Why not Titanium?

Catabolic Jones said:

Just curious, as a relative newb, why the fetishistic adherence to carbon fibre? Doesn't Titanium have its virtues?

I should, in a year or so, have enough $$$ for a serious bike, and I'm sort of torn between two Canadian makers, Epic (Everti) and Cervelo.

Any input is appreciated (prolly going between two models, the Falcon and the R2.5)...

Either one can make a good bike.It's whatever spins your beanie fastest.

I was in a similar position a while back (a while being 12-ish years). I was in the market for a high-end frameset, and I was riding everything. My LBS was trying to sell me a Merlin Ti, because he was a big Merlin fan and had one himself. But he was an older guy, and a bit lighter than myself. On top of that, I was coming off of a Cannondale Criterium frameset, so I was used to *stiff*.

Well, I finally rode a Merlin, after having ridden a Trek OCLV and a Kestrel. While it was a nice, smooth ride, the one characteristic that was the most obvious to me was the frame flex. I did a few hard climbs on my test ride, and the thing was really a noodle. It really soaked up the bumps though, but I felt that at my weight and my riding style, I needed something stiffer.

My LBS salesperson mentioned that there was a version of the Merlin called the "Extralight" which had oversize tubes and was stiffer. The problem was that at $2499 for the frame (w/ alum fork) it was considerably more expensive than the carbon frames. So I wrote that off and settled on the OCLV, which was notably stiffer than the Kestrel, but still had good rough road behavior.

Were there stiffer Ti frames (perhaps a Lightspeed) that I hadn't considered? Probably. But the Trek fit me, and I really liked the way it rode, and the price was right, so I got it. I'm still riding it today, and it's now on it's 2nd Dura-Ace groupset.

My advice to you would be to do what I did (if you can). Ride the bikes back-to-back and base your decision on feel and fit. Fit is important. Ti is a great material to make a bike out of, and I'd bet you'd be very happy with either material.

cydewaze said:

My LBS salesperson mentioned that there was a version of the Merlin called the "Extralight" ...snip...Were there stiffer Ti frames (perhaps a Lightspeed)

Merlin = Litespeed = Q roo

http://americanbicyclegroup.com/

🙂

As other's have said, the only reliable answer you are likely to garner is from getting out and trying them for yourself. I ended up with a particular Ti frame, mainly because I liked the feel and handling of it better than anything else that I tried. (a Merlin Agilis; have found that model to have virtually no flex compared to my old Cannondale, but much less harsh, so apparently experiences differ). I have never really cared for the feel of the OCLV frames myself, though I have ridden a number of CF ones that I do like. You'll find great frames as well as lousy ones made out of just about any of the materials (admittedly I never have personally tried a bamboo one as of yet :p )

cydewaze said:

Well, I finally rode a Merlin, after having ridden a Trek OCLV and a Kestrel. While it was a nice, smooth ride, the one characteristic that was the most obvious to me was the frame flex. I did a few hard climbs on my test ride, and the thing was really a noodle. It really soaked up the bumps though, but I felt that at my weight and my riding style, I needed something stiffer.

I think titanium got a bit of a bad reputation because of some of those earlier frames. The flexy frames were a result of the tubing that was available at the time and the builders still learning how to use it. Newer ti frames still have the smooth ride without feeling like a sponge when you're out of the saddle. You can also get a slightly lighter carbon frame for the same price. Titanium usually works out to having a lower life cycle cost because unless you get it run over by a dump truck, you'll have that frame almost forever.

artmichalek said:

I think titanium got a bit of a bad reputation because of some of those earlier frames. The flexy frames were a result of the tubing that was available at the time and the builders still learning how to use it. Newer ti frames still have the smooth ride without feeling like a sponge when you're out of the saddle.

Nonsense...There are still flexy Ti frames being made .Usually the less expensive stuff with smaller diameter tubing....Read what the other poster said about a current Merlin....It also has alot to do with rider size and weight too.

Thanks for the input, guys. I likely will try as many as possible. The forewarning about over-flexy Ti frames is appreciated. I think the Epic/Everti bikes are pretty stiff, however.

Really got my eye on that R2.5 though; apart from the unappealing paint job, it seems to have all the right qualities.

jitteringjr said:

Merlin = Litespeed = Q roo

http://americanbicyclegroup.com/

🙂

Thanks, but I'm not sure if that was the case back in 1993 when I was test-riding em. 😉

boudreaux said:

Nonsense...There are still flexy Ti frames being made .Usually the less expensive stuff with smaller diameter tubing....Read what the other poster said about a current Merlin....It also has alot to do with rider size and weight too.

You mean about it having virtually no flex? Once again you've missed the point completely. Any frame has a lot to do with rider size and weight.
The question was, "Why not Titanium?". I was merely pointing out that the generalization of, "All titanium bikes are flexy.", does not always apply these days.

cydewaze said:

Thanks, but I'm not sure if that was the case back in 1993 when I was test-riding em. 😉

It wasn't. American Bicycle Group didn't buy out Merlin until 2000.

artmichalek said:

You mean about it having virtually no flex? Once again you've missed the point completely. Any frame has a lot to do with rider size and weight.
The question was, "Why not Titanium?". I was merely pointing out that the generalization of, "All titanium bikes are flexy.", does not always apply these days.

Gosh dang...If you wrote more clearly maybe someone could understand it more clearly....D'oh?

boudreaux said:

Nonsense...There are still flexy Ti frames being made .Usually the less expensive stuff with smaller diameter tubing....Read what the other poster said about a current Merlin....It also has alot to do with rider size and weight too.

Are there flexy Ti frames out there? Yes, but like anything else you get what you pay for. Like someone else said in this post, frame builders have learned more about Ti and technology has made working with it much easier. Tubes can be custom selected, shaped, and butted to give a frame a desired ride quality. I have ridden both Ti and carbon and found carbon to "dead" for my taste, while the Seven Axiom Ti I bought last year is stiff, comfortable, and smooth on the pavement. I also choose Ti over carbon b/c I have seen more carbon frames fail than Ti...come to think of it I've never seen a cracked Ti frame. So "why not Ti?"

KGnagey said:

..come to think of it I've never seen a cracked Ti frame. So "why not Ti?"

I have. Like sheot, it happens.

I rode a TREK 5500 OCLV for two seasons. I loved it and thought it was the stiffest thing out there. I came across a Litespeed Ghisallo and let me tell you, there is no comparison. I loved my TREK but the Litespeed is stupid stiff. It transfers ALL of the power to the road. I must say it absorbs the road shock (here in pothhole Pittsburgh, PA) better than anything. I race on the thing all the time and I've never had a flex issue to speak of. I can't speak to the "old" Ti frames but the newer ones sure do seem stiff enough. And as the last poster mentioned, I'll be able to hand it down to my son in 15 years.

chrispopovic said:

I rode a TREK 5500 OCLV for two seasons. I loved it and thought it was the stiffest thing out there. I came across a Litespeed Ghisallo and let me tell you, there is no comparison. I loved my TREK but the Litespeed is stupid stiff. It transfers ALL of the power to the road. I must say it absorbs the road shock (here in pothhole Pittsburgh, PA) better than anything. I race on the thing all the time and I've never had a flex issue to speak of. I can't speak to the "old" Ti frames but the newer ones sure do seem stiff enough. And as the last poster mentioned, I'll be able to hand it down to my son in 15 years.

Good to know. If anything happens to my OCLV, I've already decided that I'm going to try out a Ti bike. I'll add the one you mentioned to my test-ride list.

Litespeed, check.

boudreaux said:

I have. Like sheot, it happens.

I'm not saying Ti can't be broken. I just have never seen a Ti frame with a crack. On the other hand I have seen more than a few Carbon frames fail. Again anything built with quality should last. I bought Ti from my past experience and plan on having this frame for many many years to come.

KGnagey said:

I'm not saying Ti can't be broken. I just have never seen a Ti frame with a crack. On the other hand I have seen more than a few Carbon frames fail. Again anything built with quality should last. I bought Ti from my past experience and plan on having this frame for many many years to come.

In the early 90's there were loads of titanium frames which were flexy, even the most expensive ones were typically flexy because the tubing at the time was very limited, and in fact most builders did NOT understand how to work with the material to build adequately stiff bikes. That is for the most part a thing of the distant past. That said, the Trek OCLV carbon framesets from back then in the early 90's, certainly the pre 1997 models, were anything but super stiff bikes. Their stiffness was at best middle of the road for a typical "race" frame and the fork which all those OCLV frames used prior to 1997, the Icon Classic, was well known among riders and the industry as being a very flexy fork particularly felt by the rider during high speed descent turning. The Icon Air fork which was introduced in 1997 was a huge improvemnt in the overall stiffness of the OCLV frameset.

Nowadays, with the availability of titanium tubing greatly improved most quality titanium builders including Merlin have no problem producing frames which are more than stiff enough for most riders. Yes, there are still some real cheap flexy ti frames out there depending upon frame size, manufacturer and the rider placed on the frame, and likewise there are a good deal of flexy carbon fiber frames out there with the EXACT same flex issues given the right conditions.

Buy whichever floats your boat and do not listen to those who attempt to portray generalities about materials because they do not know what they are talking about. Any material can build a stiff bike and any material can build a flexy bike. Scott Moninger has no problems crushing opponents on climbs on a ti Moots Vamoots with no flex issues whatsoever as an example and that guy is putting out lots more power than most in here.

😉

cydewaze said:

I was in a similar position a while back (a while being 12-ish years). I was in the market for a high-end frameset, and I was riding everything. My LBS was trying to sell me a Merlin Ti, because he was a big Merlin fan and had one himself. But he was an older guy, and a bit lighter than myself. On top of that, I was coming off of a Cannondale Criterium frameset, so I was used to *stiff*.

Well, I finally rode a Merlin, after having ridden a Trek OCLV and a Kestrel. While it was a nice, smooth ride, the one characteristic that was the most obvious to me was the frame flex. I did a few hard climbs on my test ride, and the thing was really a noodle. It really soaked up the bumps though, but I felt that at my weight and my riding style, I needed something stiffer.

My LBS salesperson mentioned that there was a version of the Merlin called the "Extralight" which had oversize tubes and was stiffer. The problem was that at $2499 for the frame (w/ alum fork) it was considerably more expensive than the carbon frames. So I wrote that off and settled on the OCLV, which was notably stiffer than the Kestrel, but still had good rough road behavior.

Back in the early 1990's(up till 1994/5 I believe) , Merlin was using a 1" headtube(road and MTB) , and the integrated Merlin Bottom Bracket- which if you needed it serviced.. you had to send your frame BACK to Merlin to have the BB serviced :o 😕

I was seriously considering a friends MTB Merlin hardtail... that was about a 1991 model w/ the 1" headtube and BB situation. It was a sweet ride. I'm glad I did not buy it from him(due to having limited 1" fork options- Marzocchi is currently the only 1" steer producer .. from what I know- which is not a bad thing 😉 ) ..... but it was mainly the BB situation that turned me off.

Ti. has seriously come a long way in the last 15 years. In 1997 Seven Cycles started there operation ...... as the Merlin company started to dismantle.... and I'd say right there in 1996/7 is where Ti took some big leeps + bounds accross the board (US frame builders started to produce nicer stuff/ in general ...... and even Euro frame builders started dialing it in).

Like others have stated before, you basically get what you pay for- for most frame materials... and Ti. is no different. I knew a guy that was 6'4" ... and weighted about 230.. who road a Merlin Extralight- 1998 frame I believe..... with no problem. You do have to consider rider weight into the equation though.... the lighter , the better. If you are heavier.... go with something top end(Merlin Extralight... or a custom Seven ..... maybe an uper level Litespeed..... I.F. , etc.) ....... a TST, Dean, lower end Litespeed(Douglas??), or early Euro Ti. frame - I'd stay away from if your over 200 lbs. Also, seriously consider frame design/workmanship. For example: an early Euro Ti. frame- 1992-95 Colnago Bi-Titan..... nice frame overall - its a 6/4 Ti. frame custom drawn for Colnago.... should be fine for riders up to 200 lbs ...... but factor in how much use its gotten over the years(almost impossible to find a new/never used one).