optimal, but it would certainly not hamper the performance of many endurance
athletes if they were to replace some of that pasta with lean meat and vegetables.

I know this from experience. As a recently diagnosed diabetic (185 lb, 31 yr-old male), I have eaten
as little as 100 g of carbs per day and still run OK, but swam badly and felt crappy most of the
time. Before I contracted diabetes, I was probably eating about 500 g per day and training 8 -10
hours per week. Now that I am using insulin, I am eating about 300 g per day and I am doing fine
with that and about the same amount of training.

>
>Also, IIRC, your body can only process a limited amount of protein (in terms of using it for
>building muscle) per day, so it you eat tons of protein thinking it will help you build muscle
>faster it's not going to work.
>
>--Harold Buck
>
>
>"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."
>
> - Homer J. Simpson
 
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