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why increasing strength doesn't (automatically) increase power

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Road Cycling
Published
13 November 2003
Last activity
21 November 2003
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Andy Coggan
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  1. "RK" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Back to power and weight lifting: If hypertrophy accounts for 10 to 20% of the strength increase,
    isn't that sufficient to justify some amount of traditional weight training in conjunction with
    cycling specific exercises?

    When a moderately active individual takes up strength training for a few months, the typical
    increase in strength averages around 25%. If we go with your assumption that 20% of this is due to
    hypertrophy (and 80% is due to neural factors), then that means a 5% increase in muscle
    cross-sectional area, and thus the potential for a 5% increase in maximal power. Realizing the
    difference between 25% and 5%, that the 5% is only a potential (that needs to be trained via,
    e.g., sprinting), that that gain is accompanied by an increase in mass (which needs to be
    accelerated and carried up hills), and that there are other ways of increasing maximal power (such
    as by simply riding a bike), you then have to decide whether/if weight training really fits into
    somebody's program.

    To put it more simply: non-endurance track racers better be lifting really heavy weights, to grow
    big muscles. For anybody else, weight training can't be considered a requirement (or even
    necessarily useful).

    Andy Coggan

  2. Andy,

    An interesting article. I have a couple of observations that i would like to use to stimulate
    discussion and, you might be surprised to learn, are not meant as criticisms.

    !. I am not convinced the AEPF line is really a straight line since
    the "efficiency" of muscular contraction varies some with contraction speed. However, I will accept
    that it is probably close to a straight line and this is a reasonable assumption for this
    discussion.

    2. The model does not address the issue of endurance and your discussion ignores a flaw that is
    evident if one looks at submaximal power. Assuming that one cannot maintain the maximum power for
    very long due to endurance issues, most riding must be done at some number less than maximum
    power. One could say that for a 40 k TT optimum power is 80% of max or for 100 miles 70% of max.
    It would be easy them to move the dark blue line down to reflect these levels but if one does so
    then one gets two optimum cadences, one at around 80 or so and the other around 200 or so.
    According to this analysis these cadences should be equally optimal. I look forward to hearing
    from someone hear who would make that claim. Therefore, there is a flaw in the analysis. I
    believe I know what it is in that it doesn't take into account the energy required to make the
    pedals go around. I know many here believe this is zero but, if it is, how else can one account
    for this flaw in the analysis?

    Frank

  3. "Frank Day" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It would be easy them to move the dark blue line down to reflect these levels but if one does so
    then one gets two optimum cadences, one at around 80 or so and the other around 200 or so.
    According to this analysis these cadences should be equally optimal. I look forward to hearing
    from someone hear who would make that claim. Therefore, there is a flaw in the analysis.

    This conclusion does not follow. There are lots of examples in physics where you throw out the
    "unphysical" solution, which is just an artifact of the method of computation.

    Shayne Wissler

  4. In article <[email hidden]>, "Kurgan Gringioni"

    Quoted message said:

    "Charles Beristain" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Andy: I find the conclusions very intriguing. In my group of riding friends... I need at least
    one gear lower to accomplish the same task. There was a time I was stronger then they were...
    but they all started weight training and cross training. I stick to riding 7 days a week all
    year 'round. It really bugs me that I can't climb some really technical sections (MTB) they they
    can, because they higher gearing they can use gives them a slightly faster speed/more momentum
    to get over the obstacles.

    Any hints on how i can increase my pedaling strength on the short technical climbs?

    Quoted message said:

    Read Bicycling Magazine.

    They have scores of ways to get better.

    Hey, don't dis Bicycling Magazine! They had a really good suggestion in this month's issue about
    using an old sock to contain spare tubes. I should have thought of that myself, but I'm glad to
    have read it.

    That makes it Fabrizio 1 (he accidentally posted something useful once), Bicycling 1.

    Read it only for the articles,
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  5. "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Read Bicycling Magazine.

    They have scores of ways to get better.

    Hey, don't dis Bicycling Magazine!

    Dumbass -

    Who's dissing Bicycling Magazine?

    That publication is the Bible (or the Koran) of cycling.

  6. "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    How can you not admit that you were completely wrong in defending


    your use

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of the term velocity?

    Simple: because I wasn't. I specified a direction ("circumferential"😉, meaning that what I was
    speaking about was indeed velocity, not just


    speed.

    A nice semantic argument. In this situation we either have instantaneous tangential velocity or
    circumferential speed. As the direction and pathway is clearly defined at any point on the pedal
    arc, a simply stated pedal velocity (taken as instantaneous tangential) is acceptable. However, you
    won't see the combination of terms *circumferential velocity* used in any of the better physics
    references even though it is regularly (incorrectly) used by physicists. In one dimension, velocity
    is dx/dt and in two dimensions, sqrt(dx^2+dy^2)/dt which, when we look at the average pedal velocity
    for one revolution (in the reference frame of the bicycle), is zero. The pedal velocity over any arc
    length of the circle is therefore not the same as the circumferential speed along that arc.

    Phil Holman

  7. "Frank Day" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    !. I am not convinced the AEPF line is really a straight line since
    the "efficiency" of muscular contraction varies some with contraction speed. However, I will
    accept that it is probably close to a straight line and this is a reasonable assumption for this
    discussion.

    The force-velocity relationship of isolated single muscle fibers/muscles in vitro - and even for
    multimuscle, single joint movements in vivo - is curvilinear, something that has been known
    since the early part of the 20th century. For multijoint activities such as cycling, however, it
    is linear, probably because you've got many muscles contributing, each of which has its own
    unique force-velocity curve. Be that as it may, the exact shape has little to do with the
    conclusions drawn.

    Quoted message said:

    2. The model does not address the issue of endurance and your discussion ignores a flaw that is
    evident if one looks at submaximal power. Assuming that one cannot maintain the maximum power
    for very long due to endurance issues, most riding must be done at some number less than
    maximum power. One could say that for a 40 k TT optimum power is 80% of max or for 100 miles
    70% of max. It would be easy them to move the dark blue line down to reflect these levels but
    if one does so then one gets two optimum cadences, one at around 80 or so and the other around
    200 or so. According to this analysis these cadences should be equally optimal. I look forward
    to hearing from someone hear who would make that claim. Therefore, there is a flaw in the
    analysis. I believe I know what it is in that it doesn't take into account the energy required
    to make the pedals go around. I know many here believe this is zero but, if it is, how else can
    one account for this flaw in the analysis?

    The analysis has nothing to do with endurance/metabolism, or even with optimum cadence - it has to
    do with the role of strength in determining power output.

    Andy Coggan

  8. Charles Beristain said:

    Andy: I find the conclusions very intriguing. In my group of riding friends... I need at least one
    gear lower to accomplish the same task. There was a time I was stronger then they were... but they
    all started weight training and cross training. I stick to riding 7 days a week all year 'round. It
    really bugs me that I can't climb some really technical sections (MTB) they they can, because they
    higher gearing they can use gives them a slightly faster speed/more momentum to get over the
    obstacles.

    Any hints on how i can increase my pedaling strength on the short technical climbs?

    You can still lift to get bigger legs, which will make you stronger.

    Unfortunately you have to haul them uphill.

    I like the weight training suggestions in _Performance_Cycling_ by Dan Morris. He has you lift for
    hypertrophy, and then switch to lower weight/higher speed lifting and phases in hard low-cadence
    intervals to create cycling specific strength.

    Solely focusing on your 1RM in the squat will not make you a fast cyclist - I'm proof.

    --

    Scott Johnson "be a man ,stop looking for handouts , eat ,lift and shut your mouth" -John Carlo

  9. "Phil Holman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    How can you not admit that you were completely wrong in defending


    your use

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of the term velocity?

    Simple: because I wasn't. I specified a direction ("circumferential"😉, meaning that what I was
    speaking about was indeed velocity, not just


    speed.

    A nice semantic argument. In this situation we either have instantaneous tangential velocity or
    circumferential speed. As the direction and pathway is clearly defined at any point on the pedal
    arc, a simply stated pedal velocity (taken as instantaneous tangential) is acceptable. However,
    you won't see the combination of terms *circumferential velocity* used in any of the better
    physics references even though it is regularly (incorrectly) used by physicists. In one dimension,
    velocity is dx/dt and in two dimensions, sqrt(dx^2+dy^2)/dt which, when we look at the average
    pedal velocity for one revolution (in the reference frame of the bicycle), is zero. The pedal
    velocity over any arc length of the circle is therefore not the same as the circumferential speed
    along that arc.

    I don't follow your argument here - but in any case, I find it telling that according to you,
    circumferential velocity is regularly used by physicists, even though you dispute its correctness.

    Andy Coggan

  10. Shayne, We are not talking about imaginary numbers here. If you prefer to call it science that we
    ignore results we don't like or can't explain so be it. You are not alone in this regards. I don't
    see why the higher cadence is necessarily the "unphysical" one. Lots of people here would argue that
    higher cadences are better than lower cadences because they "flush out the lactic acid", even though
    there is no good science to back that claim up either.

    Frank

    "Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:> This conclusion does not
    follow. There are lots of examples in physics where

    Quoted message said:

    you throw out the "unphysical" solution, which is just an artifact of the method of computation.

    Shayne Wissler

  11. "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Phil Holman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    > How can you not admit that you were completely wrong in


    defending

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    your use

    Quoted message said:

    > of the term velocity?

    Simple: because I wasn't. I specified a direction


    ("circumferential"😉,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    meaning that what I was speaking about was indeed velocity, not


    just

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    speed.

    A nice semantic argument. In this situation we either have


    instantaneous

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    tangential velocity or circumferential speed. As the direction and pathway is clearly defined
    at any point on the pedal arc, a simply stated pedal velocity (taken as instantaneous
    tangential) is


    acceptable.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    However, you won't see the combination of terms *circumferential velocity* used in any of the
    better physics references even though


    it is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    regularly (incorrectly) used by physicists. In one dimension,


    velocity

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is dx/dt and in two dimensions, sqrt(dx^2+dy^2)/dt which, when we


    look

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    at the average pedal velocity for one revolution (in the reference


    frame

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of the bicycle), is zero. The pedal velocity over any arc length of


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    circle is therefore not the same as the circumferential speed along


    that

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    arc.

    I don't follow your argument here - but in any case, I find it telling


    that

    Quoted message said:

    according to you, circumferential velocity is regularly used by


    physicists,

    Quoted message said:

    even though you dispute its correctness.

    Just as they regularly and incorrectly flip flop speed and velocity. Just because they do so doesn't
    mean it's correct. Velocity being a vector, requires a frame of reference with a coordinate system
    and there is no system defined that would explain circumferential velocity in the way you intended
    (constant speed).

    Phil Holman

  12. "Top Sirloin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I like the weight training suggestions in _Performance_Cycling_ by Dan


    Morris.

    Quoted message said:

    He has you lift for hypertrophy, and then switch to lower weight/higher


    speed

    Quoted message said:

    lifting and phases in hard low-cadence intervals to create cycling


    specific

    Quoted message said:

    strength.

    I think you mean Dave Morris (another exercise physiologist, BTW). Anyway, I'd even take one step
    further: lift for hypertrophy, then go straight to velocity-specific training on the bike (e.g., if
    you're a sprinter, practice sprinting, if you're an off-road racer who needs to be able to grind up
    steep pitches, practice grinding up steep pitches, etc.).

    Andy Coggan

  13. "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    To put it more simply: non-endurance track racers better be lifting


    really

    Quoted message said:

    heavy weights, to grow big muscles. For anybody else, weight


    training can't

    Quoted message said:

    be considered a requirement (or even necessarily useful).

    And this is the crux of the entire matter and something that I'd suspected but for which I hadn't
    any proof.

    So, I ride my road bike up hills peddling as fast as I can and seem to gain no climbing ability at
    all. A couple of times a week I ride my MTB up REALLY steep hills that require me to be in the 24/32
    and I'm barely able to turn the pedals over and keep the bike balanced and my cadence starts going
    up everywhere and my speed and stamina increase.

    So what the hell is with that?

  14. "Phil Holman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Phil Holman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...
    > "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > "]news:[email hidden]...
    >
    > > How can you not admit that you were completely wrong in


    defending

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    your use
    > > of the term velocity?
    >
    > Simple: because I wasn't. I specified a direction


    ("circumferential"😉,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > meaning that what I was speaking about was indeed velocity, not


    just

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    speed.

    A nice semantic argument. In this situation we either have


    instantaneous

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    tangential velocity or circumferential speed. As the direction and pathway is clearly defined
    at any point on the pedal arc, a simply stated pedal velocity (taken as instantaneous
    tangential) is


    acceptable.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    However, you won't see the combination of terms *circumferential velocity* used in any of the
    better physics references even though


    it is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    regularly (incorrectly) used by physicists. In one dimension,


    velocity

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is dx/dt and in two dimensions, sqrt(dx^2+dy^2)/dt which, when we


    look

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    at the average pedal velocity for one revolution (in the reference


    frame

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of the bicycle), is zero. The pedal velocity over any arc length of


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    circle is therefore not the same as the circumferential speed along


    that

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    arc.

    I don't follow your argument here - but in any case, I find it telling


    that

    Quoted message said:

    according to you, circumferential velocity is regularly used by


    physicists,

    Quoted message said:

    even though you dispute its correctness.

    Just as they regularly and incorrectly flip flop speed and velocity. Just because they do so
    doesn't mean it's correct.

    There are also physiologists that take exception to the term "eccentric contraction" - but there's
    no universal agreement on that, either.

    Quoted message said:

    Velocity being a vector, requires a frame of reference

    Around the circumference of the pedal circle.

    Quoted message said:

    with a coordinate system and there is no system defined that would explain circumferential
    velocity in the way you intended (constant speed).

    I never claimed that the pedal moves at a constant speed.

    Andy Coggan

  15. I was hoping that Ilan's objection was purposefully exemplary -- that is that by illustrating his
    objection to the jargonist mouthful "circumferential pedal velocity" with a giant 4D helix he was
    showing just how unwieldable -- unspeakable even -- specificities can become in the hands of
    sophisticates. Is not "pedal speed" *most* usefully descriptive in this context? One of the most
    important things for a teacher to know is what to allow to be simple.

    Kirby.

    "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Benjamin Weiner <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3fb5beee$1@darkstar>...

    Quoted message said:
    Ilan Vardi said:

    Once again, I use an opportunity to differentiate myself from most scientists by admitting
    when I have made a mistake.

    Ilan, you're not a scientist. You are a mathematician.

    This is true, but both share the fact that correctness is most important.

    -ilan

  16. "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Phil Holman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Phil Holman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...
    >
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > "]news:[email hidden]...
    > > "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > > "]news:[email hidden]...
    > >
    > > > How can you not admit that you were completely wrong in


    defending

    Quoted message said:

    > your use
    > > > of the term velocity?
    > >
    > > Simple: because I wasn't. I specified a direction


    ("circumferential"😉,

    Quoted message said:

    > > meaning that what I was speaking about was indeed velocity,


    not

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    just

    Quoted message said:

    > speed.
    >
    > A nice semantic argument. In this situation we either have


    instantaneous

    Quoted message said:

    > tangential velocity or circumferential speed. As the direction


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > pathway is clearly defined at any point on the pedal arc, a


    simply

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > stated pedal velocity (taken as instantaneous tangential) is


    acceptable.

    Quoted message said:

    > However, you won't see the combination of terms *circumferential velocity* used in any of
    > the better physics references even


    though

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it is

    Quoted message said:

    > regularly (incorrectly) used by physicists. In one dimension,


    velocity

    Quoted message said:

    > is dx/dt and in two dimensions, sqrt(dx^2+dy^2)/dt which, when


    we

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    look

    Quoted message said:

    > at the average pedal velocity for one revolution (in the


    reference

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    frame

    Quoted message said:

    > of the bicycle), is zero. The pedal velocity over any arc length


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the

    Quoted message said:

    > circle is therefore not the same as the circumferential speed


    along

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that

    Quoted message said:

    > arc.

    I don't follow your argument here - but in any case, I find it


    telling

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that

    Quoted message said:

    according to you, circumferential velocity is regularly used by


    physicists,

    Quoted message said:

    even though you dispute its correctness.

    Just as they regularly and incorrectly flip flop speed and velocity. Just because they do so
    doesn't mean it's correct.

    There are also physiologists that take exception to the term


    "eccentric

    Quoted message said:

    contraction" - but there's no universal agreement on that, either.

    Quoted message said:

    Velocity being a vector, requires a frame of reference

    Around the circumference of the pedal circle.

    And the origin is?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with a coordinate system and there is no system defined that would explain circumferential
    velocity in


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    way you intended (constant speed).

    I never claimed that the pedal moves at a constant speed.

    If I pick a circumferential velocity of 2m/s off your chart. I think your intent is the speed will
    be constant within the small accelerations/decelerations due to the variation in pedal force at a
    given power output. I take it your term "circumferential velocity" is meant as the average
    instantaneous tangential velocity of the pedal at this power output.

    Phil Holman

  17. "Kirby Krieger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I was hoping that Ilan's objection was purposefully exemplary -- that is


    that by illustrating his

    Quoted message said:

    objection to the jargonist mouthful "circumferential pedal velocity" with


    a giant 4D helix he was

    Quoted message said:

    showing just how unwieldable -- unspeakable even -- specificities can


    become in the hands of

    Quoted message said:

    sophisticates. Is not "pedal speed" *most* usefully descriptive in this


    context? One of the most

    Quoted message said:

    important things for a teacher to know is what to allow to be simple.

    Kirby.


    My thoughts exactly. My question is: who is the article written for? Scientists or cyclists?

  18. I understand what you intended. I simply expanded the analysis in what I thought was a logical
    extension and found, what I believed to be an illogical conclusion. How does your analysis look at
    strength when being used submaximally? Would your model predict that strength training would be
    beneficial for improving aerobic (submaximal) performance? How does that analysis work using the
    model you used? In your paper you do mention optimum cadence for maximum power so my bringing up
    what the model predicts for cadence at submaximal power is not beyond the pale.

    Frank

    "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Frank Day" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The analysis has nothing to do with endurance/metabolism, or even with optimum cadence - it has to
    do with the role of strength in determining power output.

    Andy Coggan

  19. "GWB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Kirby Krieger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I was hoping that Ilan's objection was purposefully exemplary -- that is


    that by illustrating his

    Quoted message said:

    objection to the jargonist mouthful "circumferential pedal velocity"


    with

    Quoted message said:

    a giant 4D helix he was

    Quoted message said:

    showing just how unwieldable -- unspeakable even -- specificities can


    become in the hands of

    Quoted message said:

    sophisticates. Is not "pedal speed" *most* usefully descriptive in this


    context? One of the most

    Quoted message said:

    important things for a teacher to know is what to allow to be simple.

    Kirby.


    My thoughts exactly. My question is: who is the article written for? Scientists or cyclists?

    A little of both, actually. Hence the adherence to scientific convention re. the means of data
    presentation.

    Andy Coggan

  20. "Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Since this comes up over and over and over again on multiple forums, I thought I'd try to clear up
    some of the confusion:

    home.earthlink.netid4.html

    I don't want to take away the value of your article; I think it is great to have for reference when
    the subject comes up.

    What I want to ask you is, who ever claimed that increasing strength would automatically
    increase power?

    I can remember several years ago (?) when talking about this, there were a few folks that testified
    weight training helped them gain power. Your reaction made me believe you thought that was not
    possible. Was this simply a case of misunderstanding?

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