Wonderful, this is REALLY going to help.

Amazing that it's ONLY 130 cyclists. I suppose all those frustrated
motorists would be only too happy to have anotyer 130 cars in front of them!
NRMA have lost the plot because the more bicycle facilities you build the
more are encouraged to ride. And isn't that the point? Less cars, fewer
obese people, less emmisions, Oh I better stop there!
Grrrr

"John Tserkezis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(watch wrapping)
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/money-wasted-on-cyclists-nrma/2008/01/09/1199554742667.html>
Money wasted on cyclists: NRMA
TAXPAYERS are pouring millions of dollars into lining motorways with
cycleways that are barely used - and are building a new bicycle lane the
NRMA says will effectively cost $300,000 for every cyclist that uses it.

Despite pleas from Sydney's Lord Mayor, Clover Moore, for bicycles to
reclaim the streets, the motoring organisation says residents are sticking
to four wheels.

In a submission to the Roads and Traffic Authority it accuses the
Government of wasting millions on cyclists at the expense of motorists,
who are forced to battle worsening congestion as lanes are removed from
busy roads.

The cycling lane on the M2 attracted just 130 cyclists a day. The Iemma
Government is building a cycleway alongside choked Epping Road, despite as
few as 25 cyclists using that corridor each day.

At $7.6 million for the Epping Road cycleway, the NRMA says that would
amount to spending $300,000 per cyclist on a lane that is unlikely to
attract many more riders, based on the experiences of the M2 motorway.

The NRMA wants the Epping Road cycleway to be scrapped to allow lanes to
be widened for trucks and cars.

The Westlink M7 cycleway added $60 million to the cost of that project, a
legacy of the former roads minister Carl Scully.

The Government has paid $25 million to Connector Motorways, which owns the
Lane Cove Tunnel, to delay narrowing Epping Road from three lanes to one
in each direction, leaving room for a bus lane and cycleway. The intention
of narrowing the road is to funnel motorists into the tunnel.

The M2 dedicated a breakdown lane to cyclists when it opened 10 years ago
but only 130 cyclists a day used it.

Cr Moore has accused the Government of being anti-bicycle and pro-car, and
has flagged a plan for a cheap bicycle rental system in the city.

But the president of the NRMA, Alan Evans, questioned the value of cycling
lanes, and said Sydney motorists would suffer when the Epping Road-Lane
Cove Tunnel roadworks were completed.

"When you have high traffic volumes of more than 35,000 vehicles per day,
this is not a sensible use of resources," Mr Evans said. "Cyclists appear
to be the only winners on Epping Road, at the expense of thousands of
motorists."

A spokesman for the RTA said the cycleway would attract many more cyclists
than those now using Epping Road. He said the NRMA's figure was not a true
reflection of how popular the new cycleway would be once completed.

"If you give cyclists a dedicated facility instead of riding in normal
traffic, they will use it," the spokesman said.

The acting Opposition Leader, Andrew Stoner, said the traffic gridlock on
Epping Road was a sign of things to come.

"Current traffic on Epping Road is bumper-to-bumper and most people
haven't even returned from their holidays," he said. "Morris Iemma and
[the Minister for Roads] Eric Roozendaal spent $25 million of taxpayers'
money to delay the road changes until after the state and federal
elections and now motorists know why."
Bicycles stay home

- M2: 130 cyclists a day

- Westlink M7: 40 km cycleway, cost $60 million

- Epping Road: $7.6 million, 25 cyclists using the road each day
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

As the NRA is to guns in the US, so the NRMA is to cars in Australia. No
co-incidence that the two organisations acronyms are so similar...

"John Tserkezis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(watch wrapping)
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/money-wasted-on-cyclists-nrma/2008/01/09/1199554742667.html>
Money wasted on cyclists: NRMA
TAXPAYERS are pouring millions of dollars into lining motorways with
cycleways that are barely used - and are building a new bicycle lane the
NRMA says will effectively cost $300,000 for every cyclist that uses it.

Despite pleas from Sydney's Lord Mayor, Clover Moore, for bicycles to
reclaim the streets, the motoring organisation says residents are sticking
to four wheels.

In a submission to the Roads and Traffic Authority it accuses the
Government of wasting millions on cyclists at the expense of motorists,
who are forced to battle worsening congestion as lanes are removed from
busy roads.

The cycling lane on the M2 attracted just 130 cyclists a day. The Iemma
Government is building a cycleway alongside choked Epping Road, despite as
few as 25 cyclists using that corridor each day.

At $7.6 million for the Epping Road cycleway, the NRMA says that would
amount to spending $300,000 per cyclist on a lane that is unlikely to
attract many more riders, based on the experiences of the M2 motorway.

The NRMA wants the Epping Road cycleway to be scrapped to allow lanes to
be widened for trucks and cars.

The Westlink M7 cycleway added $60 million to the cost of that project, a
legacy of the former roads minister Carl Scully.

The Government has paid $25 million to Connector Motorways, which owns the
Lane Cove Tunnel, to delay narrowing Epping Road from three lanes to one
in each direction, leaving room for a bus lane and cycleway. The intention
of narrowing the road is to funnel motorists into the tunnel.

The M2 dedicated a breakdown lane to cyclists when it opened 10 years ago
but only 130 cyclists a day used it.

Cr Moore has accused the Government of being anti-bicycle and pro-car, and
has flagged a plan for a cheap bicycle rental system in the city.

But the president of the NRMA, Alan Evans, questioned the value of cycling
lanes, and said Sydney motorists would suffer when the Epping Road-Lane
Cove Tunnel roadworks were completed.

"When you have high traffic volumes of more than 35,000 vehicles per day,
this is not a sensible use of resources," Mr Evans said. "Cyclists appear
to be the only winners on Epping Road, at the expense of thousands of
motorists."

A spokesman for the RTA said the cycleway would attract many more cyclists
than those now using Epping Road. He said the NRMA's figure was not a true
reflection of how popular the new cycleway would be once completed.

"If you give cyclists a dedicated facility instead of riding in normal
traffic, they will use it," the spokesman said.

The acting Opposition Leader, Andrew Stoner, said the traffic gridlock on
Epping Road was a sign of things to come.

"Current traffic on Epping Road is bumper-to-bumper and most people
haven't even returned from their holidays," he said. "Morris Iemma and
[the Minister for Roads] Eric Roozendaal spent $25 million of taxpayers'
money to delay the road changes until after the state and federal
elections and now motorists know why."
Bicycles stay home

- M2: 130 cyclists a day

- Westlink M7: 40 km cycleway, cost $60 million

- Epping Road: $7.6 million, 25 cyclists using the road each day
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:43:09 GMT

JoeDe said:

Amazing that it's ONLY 130 cyclists. I suppose all those frustrated
motorists would be only too happy to have anotyer 130 cars in front of them!
NRMA have lost the plot because the more bicycle facilities you build the
more are encouraged to ride. And isn't that the point? Less cars, fewer
obese people, less emmisions, Oh I better stop there!
Grrrr

Do we know that for a fact? That cycle facilities encourage people to
ride, specifically to commute?

If you ask a reasonable sample of people who drive along Epping road
why they don't cycle, what do you think the answers would be?

I think that "too far" and "too hilly" would be high on the list.
"too dangerous" would be up there too, that's the only one that might
change.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:43:09 GMT

JoeDe said:

Amazing that it's ONLY 130 cyclists. I suppose all those frustrated
motorists would be only too happy to have anotyer 130 cars in front of them!
NRMA have lost the plot because the more bicycle facilities you build the
more are encouraged to ride. And isn't that the point? Less cars, fewer
obese people, less emmisions, Oh I better stop there!
Grrrr

Do we know that for a fact? That cycle facilities encourage people to
ride, specifically to commute?

If you ask a reasonable sample of people who drive along Epping road
why they don't cycle, what do you think the answers would be?

I think that "too far" and "too hilly" would be high on the list.
"too dangerous" would be up there too, that's the only one that might
change.

It would seem that Zebee may have something. There's little evidence to suggest that building cycling facilities encourages cycling.

A couple of select quotes from the Wikipedia article on segregated cycling infrastructure.

Quoted post said:

Between the late '80s and early '90s the Netherlands spent 1.5 billion guilders (the equivalent of US$945 million) on cycling infrastructure, yet cycling levels practically stayed the same.[73] When the flagship Delft Bicycle Route project was evaluated, the results were “not very positive: bicycle use had not increased, neither had the road safety. A route network of bicycle facilities has, apparently, no added value for bicycle use or road safety”.[74] In the UK, a ten year study of the effect of cycle facilities in eight UK towns and cities found no evidence that they had resulted in any diversion from other transport modes to cycling [75] A similar finding had been reported for Denmark in 1989, where it was found that there was no correlation between cycle facilities and increased cycling unless active traffic restraint measures were also present. In Denmark as a whole, the establishment of a huge cycling infrastructure has been accompanied by cycling levels that have stayed roughly stable (with minor fluctuations) since 1975. The construction of 320 km of "Strategic cycle network" in Dublin been accompanied by a 15% fall in commuter cycling and 40% falls in cycling by second and third level students. In contrast, in the late 1970s and early 1980s cycling underwent robust growth in Germany, the UK and Ireland while there was little or no investment in cycling infrastructure

So maybe the NRMA aren't being unreasonable, history suggests that's the case.

What's needed far more than `cycling facilities' is equal right of access. Bottom line, if a route is build from a to b, it must be accessible by cyclists.

The UK has it and that's why something like the Westgate Bridge fiasco would never have been allowed to happen there.

A quick google for some of Alan Evans' other announcements gives me
the impression that he's attempting to set himself up as a demagogue
in the John Laws/Alan Jones style. You know, "defender of the common
man's interests" and all that. He'll probably be making a run for the
office of Lord Mayor in the next election.

I'm inclined to cancel my NRMA insurance policies in protest, except
that the NRMA insurance business is a separate company from the one
this clown is running.

BTH

BT Humble said:

A quick google for some of Alan Evans' other announcements gives me
the impression that he's attempting to set himself up as a demagogue
in the John Laws/Alan Jones style. You know, "defender of the common
man's interests" and all that. He'll probably be making a run for the
office of Lord Mayor in the next election.

I'm inclined to cancel my NRMA insurance policies in protest, except
that the NRMA insurance business is a separate company from the one
this clown is running.

As NRMA members and cyclists (there's gotta be a few here), we can
voice our displeasure.

I'm pretty sure it is just the new management.. I certainly don't
recall the previous board being so hostile to cyclists.

Duncan said:

As NRMA members and cyclists (there's gotta be a few here), we can
voice our displeasure.

I'm pretty sure it is just the new management.. I certainly don't
recall the previous board being so hostile to cyclists.

Well, I'm not a member any more - I just have some insurance policies
with them. Which rather limits my ability to make my displeasure
known in a way that they'll care about.

BTH

BT Humble said:

Duncan said:

As NRMA members and cyclists (there's gotta be a few here), we can
voice our displeasure.

Quoted message said:

I'm pretty sure it is just the new management.. I certainly don't
recall the previous board being so hostile to cyclists.

Well, I'm not a member any more - I just have some insurance policies
with them. Which rather limits my ability to make my displeasure
known in a way that they'll care about.

BTH

There is a feedback (non-member) page on their website.. but you're
right.. it's next to useless.

Found this refreshing article, which pretty much sums up the lane-cove
tunnel debacle.

http://livenews.com.au/Articles/2008/01/10/Fourwheels_good_twowheels_bad

On 2008-01-10, Duncan (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

BT Humble said:

I'm inclined to cancel my NRMA insurance policies in protest, except
that the NRMA insurance business is a separate company from the one
this clown is running.

As NRMA members and cyclists (there's gotta be a few here), we can
voice our displeasure.

I'm pretty sure it is just the new management.. I certainly don't
recall the previous board being so hostile to cyclists.

RACV has been like it for at least 3 years. I was very reluctant to
help fund their voice in the last year I owned a car (funny, I had
been reluctant to fund BV too).

--
TimC
CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent of 85
Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight. -- unk

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:04:02 +1100

TimC said:

RACV has been like it for at least 3 years. I was very reluctant to
help fund their voice in the last year I owned a car (funny, I had
been reluctant to fund BV too).

Have those who don't like the govt sanctioned lobby group thought
about creating their own?

Presumably an all out campaign to get on the BV board hasn't worked,
so time to create a new one. Take a couple of years to get enough
people on board to be taken seriously, and a lot of time and money
though.

Zebee

Duncan said:

There is a feedback (non-member) page on their website.. but you're
right.. it's next to useless.

Found this refreshing article, which pretty much sums up the lane-cove
tunnel debacle.

http://livenews.com.au/Articles/2008/01/10/Fourwheels_good_twowheels_bad

More despatches in todays media, including great comments by Bike Saint from Bike Sydney.

Bike lanes dangerous, cyclists warn
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/bike-lanes-dangerous-cyclists-warn/2008/01/10/1199554832979.html

Clover Moore: Cycling the way to go in this overcrowded city
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/cycling-the-way-to-go-in-this-overcrowded-city/2008/01/10/1199554826137.html

Todays SMH letter section:

Join up the cycleways and the pedallers will come

As Alan Evans well knows, cycleways are underused because they mostly start and finish nowhere ("Empty cycling lanes cost millions: NRMA", January 10). If the disparate strands of Sydney's cycleways were to link up cyclists would take to them in droves. I am a member of the NRMA and a cyclist. If it was safe, I would cycle much more than I do and thousands of Sydneysiders feel likewise. I am appalled that the NRMA is against cycling and will reconsider my membership.

Tom McGinness Randwick

Taking advice from the NRMA about road building is like asking Coke for advice on obesity.

R. Fisher Downer (ACT)

Where has the NRMA been? All over the Western world urban people are increasingly turning to cycling for transport and recreation. Sydney City Council research shows people want to take up cycling for environmental, health and economic reasons but are reluctant because of the lack of safe, coherent cycling infrastructure. This is where the NRMA's rubbery financial figures fall down.

The cycling infrastructure that today's governments are finally building is an investment for generations to come. As an NRMA member I should point out that in any one week I drive my car, catch public transport, walk to work and ride my bicycle. Our road infrastructure must be understood in a balanced and sustainable context if it is to serve Sydney for generations to come.

Councillor Shayne Mallard Sydney

Would the NRMA apply the same logic to rural roads? Only small numbers of cars use the road to Ivanhoe, for example, so why should we spend money on a road for them? What price do we put on heart disease and serious injury and death from motor vehicle accidents? I would presume it is more than the cost of a few hundred kilometres of cycleway.

John Holstein Northmead

In 2007, the NSW Treasurer, Michael Costa, boosted the annual state budget for roads to a record $3.7 billion. Of that, Costa and the equally myopic NSW Government allocated barely $7 million, or a pathetic 0.2 per cent, to bicycle-specific programs.

Yet this 99.8 per cent of road funding for cars and trucks is simply not enough for the incensed Alan Evans and the NRMA.

Jim Hope Coogee

The Epping Road cycleway is still under construction and will have few users until it is completed. The NRMA would have been better using figures for the cycleway around the north of Sydney Airport, which is teeming with cyclists who are able to speed past the gridlocked cars at a standstill on Qantas Drive every morning. The NRMA may have an interest in campaigning for more cars on our roads but more cars is not necessarily in the best interests of its members.

Lester Ranby Newtown

As motorists, NRMA members need a breakdown service for their cars but, as cyclists, they find themselves members of an organisation that continually opposes safe cycling facilities and incites motorist hatred against them.

My household solved this problem by joining the RACV, for it is a little-known fact that residents of NSW and the ACT have a choice of road service organisations. The RACV has increasingly turned its attention to public transport, pedestrian and cycling issues; it even provides a breakdown service for bicycles.

Terry George Watson (ACT)