Will a Chiropractic "Adjustment"...

MDD;

I'm curious as to why you chose CHINA over all the other countries to
ask (in a manner of speaking) if it escaped the 1918 Influenza Pandemic?
Did you actually think that its 4,000 years of acupuncture/herbal
history somehow gave it dispensation from the gods for this health
disaster? Well it didn't. So there.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Will a Chiropractic "Adjustment"...
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 1/29/2004 12:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Will a Chiropractic "Adjustment"...
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 1/28/2004 8:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

<[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> >From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
> >Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id:
>

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]

u

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
>
> <snip>
>
> >Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies, and
> >homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so, without

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >convincing results.
>
> >Peter Moran
> >
>
> *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut*

*reasonable*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> *significant* *credibile* *compelling*
>
> ZZzz.
>
> Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*, Peter Moran

won't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> believe it.
>
> God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare otherwise, he
would
> still be doubtful.
>
> Brainwashing is very powerful.

So shall we add "spinal manipulation is a cure for influenza" to your

nutty

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

beliefs, Jan? OK.

Peter Moran

Nope, not OK. My beliefs are not nutty, but you are wrong in stating no
cliniical studies have been done.

We add another organized medicine post from you.

Quoted message said:

>Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies, and
> >homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so, without

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >convincing results.
>
> >Peter Moran

Not true.

http://tinyurl.com/2qpfw

Jan, this is rubbish.

Point made!!

I'll add rubbish to the list.

Jan

Is Chiropractic Unscientific?

Mark Force, DCThe Elements of HealthScottsdale,
Arizonawww.theelementsofhealth.comcommon criticism of chiropractic care is that
scientific evidence does notsupport this type of health care and, as such,
chiropractic is withoutmerit. Recently, I ran across a study that may play a
part in helping to quellthis particular kind of criticism against the
chiropractic profession.Here is the abstract from this research
study:“Objective: To calculate the proportion of care delivered in a
chiropracticpractice supported by good-quality clinical trials.Design:
Retrospective survey.Methods: Data were collected from patient files relating
to 180 consecutivepatient visits in a suburban chiropractic practice in
northern Spain. Eachpatient's presenting complaint was paired with the
chiropractor's chosenprimary intervention. Based on a literature review
(Medline, Mantis, andnonautomated searches of local medical libraries), each
presentingcomplaint–primary intervention pairing was categorized according to
thelevel of supporting evidence as follows: Category I, intervention based
ongood quality clinical trial evidence; Category II, intervention based on
poor-quality or no clinical trial evidence. To distinguish between good- and
poor-quality clinical trials, studies were critically appraised and assigned
qualityscores.Results: Of the 180 cases surveyed, 123 (68.3%) (95% CI,
61.5%-75.1%)were based on clinical trials of good methodologic quality
(Category I). Only57 (31.7%) (95% CI, 24.9%-38.5%) of the cases were based on
poor-quality or no clinical trial evidence (Category II).Conclusions: When
patients were used as the denominator, the majority ofcases in a chiropractic
practice were cared for with interventions based onevidence from good-quality,
randomized clinical trials. When compared to themany other studies of similar
design that have evaluated the extent to whichdifferent medical specialties are
evidence based, chiropractic practice wasfound to have the highest proportion
of care (68.3%) supported by good-quality experimental evidence. (J
Manipulative Physiol Ther 2003;26:000)”Note: The underlining was added; full
article available
athttp://www2.us.elsevierhealth.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?action=searchDB&s
earchDBfor=iss&id=jpt030261&target=A
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Page 2
Many major medical journals have in the last few years contained
editorialswritten by medical (allopathic) physicians that claim that
complementary andalternative medicine (CAM) approaches to health care, such as
acupuncture,herbal medicine, hypnosis, etc., do not have scientific or clinical
evidence tosubstantiate them. These writers have universally included
chiropractic careas CAM.This study evaluated 180 consecutive patient visits of
one chiropractor forthe support from the scientific and peer-reviewed
literature for her treatmentmethods.The chiropractor is a graduate of an
American accredited chiropractic collegeand practices in Barcelona, Spain.
Since this is a retrospective study, thechiropractor didn’t know that her
records would be used for this study whileshe was treating the patients whose
notes comprised the study.The therapies used to treat the patients in this
study were evaluated forwhether or not they were supported by published
peer-review clinical studiesthat had a clinical methodology of solid design.It
is interesting to note that chiropractic care, when compared to many othertypes
of health care, showed the highest support from clinical studies. Thefindings
of this comparison are listed below:= Pediatric general surgery (11%)=
Inpatient general surgery (24%)= General practice (31%)= Inpatient general
medicine (53%)= Acute general psychiatry (65%)= Chiropractic practice (68%)=
Pediatric practice (40%)= Anesthesia practice (32%)= Internal medicine (65%)=
General practice (38%)= Dermatology (38%)= General practice (drug treatment)
(21%)= Hematology–oncology (24%)= Internal medicine (50%)It is important to
note that this is one study and even though the structure ofthe study appears
very sound from a research perspective, it is a pilot studycalling for more
complete research, with a larger sampling, to follow. Thisstudy is also not an
indictment of specialties that score with low percentagesfrom this study.
Practice ultimately is justifiably based on extensive andcritical observation
from clinical experience. Ultimately, more studies areneeded for all
specialties with regard to their outcomes, safety, effectiveness,and cost to
benefit.

http://www.wellnesstoday.com/news_from_the_chiropractor.htm

http://www.drlarrysmith.com/manga.htm

http://www.drlighttouch.com/newsletter2.html

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MDD;

I'm curious as to why you chose CHINA over all the other countries to
ask (in a manner of speaking) if it escaped the 1918 Influenza Pandemic?
Did you actually think that its 4,000 years of acupuncture/herbal
history somehow gave it dispensation from the gods for this health
disaster? Well it didn't. So there.

Oh, I donno, it just seemed like the right thing to do, considering the
players.

"mdd" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > >From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
> > >Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id:
> >
>

<[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so,

without

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very

Quoted message said:

> > >convincing results.
> >
> > >Peter Moran
> > >
> >
> > *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut*
*reasonable*
> > *significant* *credibile* *compelling*
> >
> > ZZzz.
> >
> > Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*, Peter

Moran

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

won't
> > believe it.
> >
> > God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare otherwise,

he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> would
> > still be doubtful.
> >
> > Brainwashing is very powerful.
>
>
> So shall we add "spinal manipulation is a cure for influenza" to

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nutty
> beliefs, Jan? OK.
>
> Peter Moran
> >
> > Jan
>
>
Dear Mr. Moran, have you ever seen anyone who was treated with

Chiropractic,

Quoted message said:

while suffering the "Flu"? If you have not, then you simply blow

smoke,

Quoted message said:

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you have NO evidence to the contrary.

Nonsense. What possible relevance would that have? Most patients with

the

Quoted message said:

flu recover with no active treatment. Am I to take it that in your

brand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of "science", if I had "seen anyone who was treated with Chiropractic"

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they did not die, I would have to conclude that chiropractice saved

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

life?

Only well-designed prospective studies could show that spinal

manipulation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reduces mortality from the flu.

Why bother? It is a completely implausible idea, and and there are

even

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very few chiropractors daring to make such claims.

Peter Moran

And thinking the way you do about it, keeps you from needing to find out.
How convenient.

It's a waste of time to test totally implausible hypotheses. But, if you
want to do the tests, I'm sure the NCCAM will give you money if you write a
grant.

--
Robert Bronsing

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:40188cbd$0$832$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-

Quoted message said:

Having said that, there were no useful treatments for either viral
infections or pheumonia or respiratory failure secondary to them in the
early 1900s.

Peter Moran

Did China have a problem with the "Great Flu Epidemic"? If not, why? Might
it be that the Chinese had effective methods to deal with such?

Sadly, no. You asked.

le moo

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:101j58l52fade2d@corp.

Quoted message said:

We are TOLD that many strains originate in China. You, nor I, do not KNOW
that to be true.

See, this is the thing that makes idiots like mdd so insufferable. Try to
get them to state any medical thing that they KNOW to be a fact and they
can't. At least, not by the same rules of evidence they imply are required
for any claim about a flku originating in China.

Quoted message said:

Who said "special"?
Sars may have just as likely originated in some lab somewhere far from
China. You, nor I, do not KNOW for sure.
You are not doing well in this debate, perhaps you should drop it.

Nope. I don't think so. You're an intellectual punching bag. But it's
worthwhile to see moronic-level arguments (like those which question beg the
definition of "KNOW"😉 dispatched now and then.

le moo

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Only well-designed prospective studies could show that spinal

manipulation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reduces mortality from the flu.

Why bother? It is a completely implausible idea, and and there are

even

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very few chiropractors daring to make such claims.

Peter Moran

And thinking the way you do about it, keeps you from needing to find out.
How convenient.

As PM points out, even the upper echelons of chiropractic don't claim, as
you do, that it has any effect on non musculoskeletal conditions. This
should give you pause. But I know it doesn't.

le m3

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, by far, that 1918 epidemic hit India the hardest, killing
about 20 million people. Interestingly, India had (& continues to have)
a HUGE HUGE homeopathic tradition with dispenseries all over that
country, from the smallest villages to the largest cities since the
early 1900's, which certainly would have been in place in 1918. I have
to wonder what went wrong.

Money? Competing with the other "healing" methods present at the time?

In India? You kidding? Do you know what the ratio of toilets to humans is
there? Public health is so far down the list of government, or any big
money, priorities that there's little danger of getting anything other than
homeopathic treatment. And the results are appalling.

moo

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 29, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 29, 2004" <[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in message news:[email hidden]...
> > Did China have a problem with the "Great Flu Epidemic"? If not,

why?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Might
> > it be that the Chinese had effective methods to deal with such?

> Now, can YOU document that the Flu Pandemic was as you claim in

China?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Remember, this is a claim that YOU made, and your proof is to be

readily

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> available, and verifiable. "My mommy told me so" is not proof.
>
>
>
Will you please explain exactly where I made any "claim" about the flu
pandemic in China? It looks like I asked a question about it. Or do

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

read

Quoted message said:

differently than the rest of the English speaking world?

You

Quoted message said:

are sputtering by the way.

Your question implied that China had no problem. However, the evidence

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just the contrary.

You should also note that many of the strains of flue originate in

China.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thus, the answer to your westion is that China does not have any special
treatment or dealing with the flu.

Oh, BTW, where did SARS originate?

Then why did you say that I made a claim?
As for implications, you may read into it what you want. And it is evident
that you do a lot of "reading into"
We are TOLD that many strains originate in China. You, nor I, do not KNOW
that to be true.
Who said "special"?
Sars may have just as likely originated in some lab somewhere far from
China. You, nor I, do not KNOW for sure.
You are not doing well in this debate, perhaps you should drop it.

Actually, I am. I have just shown how you weasel and write for deniability.

M-O-F.

Thank you for playing.

"Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > >From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
> > > >Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > > >Message-id:
> > >
> >
>

<[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > >Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so,

without

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very
> > > >convincing results.
> > >
> > > >Peter Moran
> > > >
> > >
> > > *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut*
> *reasonable*
> > > *significant* *credibile* *compelling*
> > >
> > > ZZzz.
> > >
> > > Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*, Peter

Moran

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> won't
> > > believe it.
> > >
> > > God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare

otherwise,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he

Quoted message said:

> > would
> > > still be doubtful.
> > >
> > > Brainwashing is very powerful.
> >
> >
> > So shall we add "spinal manipulation is a cure for influenza" to

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> nutty
> > beliefs, Jan? OK.
> >
> > Peter Moran
> > >
> > > Jan
> >
> >
> Dear Mr. Moran, have you ever seen anyone who was treated with
Chiropractic,
> while suffering the "Flu"? If you have not, then you simply blow

smoke,

Quoted message said:

as

Quoted message said:

> you have NO evidence to the contrary.

Nonsense. What possible relevance would that have? Most patients

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

flu recover with no active treatment. Am I to take it that in your

brand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of "science", if I had "seen anyone who was treated with Chiropractic"

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they did not die, I would have to conclude that chiropractice saved

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

life?

Only well-designed prospective studies could show that spinal

manipulation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reduces mortality from the flu.

Why bother? It is a completely implausible idea, and and there are

even

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very few chiropractors daring to make such claims.

Peter Moran

And thinking the way you do about it, keeps you from needing to find

out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How convenient.

It's a waste of time to test totally implausible hypotheses. But, if you
want to do the tests, I'm sure the NCCAM will give you money if you write

a

Quoted message said:

grant.

Orac posted a URL which led to the forms that need to be filled out to get a
grant in real medicine. If the NCCAM forms are as onerous, then mdd is just
going have to keep making things up as s/h/it goes.

"Mark ProbertJanuary 30, 2004" <[email hidden]> schreef
in bericht news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >
>

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > > "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > >From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
> > > > >Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > > > >Message-id:
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

<[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > >Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical

studies,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

> > > > >homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so,

without

Quoted message said:

> very
> > > > >convincing results.
> > > >
> > > > >Peter Moran
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut*
> > *reasonable*
> > > > *significant* *credibile* *compelling*
> > > >
> > > > ZZzz.
> > > >
> > > > Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*, Peter

Moran

Quoted message said:

> > won't
> > > > believe it.
> > > >
> > > > God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare

otherwise,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he
> > > would
> > > > still be doubtful.
> > > >
> > > > Brainwashing is very powerful.
> > >
> > >
> > > So shall we add "spinal manipulation is a cure for influenza"

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your

Quoted message said:

> > nutty
> > > beliefs, Jan? OK.
> > >
> > > Peter Moran
> > > >
> > > > Jan
> > >
> > >
> > Dear Mr. Moran, have you ever seen anyone who was treated with
> Chiropractic,
> > while suffering the "Flu"? If you have not, then you simply blow

smoke,

Quoted message said:

as
> > you have NO evidence to the contrary.
>
> Nonsense. What possible relevance would that have? Most patients

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
> flu recover with no active treatment. Am I to take it that in your

brand

Quoted message said:

> of "science", if I had "seen anyone who was treated with

Chiropractic"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

> they did not die, I would have to conclude that chiropractice saved

their

Quoted message said:

> life?
>
> Only well-designed prospective studies could show that spinal

manipulation

Quoted message said:

> reduces mortality from the flu.
>
> Why bother? It is a completely implausible idea, and and there are

even

Quoted message said:

> very few chiropractors daring to make such claims.
>
> Peter Moran
>
>
And thinking the way you do about it, keeps you from needing to find

out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How convenient.

It's a waste of time to test totally implausible hypotheses. But, if you
want to do the tests, I'm sure the NCCAM will give you money if you

write

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

grant.

Orac posted a URL which led to the forms that need to be filled out to get

a

Quoted message said:

grant in real medicine. If the NCCAM forms are as onerous, then mdd is

just

Quoted message said:

going have to keep making things up as s/h/it goes.

And s/h/it goes ;-)

--
Robert Bronsing

"Mark ProbertJanuary 30, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 29, 2004" <[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Mark ProbertJanuary 29, 2004" <[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

> in message news:[email hidden]...
> > > Did China have a problem with the "Great Flu Epidemic"? If not,

why?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Might
> > > it be that the Chinese had effective methods to deal with such?
>
> > Now, can YOU document that the Flu Pandemic was as you claim in

China?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Remember, this is a claim that YOU made, and your proof is to be

readily

Quoted message said:

> > available, and verifiable. "My mommy told me so" is not proof.
> >
> >
> >
> Will you please explain exactly where I made any "claim" about the

flu

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> pandemic in China? It looks like I asked a question about it. Or do

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

read
> differently than the rest of the English speaking world?
You
> are sputtering by the way.

Your question implied that China had no problem. However, the evidence

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just the contrary.

You should also note that many of the strains of flue originate in

China.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thus, the answer to your westion is that China does not have any

special

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

treatment or dealing with the flu.

Oh, BTW, where did SARS originate?

Then why did you say that I made a claim?
As for implications, you may read into it what you want. And it is

evident

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that you do a lot of "reading into"
We are TOLD that many strains originate in China. You, nor I, do not

KNOW

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that to be true.
Who said "special"?
Sars may have just as likely originated in some lab somewhere far from
China. You, nor I, do not KNOW for sure.
You are not doing well in this debate, perhaps you should drop it.

Actually, I am. I have just shown how you weasel and write for

deniability.

Quoted message said:

M-O-F.

Thank you for playing.

Too late marki, you lost the debate a few posts back.

"Mark ProbertJanuary 30, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >
>

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > > "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > >From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
> > > > >Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > > > >Message-id:
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

<[email hidden]

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Quoted message said:

> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > >Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical

studies,

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and

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> > > > >homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so,

without

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> very
> > > > >convincing results.
> > > >
> > > > >Peter Moran
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut*
> > *reasonable*
> > > > *significant* *credibile* *compelling*
> > > >
> > > > ZZzz.
> > > >
> > > > Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*, Peter

Moran

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> > won't
> > > > believe it.
> > > >
> > > > God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare

otherwise,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he
> > > would
> > > > still be doubtful.
> > > >
> > > > Brainwashing is very powerful.
> > >
> > >
> > > So shall we add "spinal manipulation is a cure for influenza"

to

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Quoted message said:

your

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> > nutty
> > > beliefs, Jan? OK.
> > >
> > > Peter Moran
> > > >
> > > > Jan
> > >
> > >
> > Dear Mr. Moran, have you ever seen anyone who was treated with
> Chiropractic,
> > while suffering the "Flu"? If you have not, then you simply blow

smoke,

Quoted message said:

as
> > you have NO evidence to the contrary.
>
> Nonsense. What possible relevance would that have? Most patients

with

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Quoted message said:

the
> flu recover with no active treatment. Am I to take it that in your

brand

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> of "science", if I had "seen anyone who was treated with

Chiropractic"

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Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

> they did not die, I would have to conclude that chiropractice saved

their

Quoted message said:

> life?
>
> Only well-designed prospective studies could show that spinal

manipulation

Quoted message said:

> reduces mortality from the flu.
>
> Why bother? It is a completely implausible idea, and and there are

even

Quoted message said:

> very few chiropractors daring to make such claims.
>
> Peter Moran
>
>
And thinking the way you do about it, keeps you from needing to find

out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How convenient.

It's a waste of time to test totally implausible hypotheses. But, if you
want to do the tests, I'm sure the NCCAM will give you money if you

write

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

grant.

Orac posted a URL which led to the forms that need to be filled out to get

a

Quoted message said:

grant in real medicine. If the NCCAM forms are as onerous, then mdd is

just

Quoted message said:

going have to keep making things up as s/h/it goes.

You guys are so interested in money and what you call research, why don't
you do it? I do not need to, I already have sufficient evidence for my
needs.

Quoted message said:

MDD;

I'm curious as to why you chose CHINA over all the other countries to
ask (in a manner of speaking) if it escaped the 1918 Influenza Pandemic?
Did you actually think that its 4,000 years of acupuncture/herbal
history somehow gave it dispensation from the gods for this health
disaster? Well it didn't. So there.

Indeed, China has had at least its share of epidemics during the past 4000
years. Acupuncture and Herbal medicine are fairly good palliative measures,
but they are not on the level of flu shots, which are preventative.

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 30, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 29, 2004" <[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in message news:[email hidden]...
>
> "mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "Mark ProbertJanuary 29, 2004"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wrote
> > in message news:[email hidden]...
> > > > Did China have a problem with the "Great Flu Epidemic"? If

not,

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Quoted message said:

why?

Quoted message said:

> > Might
> > > > it be that the Chinese had effective methods to deal with

such?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > > Now, can YOU document that the Flu Pandemic was as you claim in

China?

Quoted message said:

> > > Remember, this is a claim that YOU made, and your proof is to be
readily
> > > available, and verifiable. "My mommy told me so" is not proof.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Will you please explain exactly where I made any "claim" about the

flu

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > pandemic in China? It looks like I asked a question about it. Or

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you

Quoted message said:

> read
> > differently than the rest of the English speaking world?
> You
> > are sputtering by the way.
>
> Your question implied that China had no problem. However, the

evidence

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Quoted message said:

is

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> just the contrary.
>
> You should also note that many of the strains of flue originate in

China.

Quoted message said:

>
> Thus, the answer to your westion is that China does not have any

special

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> treatment or dealing with the flu.
>
> Oh, BTW, where did SARS originate?
>
>
>
Then why did you say that I made a claim?
As for implications, you may read into it what you want. And it is

evident

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that you do a lot of "reading into"
We are TOLD that many strains originate in China. You, nor I, do not

KNOW

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that to be true.
Who said "special"?
Sars may have just as likely originated in some lab somewhere far from
China. You, nor I, do not KNOW for sure.
You are not doing well in this debate, perhaps you should drop it.

Actually, I am. I have just shown how you weasel and write for

deniability.

Quoted message said:

M-O-F.

Thank you for playing.

Too late marki, you lost the debate a few posts back.

Only you would "think" that.

Again, thanks for playing.

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 30, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > "mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > > "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > >
> >
>

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >
> > > > "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > >From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
> > > > > >Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > > > > >Message-id:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

<[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > >Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical

studies,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> > > > > >homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so,
without
> > very
> > > > > >convincing results.
> > > > >
> > > > > >Peter Moran
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut*
> > > *reasonable*
> > > > > *significant* *credibile* *compelling*
> > > > >
> > > > > ZZzz.
> > > > >
> > > > > Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*,

Peter

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Moran
> > > won't
> > > > > believe it.
> > > > >
> > > > > God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare

otherwise,

Quoted message said:

> he
> > > > would
> > > > > still be doubtful.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brainwashing is very powerful.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So shall we add "spinal manipulation is a cure for influenza"

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your
> > > nutty
> > > > beliefs, Jan? OK.
> > > >
> > > > Peter Moran
> > > > >
> > > > > Jan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Dear Mr. Moran, have you ever seen anyone who was treated with
> > Chiropractic,
> > > while suffering the "Flu"? If you have not, then you simply blow
smoke,
> as
> > > you have NO evidence to the contrary.
> >
> > Nonsense. What possible relevance would that have? Most

patients

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with

Quoted message said:

> the
> > flu recover with no active treatment. Am I to take it that in

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

brand
> > of "science", if I had "seen anyone who was treated with

Chiropractic"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> > they did not die, I would have to conclude that chiropractice

saved

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their
> > life?
> >
> > Only well-designed prospective studies could show that spinal
manipulation
> > reduces mortality from the flu.
> >
> > Why bother? It is a completely implausible idea, and and there

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even
> > very few chiropractors daring to make such claims.
> >
> > Peter Moran
> >
> >
> And thinking the way you do about it, keeps you from needing to find

out.

Quoted message said:

> How convenient.

It's a waste of time to test totally implausible hypotheses. But, if

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

want to do the tests, I'm sure the NCCAM will give you money if you

write

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

grant.

Orac posted a URL which led to the forms that need to be filled out to

get

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

grant in real medicine. If the NCCAM forms are as onerous, then mdd is

just

Quoted message said:

going have to keep making things up as s/h/it goes.

You guys are so interested in money and what you call research, why don't
you do it?

That would be a conflict of interest. I prefer to remain unconflicted.

Now, if anyone wants to claim I have a conflcit of interest, they should
feel free to prove where I get funds from.

I do not need to, I already have sufficient evidence for my

Quoted message said:

needs.

"Mark ProbertJanuary 30, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 30, 2004" <[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Mark ProbertJanuary 29, 2004" <[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

> in message news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > > "Mark ProbertJanuary 29, 2004"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> wrote
> > > in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Did China have a problem with the "Great Flu Epidemic"? If

not,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

why?
> > > Might
> > > > > it be that the Chinese had effective methods to deal with

such?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > > > Now, can YOU document that the Flu Pandemic was as you claim

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

China?
> > > > Remember, this is a claim that YOU made, and your proof is to

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> readily
> > > > available, and verifiable. "My mommy told me so" is not proof.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Will you please explain exactly where I made any "claim" about

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

flu

Quoted message said:

> > > pandemic in China? It looks like I asked a question about it. Or

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you
> > read
> > > differently than the rest of the English speaking world?
> > You
> > > are sputtering by the way.
> >
> > Your question implied that China had no problem. However, the

evidence

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is
> > just the contrary.
> >
> > You should also note that many of the strains of flue originate in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

China.
> >
> > Thus, the answer to your westion is that China does not have any

special

Quoted message said:

> > treatment or dealing with the flu.
> >
> > Oh, BTW, where did SARS originate?
> >
> >
> >
> Then why did you say that I made a claim?
> As for implications, you may read into it what you want. And it is

evident

Quoted message said:

> that you do a lot of "reading into"
> We are TOLD that many strains originate in China. You, nor I, do not

KNOW

Quoted message said:

> that to be true.
> Who said "special"?
> Sars may have just as likely originated in some lab somewhere far

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> China. You, nor I, do not KNOW for sure.
> You are not doing well in this debate, perhaps you should drop it.

Actually, I am. I have just shown how you weasel and write for

deniability.

Quoted message said:

M-O-F.

Thank you for playing.

Too late marki, you lost the debate a few posts back.

Only you would "think" that.

Again, thanks for playing.

Ah, the little boy, marki, wants to have the last word, so to go to bed
tonight believing he won something.
Sleep tight sweetums.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Will a Chiropractic "Adjustment"...
From: "mdd" [email hidden]
Date: 1/29/04 10:38 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Did you actually think that its 4,000 years of acupuncture/herbal
history somehow gave it dispensation from the gods for this health
disaster? Well it didn't. So there.

Oh, I donno, it just seemed like the right thing to do, considering the
players.

The nation that did not suffer from the flu pandemic of 1918 was Denmark

A medical doctor was put in charge of feeding the people during WW1. I think
his name was Henhede, or something like that.
He had all the animals shot and gave the food to the people, thus converting
the whole nation to living as vegetarians.

Denmark did not suffer from the flu pandemic.

Guess why?

DrC PhD

"DRCEEPHD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

The nation that did not suffer from the flu pandemic of 1918 was Denmark

A medical doctor was put in charge of feeding the people during WW1. I

think

Quoted message said:

his name was Henhede, or something like that.

Sure nutbar. I see you, as usual, neglected to cite anything resembling a
source.

Quoted message said:

He had all the animals shot and gave the food to the people, thus

converting

Quoted message said:

the whole nation to living as vegetarians.

Hallucinatory. Cute. But very strange.

le moo

Lordy, can we NEVER escape Dr. "C''s Tall Tales???

M. Hindhede, who apparently was employed by something called The
Laboratory for Nutrition Research in Copenhagen, wrote a paper on the
effects of food rationing in that country due to WWI shipping embargoes
by the Germans in 1920. He (or maybe she) gave no title or credentials,
and definitely was not in charge of killing all animals in Demark since
his/her paper clearly indicates that the farmers of that country
continued to eat pork, but beef was only available to the very rich.
He/she also seemed to think that less beer & spirits contributed to the
lower mortality rate (his/her conclusion) from October 1918- March 1919.
Although I may have missed it, I saw no reference whatsoever to the 1918
Influenza Epidemic in Denmark in his/her 1920 paper.

BTW, Queen Alexandria of Denmark was one of the rich & famous stricken
by that Pandemic, but did recover. Must have been that cheeseburger.