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Winter clothing

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
26 November 2007
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3 December 2007
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Dan
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  1. Hi,

    I am in need of some advice about running during winter. This is my
    first winter season that I am going to attempt running in. I have
    already done a few runs this winter with regular clothing (cotton t-
    shirt, cotton sweater, nylon jacket) which really did not turn out
    well. Half way through my run the sweat absorbed by the clothing
    starts chilling me and makes it difficult to run. So, my question is,
    dose anybody have any specific suggestions as to what clothing I
    should purchase? I will need the clothing to be decently reflective
    (as I always run at night) and it must be able to 'wick' away sweat.

    Any help in the above will be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Dan

  2. Dan said:

    Hi,

    I am in need of some advice about running during winter. This is my
    first winter season that I am going to attempt running in. I have
    already done a few runs this winter with regular clothing (cotton t-
    shirt, cotton sweater, nylon jacket) which really did not turn out
    well. Half way through my run the sweat absorbed by the clothing
    starts chilling me and makes it difficult to run. So, my question is,
    dose anybody have any specific suggestions as to what clothing I
    should purchase? I will need the clothing to be decently reflective
    (as I always run at night) and it must be able to 'wick' away sweat.

    Any help in the above will be greatly appreciated.

    Obvious advise: cotton is your enemy. Any running site will tell
    you what your closing should be. Putting aside marketing gimmick,
    your closing should go in layers.

  3. Sericinus hunter <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Svs2j.2173$Oe4.2010
    @newsfe10.lga:

    Quoted message said:

    Obvious advise by an idiot: cotton is your enemy. Any running site


    will tell

    Quoted message said:

    you what your closing should be. Putting aside marketing gimmick,
    your closing should go in layers.

    Jerkoff

  4. Dan said:

    Hi,

    I am in need of some advice about running during winter. This is my
    first winter season that I am going to attempt running in. I have
    already done a few runs this winter with regular clothing (cotton t-
    shirt, cotton sweater, nylon jacket) which really did not turn out
    well. Half way through my run the sweat absorbed by the clothing
    starts chilling me and makes it difficult to run. So, my question is,
    dose anybody have any specific suggestions as to what clothing I
    should purchase? I will need the clothing to be decently reflective
    (as I always run at night) and it must be able to 'wick' away sweat.

    You could move to Alaska and experience the balmy weather we've been
    having, courtesy of Pacific storm (and the rain of last week). I'm sure
    even cotton would work.🙁

    More seriously, how cold is "cold" - +50F in FL, -20F in MN? wind? are
    snow/ice an issue?

    If you're sweating that much to get clothes wet, you're probably dressed
    too heavily. Consider using layers and peel as needed. You will sweat
    somewhat, regardless of how minimal you go - it's part of the body being
    alive. You should start a little on the cool side, and you'll warm up -
    or start with shell and peel.

    This time of year you could probably find some great Chrismas sales at
    your local Wal-Mart / Target or whatever. Just look for synthetic,
    wicking clothes - stuff made from polyester, polypro, powerdry, etc.
    Even acrylic will be better than cotton. Particularly for pants, be sure
    to get something that's somewhat stretchy so you can move easily.
    Beanie-type hat, maybe an earband, mittens. REI is finishing a sale on
    Monday. Other spots to check are
    www.sierratradingpost.com
    www.campmor.com (good source for duofold stuff)

    FWIW, I generally start with a short-sleeve wicking t, regardless of
    season (have been know to peel down to this even in winter), then
    long-sleeve base or insulating layer, then shell. t shirt doesn't
    matter, but I like powerdry for base layer and Sporthill's Swift fabric
    (like their Infusion tops) for insulating since it breathes enough for
    running, but has enough wind resistance that a breeze doesn't whip
    through it. I like their Catalyst for colder temps (near 0F) - a little
    heavier and more wind resistant. Most shells worth getting (at least
    that I've seen) are windproof / non-breathable / not waterproof. If you
    can, I like them with pit-zips for ventilation, but seldom find that. I
    think I've seen a few shells that may not be completely windproof, but
    they still don't breathe. If I've got my layers right and it's not
    windy, I generally just carry the shell (we have wind come up quickly or
    even going to open field).

    On bottom, I like Sporthill XC pants (windproof to about 30mph),
    although they've changed the cut in recent years (more so for the women,
    which makes them too baggy). In cold weather, I may use tights of
    verying weights under them. If windy (above 30mph) or really cold (below
    -5F), I'll add windpants with full zips (get frosted on inside where
    condensation freezes).

    Socks - Smartwool of various weights.

    Since I usually run on trails, I worry more about getting good gear, and
    then worry about adding reflective stuff if needed. Checking cycling
    shops should turn up some reflective leg bands that can also be worn on
    arms. I think some even come with blinking lights. Reflective vests are
    probably the easiest solution.

    Enjoy!

    Dot

    --
    "A winner is just a loser who tried one more time." -Captain George M.
    Moore, Jr., United States Air Force (retired),
    http://www.avdlm.com/press.php?page=stories&storyid=1

  5. On 2007-11-26, Dan <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Here's a summary of what's been posted:

    http://www.panix.com/~elflord/running/winter_reviews/

    Cheers,
    --
    Elflord

  6. Elflord <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    On 2007-11-26, Dan <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Here's a summary of what's been posted:

    http://www.panix.com/~elflord/running/winter_reviews/mybuttocks

    Cheers,

    How narcisitic can you frikin' get? Geejus.

  7. [email hidden] wrote in news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Elflord <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    On 2007-11-26, Dan <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Here's a summary of what's been posted:

    http://www.panix.com/~elflord/running/winter_reviews/mybuttocks

    Cheers,

    How narcisitic can you frikin' get? Geejus.

    What a crappy site. I'm not even mentioned ONCE!

  8. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    What a crappy site. I'm not even mentioned ONCE!

    And likely will never be mentioned in any print medium. Even Larry Flint
    the grand poobah of sleaze finds your prose infantile.

    -DF

  9. "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I am in need of some advice about running during winter. This is my
    first winter season that I am going to attempt running in. I have
    already done a few runs this winter with regular clothing (cotton t-
    shirt, cotton sweater, nylon jacket) which really did not turn out
    well. Half way through my run the sweat absorbed by the clothing
    starts chilling me and makes it difficult to run. So, my question is,
    dose anybody have any specific suggestions as to what clothing I
    should purchase? I will need the clothing to be decently reflective
    (as I always run at night) and it must be able to 'wick' away sweat.

    Any help in the above will be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Dan

    In addition to the right clothing, be prepared to adjust as you go,
    simple things such as opening or closing a collar or zipper.

    -S-

  10. "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:5r0347F10cb2rU1
    @mid.individual.net:

    Quoted message said:

    In addition to the right clothing, be prepared to adjust as you go,
    simple things such as opening or closing a collar or zipper.

    -S-

    I have that problem too. Of course with me it's my zipper that keeps
    opening up, and "Mr Bill" falls out. It always seems to happen at the wrong
    times too, like around chics at the gym, playgrounds, Knebels lips, etc
    etc,

  11. "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:474ab474$0$28864
    [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    And likely will never be mentioned in any print medium.

    Hmm, me thinks you are really a DF, because I just read that somewhere...

    Quoted message said:

    Even Larry Flint
    the grand poobah of sleaze finds your prose infantile.

    -DF

    Ahh, but that means he reads it though, doesn't it? Now I have famous
    people reading my infintile prose, and not just DF's.

  12. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:5r0347F10cb2rU1
    @mid.individual.net:

    Quoted message said:

    In addition to the right clothing, be prepared to adjust as you go,
    simple things such as opening or closing a collar or zipper.

    -S-

    I have that problem too. Of course with me it's my zipper that keeps
    opening up, and "Mr Bill" falls out. It always seems to happen at the
    wrong
    times too, like around chics at the gym, playgrounds, Knebels lips,
    etc
    etc,

    <sigh> You're so predictable, and it's time for yet another of your
    email addresses to go off to the killfile on my computer.

    -S-

  13. "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I am in need of some advice about running during winter. This is my
    first winter season that I am going to attempt running in. I have
    already done a few runs this winter with regular clothing (cotton t-
    shirt, cotton sweater, nylon jacket) which really did not turn out
    well. Half way through my run the sweat absorbed by the clothing
    starts chilling me and makes it difficult to run. So, my question is,
    dose anybody have any specific suggestions as to what clothing I
    should purchase? I will need the clothing to be decently reflective
    (as I always run at night) and it must be able to 'wick' away sweat.

    Any help in the above will be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Dan

    In addition to everything everyone has already said...

    Though it may be far too warm for some folks for running, I really like my
    softshell top over very thin base layer for windy/wet 40s down to no wind
    30s. You may sweat a bit, but toward the end of that long run you'll still
    be warm.

    My favorite top for 15-25f has been a loose fleece jacked that hangs down
    (no elastic waist), with a featherweight outdoor research nylon shell
    covering it. Wear both over a thin poly shirt. This system is very loose and
    lets the body breathe well, so you don't sweat but stay very warm and
    comfortable. It reminds me of the way an Eskimo parka is supposed to work.

    Don't use vests, they warm the core too much. If anything, wear arm warmers,
    especially if your hands get cold.

    Check carefully, but great deals can be had at:
    www.sierratradingpost.com

    -Tony

  14. Tony S. said:

    Though it may be far too warm for some folks for running, I really like my
    softshell top over very thin base layer for windy/wet 40s down to no wind
    30s.

    Cold rain always requires an extra layer of care, among other things. It is
    probably the hardest weather to dress for.

    What sort of soft shell top is it ?

    Quoted message said:

    You may sweat a bit, but toward the end of that long run you'll still
    be warm.

    My favorite top for 15-25f has been a loose fleece jacked that hangs down
    (no elastic waist), with a featherweight outdoor research nylon shell
    covering it. Wear both over a thin poly shirt. This system is very loose and
    lets the body breathe well, so you don't sweat but stay very warm and
    comfortable. It reminds me of the way an Eskimo parka is supposed to work.

    A bit of an overkill, but then, you're probably not in much danger of suffering
    from dehydration or heat exhaustion.

    Quoted message said:

    Don't use vests, they warm the core too much.

    Many/most running vests consist of a light "wind breaker" material in front,
    and a mesh back.

    None of the popular running vests "warm the core" nearly as much as wearing one
    warm jacket over another. So I don't understand how you conclude that they
    "warm the core too much".

    The advantage of vests is that they offer a good deal of wind protection without
    sacrificing breathability. You have airflow where you need it most and wind
    protection where you need it most. And they are usually much cheaper than soft
    shells.

    Quoted message said:

    If anything, wear arm warmers, especially if your hands get cold.

    The only advantage of arm warmers over say a long sleeve top is that they are
    easy to remove. This makes them useful for cyclists who can easily stuff half
    their clothes into the back of a cycling jersey. Cyclists often need to change
    during the ride, because both the cycling time and distance make for a
    reasonable probability that the weather conditions will vary substantially
    throughout the ride. Arm warmers are popular among cyclists but seldom worn by
    runners.

    If your hands get cold, you can always wear mitts and gloves. You should always
    wear windproof mitts if it's cold and windy.

    Cheers,
    --
    Elflord

  15. "Elflord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony S. said:

    Though it may be far too warm for some folks for running, I really like
    my
    softshell top over very thin base layer for windy/wet 40s down to no wind
    30s.

    Cold rain always requires an extra layer of care, among other things. It
    is
    probably the hardest weather to dress for.

    What sort of soft shell top is it ?

    It's a Mammut soft shell, model # unknown. Fighting an oncoming cold, I
    decided to wear it on Sunday's 1 hr 50 min run, even though it was mid to
    upper 40s. That worked very well with the front zipper open most of the way
    up from the bottom. Still got a bit sick but I don't think any clothing
    article would have prevented that completely.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You may sweat a bit, but toward the end of that long run you'll still
    be warm.

    My favorite top for 15-25f has been a loose fleece jacked that hangs down
    (no elastic waist), with a featherweight outdoor research nylon shell
    covering it. Wear both over a thin poly shirt. This system is very loose
    and
    lets the body breathe well, so you don't sweat but stay very warm and
    comfortable. It reminds me of the way an Eskimo parka is supposed to
    work.

    A bit of an overkill, but then, you're probably not in much danger of
    suffering
    from dehydration or heat exhaustion.

    When it's appropriately cold I don't sweat at all in that setup, just warm
    and comfortable. Lots of air circulation with the loose fit.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Don't use vests, they warm the core too much.

    Many/most running vests consist of a light "wind breaker" material in
    front,
    and a mesh back.

    None of the popular running vests "warm the core" nearly as much as
    wearing one
    warm jacket over another. So I don't understand how you conclude that they
    "warm the core too much".

    The advantage of vests is that they offer a good deal of wind protection
    without
    sacrificing breathability. You have airflow where you need it most and
    wind
    protection where you need it most. And they are usually much cheaper than
    soft
    shells.

    Obviously just my opinion. Everyone has to experiment to see what works for
    them. I've noticed that unlike during almost any other outdoor activity in
    wintertime, running tends to leave my arms and hands cold. I don't know why
    this is, but vests of any type that I've tried seem to exacerbate the
    problem.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If anything, wear arm warmers, especially if your hands get cold.

    The only advantage of arm warmers over say a long sleeve top is that they
    are
    easy to remove. This makes them useful for cyclists who can easily stuff
    half
    their clothes into the back of a cycling jersey. Cyclists often need to
    change
    during the ride, because both the cycling time and distance make for a
    reasonable probability that the weather conditions will vary substantially
    throughout the ride. Arm warmers are popular among cyclists but seldom
    worn by
    runners.

    Tell that to Ryan Hall and the others in the Olympic trials marathon who
    wore arm warmers.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    If your hands get cold, you can always wear mitts and gloves. You should
    always
    wear windproof mitts if it's cold and windy.

    Cheers,
    --
    Elflord

  16. Tony S. said:

    Obviously just my opinion. Everyone has to experiment to see what works for
    them. I've noticed that unlike during almost any other outdoor activity in
    wintertime, running tends to leave my arms and hands cold. I don't know why
    this is, but vests of any type that I've tried seem to exacerbate the
    problem.

    Are you saying that putting on a vest makes your hands and arms colder ?

    Again, I think the idea is to wear vests for wind protection, but not thermal
    insulation.

    The idea is to have a vest with a mesh or very light back (e.g. most running
    vests), a warm top underneath, and some mitts.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If anything, wear arm warmers, especially if your hands get cold.

    The only advantage of arm warmers over say a long sleeve top is that they
    are
    easy to remove. This makes them useful for cyclists who can easily stuff
    half
    their clothes into the back of a cycling jersey. Cyclists often need to
    change
    during the ride, because both the cycling time and distance make for a
    reasonable probability that the weather conditions will vary substantially
    throughout the ride. Arm warmers are popular among cyclists but seldom
    worn by
    runners.

    Tell that to Ryan Hall and the others in the Olympic trials marathon who
    wore arm warmers.

    I do hope that you are not confusing the above with any kind of rebuttal. Please
    think about it, and if you still don't understand why your remark is a non-sequiter,
    I will elaborate.

    Since you asked:

    Dear runners in the olympic trials who wore arm warmers, including but not
    limited to Ryan Hall: Arm warmers are seldom worn by runners.

    Cheers,
    --
    Elflord

  17. Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:
    Dan said:

    Hi,

    Quoted message said:

    I am in need of some advice about running during winter. This is my
    first winter season that I am going to attempt running in. I have
    already done a few runs this winter with regular clothing (cotton t-
    shirt, cotton sweater, nylon jacket) which really did not turn out
    well. Half way through my run the sweat absorbed by the clothing
    starts chilling me and makes it difficult to run. So, my question is,
    dose anybody have any specific suggestions as to what clothing I
    should purchase? I will need the clothing to be decently reflective
    (as I always run at night) and it must be able to 'wick' away sweat.

    You could move to Alaska and experience the balmy weather we've been
    having, courtesy of Pacific storm (and the rain of last week). I'm sure
    even cotton would work.🙁

    More seriously, how cold is "cold" - +50F in FL, -20F in MN? wind? are
    snow/ice an issue?

    If you're sweating that much to get clothes wet, you're probably dressed
    too heavily. Consider using layers and peel as needed. You will sweat
    somewhat, regardless of how minimal you go - it's part of the body being
    alive. You should start a little on the cool side, and you'll warm up -
    or start with shell and peel.

    This time of year you could probably find some great Chrismas sales at
    your local Wal-Mart / Target or whatever. Just look for synthetic,
    wicking clothes - stuff made from polyester, polypro, powerdry, etc.
    Even acrylic will be better than cotton. Particularly for pants, be sure
    to get something that's somewhat stretchy so you can move easily.
    Beanie-type hat, maybe an earband, mittens. REI is finishing a sale on
    Monday. Other spots to check arewww.sierratradingpost.comwww.campmor.com(good source for duofold stuff)

    FWIW, I generally start with a short-sleeve wicking t, regardless of
    season (have been know to peel down to this even in winter), then
    long-sleeve base or insulating layer, then shell. t shirt doesn't
    matter, but I like powerdry for base layer and Sporthill's Swift fabric
    (like their Infusion tops) for insulating since it breathes enough for
    running, but has enough wind resistance that a breeze doesn't whip
    through it. I like their Catalyst for colder temps (near 0F) - a little
    heavier and more wind resistant. Most shells worth getting (at least
    that I've seen) are windproof / non-breathable / not waterproof. If you
    can, I like them with pit-zips for ventilation, but seldom find that. I
    think I've seen a few shells that may not be completely windproof, but
    they still don't breathe. If I've got my layers right and it's not
    windy, I generally just carry the shell (we have wind come up quickly or
    even going to open field).

    On bottom, I like Sporthill XC pants (windproof to about 30mph),
    although they've changed the cut in recent years (more so for the women,
    which makes them too baggy). In cold weather, I may use tights of
    verying weights under them. If windy (above 30mph) or really cold (below
    -5F), I'll add windpants with full zips (get frosted on inside where
    condensation freezes).

    Socks - Smartwool of various weights.

    Since I usually run on trails, I worry more about getting good gear, and
    then worry about adding reflective stuff if needed. Checking cycling
    shops should turn up some reflective leg bands that can also be worn on
    arms. I think some even come with blinking lights. Reflective vests are
    probably the easiest solution.

    Enjoy!

    Dot

    --
    "A winner is just a loser who tried one more time." -Captain George M.
    Moore, Jr., United States Air Force (retired),http://www.avdlm.com/press.php?page=stories&storyid=1

    Thanks allot for all your advice. I think I just need to find a local
    running equipment store (anybody know a good one in the ottawa,
    ontario area?). The type of weather I am running in is a bit below
    freezing with snow and some rain.

  18. "Elflord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony S. said:

    Obviously just my opinion. Everyone has to experiment to see what works
    for
    them. I've noticed that unlike during almost any other outdoor activity
    in
    wintertime, running tends to leave my arms and hands cold. I don't know
    why
    this is, but vests of any type that I've tried seem to exacerbate the
    problem.

    Are you saying that putting on a vest makes your hands and arms colder ?

    Again, I think the idea is to wear vests for wind protection, but not
    thermal
    insulation.

    The idea is to have a vest with a mesh or very light back (e.g. most
    running
    vests), a warm top underneath, and some mitts.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > If anything, wear arm warmers, especially if your hands get cold.

    The only advantage of arm warmers over say a long sleeve top is that
    they
    are
    easy to remove. This makes them useful for cyclists who can easily stuff
    half
    their clothes into the back of a cycling jersey. Cyclists often need to
    change
    during the ride, because both the cycling time and distance make for a
    reasonable probability that the weather conditions will vary
    substantially
    throughout the ride. Arm warmers are popular among cyclists but seldom
    worn by
    runners.

    Tell that to Ryan Hall and the others in the Olympic trials marathon who
    wore arm warmers.

    I do hope that you are not confusing the above with any kind of rebuttal.
    Please
    think about it, and if you still don't understand why your remark is a
    non-sequiter,
    I will elaborate.

    Just pointing out that some runners are starting to wear them (or maybe it's
    the same fringe that did before since I have no statistics), and I seriously
    doubt it's just for fashion, since arm warmers aren't that comfortable when
    worn for a couple of hours.

    Light shell type running vests may work great for many people. I don't
    happen to see many runners wearing them, but then again I rarely run where
    large numbers of other runners do. My original point wasn't talking about
    light running vests, but others such as fleece vests, and I didn't make that
    clear.

    My speculation, which isn't based on science, is that during running in cold
    weather circulation priority becomes supplying the legs with blood flow to
    keep running, and the core to keep warm. If that's the case, then the arms
    and hands might get less circulation and get cold. That's what seems to
    happen to me. Of course something like this takes place when the body really
    does get cold. It could be that when this cold arms and hands effect happens
    to runners (like me), the body is getting confused and thinks it's cold for
    some reason, further heating the core when it should be doing the opposite.
    Don't know, just know that it happens.

    So to fight the above described effect, whether or not you agree with the
    suggested cause, more layering for the arms and wearing warmer gloves might
    be an answer. It did seem when I experimented, that wearing arm warmers
    under a single layer top did not only keep my arms warmer, but my hands also
    in the same gloves they might have been cold in before. I'm sure I'll do
    further experimenting this year, but I want to get a hold of some more
    comfortable arm warmers.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    Since you asked:

    Dear runners in the olympic trials who wore arm warmers, including but not
    limited to Ryan Hall: Arm warmers are seldom worn by runners.

    Cheers,
    --
    Elflord

  19. Tony S. said:
    Quoted message said:

    I do hope that you are not confusing the above with any kind of rebuttal.
    Please
    think about it, and if you still don't understand why your remark is a
    non-sequiter,
    I will elaborate.

    Just pointing out that some runners are starting to wear them (or maybe it's

    Elite women wear bunhuggers in 10k races. That doesn't mean that they wear them
    for their daily training runs and workouts.

    In a race, one wants to wear as much as necessary, but no more. Training runs are
    not quite so constrained. One leans a little more towards comfort at the expense
    of performance.

    The trials competitors wear arm warmers in a race that is expected to last
    longer than 2 hours. Adjustable clothing is a potential advantage given this
    time frame.

    Quoted message said:

    My speculation, which isn't based on science, is that during running in cold
    weather circulation priority becomes supplying the legs with blood flow to
    keep running, and the core to keep warm. If that's the case, then the arms
    and hands might get less circulation and get cold. That's what seems to
    happen to me. Of course something like this takes place when the body really
    does get cold. It could be that when this cold arms and hands effect happens
    to runners (like me), the body is getting confused and thinks it's cold for
    some reason, further heating the core when it should be doing the opposite.
    Don't know, just know that it happens.

    Are you claiming that your arms get very cold and your body overheats at the
    same time ? What were you wearing when this happened ? I've had both happen
    before, but not at the same time though I guess I might be able to accomplish
    this by racing a 10k wearing a down jacket with the sleeves cut off at the
    elbows.

    Quoted message said:

    So to fight the above described effect, whether or not you agree with the
    suggested cause,

    I would like to learn a little more about the described effect, before trying to
    fight it, or deduce the cause.

    Cheers,
    --
    Elflord

  20. Quoted message said:

    Sericinus hunter <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Svs2j.2173$Oe4.2010
    @newsfe10.lga:

    Quoted message said:

    Obvious advise by an idiot: cotton is your enemy. Any running site


    will tell

    Quoted message said:

    you what your closing should be. Putting aside marketing gimmick,
    your closing should go in layers.

    Jerkoff

    Alternating other's post is a greatest sin. За это просто полагается
    канделябром. Fortunately, looks like everybody here knows what you are,
    nobody seems to care to respond. I am the last of the mohicans.

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