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Yeeesssss!

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UK and Europe
Published
31 October 2006
Last activity
6 November 2006
Original author
Tony Raven
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32
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  1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm
    Police bail 'Mr Loophole' lawyer

    The celebrity lawyer Nick Freeman, nicknamed Mr Loophole, has been
    released on bail after he was arrested in Manchester.

    Police raided his offices in the city centre on Monday after a request
    from Gwent police.

    Mr Freeman was being questioned with another man on suspicion of
    conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    The Cheshire-based lawyer has become well-known for representing
    celebrity clients, usually on motoring offences.

    They have included former England captain David Beckham, who
    successfully appealed against a driving ban in 1999.

    Mr Freeman has also successfully represented Manchester United manager
    Sir Alex Ferguson, Wayne Rooney and snooker player Ronnie O'Sullivan.

    In his most recent high-profile case, he failed to help model Caprice
    escape a drink driving conviction.

    A spokeswoman for Gwent Police said a 45-year-old man and a 49-year-old
    man were arrested in Manchester on Monday morning and released at about
    2330 GMT.

    "The arrests have been made as part of an ongoing investigation being
    carried out by Gwent Police," she said.

    The pair were bailed to return to a police station in December.

    --
    Tony

    "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
    his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
    - Leonardo da Vinci

  2. Tony Raven said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm
    Police bail 'Mr Loophole' lawyer

    Why the triumphalism? What has he been convicted of? Nothing. Wait to
    see if he is.

    BTW, the correct application of all laws should be expected at all
    times. If the police attempt to convict someone of anl offence, without
    going through the correct procedures, then it is only to expected, and
    applauded, that the attempt to incorrectly convict should fail.

    Those who seek to have all laws applied legally and correctly should be
    supported, even if they do it very effectively, and very expensively ;-)

    --
    Matt B

  3. Tony Raven said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm
    Police bail 'Mr Loophole' lawyer

    The celebrity lawyer Nick Freeman, nicknamed Mr Loophole, has been
    released on bail after he was arrested in Manchester.

    Police raided his offices in the city centre on Monday after a request
    from Gwent police.

    Mr Freeman was being questioned with another man on suspicion of
    conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    The Cheshire-based lawyer has become well-known for representing
    celebrity clients, usually on motoring offences.

    They have included former England captain David Beckham, who
    successfully appealed against a driving ban in 1999.

    Mr Freeman has also successfully represented Manchester United manager
    Sir Alex Ferguson, Wayne Rooney and snooker player Ronnie O'Sullivan.

    In his most recent high-profile case, he failed to help model Caprice
    escape a drink driving conviction.

    A spokeswoman for Gwent Police said a 45-year-old man and a 49-year-old
    man were arrested in Manchester on Monday morning and released at about
    2330 GMT.

    "The arrests have been made as part of an ongoing investigation being
    carried out by Gwent Police," she said.

    The pair were bailed to return to a police station in December.

    --
    Tony

    "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
    his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
    - Leonardo da Vinci

    Great news, although perhaps the enormity of the wffect of Freeman's
    shyster tactics will only be brought home to him were someone he loved
    to be included among the twelve hundred people killed by speeders every
    year.

  4. Tony Raven wrote:

    [arrest-o-twonk]

    Yessssssss indeed. I saw this on the news last night; I think I'm right in
    saying that I applauded.

    I wonder what the reaction in the S+f+sp++d fora is like ;-)

    --
    Dave Larrington
    <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
    Hoc ardur vincere docet.

  5. Tony Raven said the following on 31/10/2006 09:06:

    Quoted message said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm

    Wonder if he knows any good solicitors?

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

  6. Paul Boyd said:

    Tony Raven said the following on 31/10/2006 09:06:

    Quoted message said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm

    Wonder if he knows any good solicitors?


    He'll probably find a loop-hole

    David

  7. Sirius631 said:
    Paul Boyd said:

    Tony Raven said the following on 31/10/2006 09:06:

    Quoted message said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm


    Wonder if he knows any good solicitors?


    He'll probably find a loop-hole

    What's with this 'loophole' thing? If the police or the prosecutors
    fail in their obligation to follow the correct procedures it is hardly a
    'loophole'. Indeed conviction under such circumstances would be a very
    serious miscarriage indeed.

    --
    Matt B

  8. Sirius631 said:
    Paul Boyd said:

    Tony Raven said the following on 31/10/2006 09:06:

    Quoted message said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm

    Wonder if he knows any good solicitors?


    He'll probably find a loop-hole

    David

    That's what Freeman does, he is paid a lot of money to get common
    criminals away scot free:

    Depending on who you believe, some clients have been happy to part with
    up to six-figure sums to ensure they retain their right to drive. It
    hardly seems fair; if you have enough money - like Manchester
    businessman Jon Bradshaw, four and a half times over the limit and
    acquitted last month thanks to Freeman - then it seems you can get off
    almost any charge

    http://www.politics.guardian.co.uk/law/story/0,,1695967,00.html

    Freeman admits himself that his work is immoral.

  9. Sirius631 wrote on 31/10/2006 11:36 +0100:

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Boyd said:

    Tony Raven said the following on 31/10/2006 09:06:

    Quoted message said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm


    Wonder if he knows any good solicitors?


    He'll probably find a loop-hole

    And hopefully he'll put his head through it while someone else kicks
    away the chair ;-)

    --
    Tony

    "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
    his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
    - Leonardo da Vinci

  10. Tony Raven said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm
    Police bail 'Mr Loophole' lawyer

    The celebrity lawyer Nick Freeman, nicknamed Mr Loophole, has been
    released on bail after he was arrested in Manchester.

    Police raided his offices in the city centre on Monday after a request
    from Gwent police.

    Mr Freeman was being questioned with another man on suspicion of
    conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    The Cheshire-based lawyer has become well-known for representing
    celebrity clients, usually on motoring offences.

    They have included former England captain David Beckham, who
    successfully appealed against a driving ban in 1999.

    Mr Freeman has also successfully represented Manchester United manager
    Sir Alex Ferguson, Wayne Rooney and snooker player Ronnie O'Sullivan.

    In his most recent high-profile case, he failed to help model Caprice
    escape a drink driving conviction.

    A spokeswoman for Gwent Police said a 45-year-old man and a 49-year-old
    man were arrested in Manchester on Monday morning and released at about
    2330 GMT.

    "The arrests have been made as part of an ongoing investigation being
    carried out by Gwent Police," she said.

    The pair were bailed to return to a police station in December.

    Good I know one PC who will be very pleased as she was going to be
    facing him in the near future.

    🙂

    Sniper8052

  11. Matt B said:
    Tony Raven said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm
    Police bail 'Mr Loophole' lawyer

    Why the triumphalism? What has he been convicted of? Nothing. Wait to
    see if he is.

    BTW, the correct application of all laws should be expected at all
    times. If the police attempt to convict someone of anl offence, without
    going through the correct procedures, then it is only to expected, and
    applauded, that the attempt to incorrectly convict should fail.

    Those who seek to have all laws applied legally and correctly should be
    supported, even if they do it very effectively, and very expensively ;-)

    Indeed, but Mr Freeman makes a living from persuading the judiciary
    that 'beyond reasonable doubt' should be interpreted as 'beyond all
    possible doubt and minor buereaucratic errors'.

    ...d

  12. David Martin said:
    Matt B said:
    Tony Raven said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm
    Police bail 'Mr Loophole' lawyer


    Why the triumphalism? What has he been convicted of? Nothing. Wait to
    see if he is.

    BTW, the correct application of all laws should be expected at all
    times. If the police attempt to convict someone of anl offence, without
    going through the correct procedures, then it is only to expected, and
    applauded, that the attempt to incorrectly convict should fail.

    Those who seek to have all laws applied legally and correctly should be
    supported, even if they do it very effectively, and very expensively ;-)

    Indeed, but Mr Freeman makes a living from persuading the judiciary
    that 'beyond reasonable doubt' should be interpreted as 'beyond all
    possible doubt and minor buereaucratic errors'.

    It's not his fault that they accept what he says. Presumably the
    safeguards that have been bypassed were there for a reason. Extenuating
    circumstances have always been taken into consideration by UK courts.
    Perhaps it is better to hang the innocent celebrity motorist, than let
    one guilty one go free.

    --
    Matt B

  13. Matt B said:

    It's not his fault that they accept what he says. Presumably the
    safeguards that have been bypassed were there for a reason. Extenuating
    circumstances have always been taken into consideration by UK courts.
    Perhaps it is better to hang the innocent celebrity motorist, than let
    one guilty one go free.

    Lets take a hypothetical example that is not far from the truth. A
    person is stopped for doing 120mph. The prime evidence of this speed is
    an instrument that requires calibration on a monthly basis. Otherwise
    readings may drift to 10 or 15% out.

    If the instrument calibration certificate is out of date by one day
    then a loophole would be that because the instrument was not calibrated
    according to schedule that the data is invalid. Now, for a
    scientist/engineer, it would be clear that despite the out of date
    calibration, it was beyond reasonable doubt that the accused was
    clearly exceeding the speed limit by a considerable amount but the
    protestations of the accused's lawyers lead the non-technical judge to
    dismiss that evidence.

    That is the kind of issue one is dealing with - minor errors in
    procedure that on the balance of things do not affect the accuracy of
    the judgement, but due to the legal nit-picking, the evidence is
    dismissed for beureaucratic reasons rather than technical ones.

    So, getting the guilty off on a legal technicality is an accurate
    description of what he does. There are good technical reasons to
    challenge evidence in some cases, but that is due to the evidence
    itself, and not to some box ticking mentality for the morlocks of
    society.

    ...d

  14. "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Sirius631 said:
    Paul Boyd said:

    Tony Raven said the following on 31/10/2006 09:06:
    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm
    Wonder if he knows any good solicitors?


    He'll probably find a loop-hole

    What's with this 'loophole' thing? If the police or the prosecutors
    fail in their obligation to follow the correct procedures it is hardly a
    'loophole'. Indeed conviction under such circumstances would be a very
    serious miscarriage indeed.


    Granted that procedures should be properly followed, but when someone is got
    off a charge due to what would be seen by any reasonable person as pedantic
    technical nit-picking, it does nothing for the general population's trust in
    the justice system. IIRC, this guy got many people off speeding charges
    because the signs were on the the wrong shaped background. Anyone else would
    have seen the roundel of the sign and taken it as a genuine speed
    restriction sign. His arguement was that although the figure was black, on
    white circle, surrounded by a red circular border, the fact that it was on a
    non-circular backing made it illegal. Many of these signs are out there.

    I don't know about you, but I'd be angry if anyone took me off my bike and
    then gave any such excuse as a defence.

    --
    David Lloyd,
    The pub is responsible for my opinions.

  15. David Martin said:
    Matt B said:

    It's not his fault that they accept what he says. Presumably the
    safeguards that have been bypassed were there for a reason. Extenuating
    circumstances have always been taken into consideration by UK courts.
    Perhaps it is better to hang the innocent celebrity motorist, than let
    one guilty one go free.

    Lets take a hypothetical example that is not far from the truth.

    ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    A
    person is stopped for doing 120mph. The prime evidence of this speed is
    an instrument that requires calibration on a monthly basis. Otherwise
    readings may drift to 10 or 15% out.

    It's not going to be dead accurate for 31 days, then on day 32 be 15%
    adrift.

    Quoted message said:

    If the instrument calibration certificate is out of date by one day
    then a loophole would be that because the instrument was not calibrated
    according to schedule that the data is invalid.

    The way the law or regulation is drafted is the responsibility of the
    law maker, so the lawyer cannot be blamed for working to it.

    Quoted message said:

    Now, for a
    scientist/engineer, it would be clear that despite the out of date
    calibration, it was beyond reasonable doubt that the accused was
    clearly exceeding the speed limit by a considerable amount but the
    protestations of the accused's lawyers lead the non-technical judge to
    dismiss that evidence.

    The fact that the judge accepts the lawyers interpretation of the law is
    not the fault of the lawyer, but of the judge.

    Quoted message said:

    That is the kind of issue one is dealing with - minor errors in
    procedure that on the balance of things do not affect the accuracy of
    the judgement, but due to the legal nit-picking, the evidence is
    dismissed for beureaucratic reasons rather than technical ones.

    Everyone whose case is heard in court has the right to be represented
    and defended. The job of the defence lawyer is to defend the accused.
    When the lawyer succeeds in his job he should be applauded, not
    attacked? The lawyer doesn't specify the bureaucratic process that must
    be followed, he merely points out if it wasn't. The alternative would
    be kangaroo courts where process is ignored in favour of securing
    'guilty' verdicts.

    Quoted message said:

    So, getting the guilty off on a legal technicality is an accurate
    description of what he does.

    What he does is represent his client. The judge/magistrate/jury make
    the decisions. If someone else decides that the defence lawyer has made
    a valid point then that is not the fault of the defence lawyer.

    Quoted message said:

    There are good technical reasons to
    challenge evidence in some cases, but that is due to the evidence
    itself, and not to some box ticking mentality for the morlocks of
    society.

    Those who frame the legislation provide the rules of engagement. If the
    rules say the machine must be 'calibrated monthly', rather than
    something like 'reasonable steps must be taken to ensure that the
    machine is accurate to within 1%', or whatever, then the lawyer is not
    at fault if he exposes the fact that the rule has been broken.

    Sloppy legislation, sloppy police work, sloppy prosecutor work, sloppy
    judges are the reason that 'technicalities' can be used to avoid
    conviction. Lawyers are obliged to do the best they can to defend their
    clients.

    --
    Matt B

  16. David Martin said:

    Matt B wrote:


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:


    That is the kind of issue one is dealing with - minor errors in
    procedure that on the balance of things

    or indeed "beyond reasonable doubt"

    Quoted message said:

    do not affect the accuracy of
    the judgement, but due to the legal nit-picking, the evidence is
    dismissed for beureaucratic reasons rather than technical ones.


    [snip]

    Peter

    --
    www.amey.org.uk

  17. David Lloyd said:

    "Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Sirius631 said:

    Paul Boyd wrote:
    > Tony Raven said the following on 31/10/2006 09:06:
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6100970.stm
    > Wonder if he knows any good solicitors?
    >
    He'll probably find a loop-hole


    What's with this 'loophole' thing? If the police or the prosecutors
    fail in their obligation to follow the correct procedures it is hardly a
    'loophole'. Indeed conviction under such circumstances would be a very
    serious miscarriage indeed.


    Granted that procedures should be properly followed, but when someone is got
    off a charge due to what would be seen by any reasonable person as pedantic
    technical nit-picking, it does nothing for the general population's trust in
    the justice system.

    So 'fix' the justice system. If the law is rigidly framed to specify
    that a certain action /must/ have taken place, then when it hasn't, it
    is not the lawyer who is at fault.

    Quoted message said:

    IIRC, this guy got many people off speeding charges
    because the signs were on the the wrong shaped background.

    If the law specifies that they must be then presumably they /must/ be.
    The law could say the speed limit must be displayed in a 'reasonable
    fashion', but it doesn't. It is a bad law.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyone else would
    have seen the roundel of the sign and taken it as a genuine speed
    restriction sign.

    Rules is rules.

    Quoted message said:

    His arguement was that although the figure was black, on
    white circle, surrounded by a red circular border, the fact that it was on a
    non-circular backing made it illegal. Many of these signs are out there.

    It isn't the lawyer's fault though. If the law is so inflexible the
    obvious solution is to re-word it.

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know about you, but I'd be angry if anyone took me off my bike and
    then gave any such excuse as a defence.

    You bet! Equally though, I'd be glad of a technical excuse to escape
    conviction from a technical offence. E.g. riding on a footway for
    crossing the line between the cyclist bit and the pedestrian bit of a
    'facility' to avoid a pothole.

    --
    Matt B

  18. Matt B said:

    Those who frame the legislation provide the rules of engagement. If the
    rules say the machine must be 'calibrated monthly', rather than
    something like 'reasonable steps must be taken to ensure that the
    machine is accurate to within 1%', or whatever, then the lawyer is not
    at fault if he exposes the fact that the rule has been broken.

    What more often happens is that the PC presenting the evidence is not a
    technical expert. The lawyer asks for the calibration and claims that
    being one day late is sufficient to render the otherwise clear evidence
    invalid. Without an appropriate technical witness, there is no one to
    refute that erroneous claim.

    Likewise the case mentioned with regard to a sign which to all intents
    and purposes clearly states the speed limit, yet because of the
    minutiae of the regulations, at a detail not covered in the HC, the
    brief claims the case is invalid becasue his client couldn't possibly
    have known that a 30mph sign on a square plate was meant to indicate a
    30 limit, whereas he would have been perfectly happy had it been on a
    round plate.

    Quoted message said:

    Sloppy legislation, sloppy police work, sloppy prosecutor work, sloppy
    judges are the reason that 'technicalities' can be used to avoid
    conviction. Lawyers are obliged to do the best they can to defend their
    clients.

    I wouldn't describe it as sloppy. I think you are living too much under
    the bridge.

    ...d

  19. David Martin said:
    Matt B said:

    Those who frame the legislation provide the rules of engagement. If the
    rules say the machine must be 'calibrated monthly', rather than
    something like 'reasonable steps must be taken to ensure that the
    machine is accurate to within 1%', or whatever, then the lawyer is not
    at fault if he exposes the fact that the rule has been broken.

    What more often happens is that the PC presenting the evidence is not a
    technical expert. The lawyer asks for the calibration and claims that
    being one day late is sufficient to render the otherwise clear evidence
    invalid.

    Which, presumably is why the safeguard was inserted in the law in the
    first place.

    Quoted message said:

    Without an appropriate technical witness, there is no one to
    refute that erroneous claim.

    Or, if the lawyer hadn't spotted the potential for error, the accused
    could have been convicted due to faulty readings. I wouldn't assume
    that the device was working correctly based on the word of a
    non-technical PC, and without a proper calibration certificate.

    Quoted message said:

    Likewise the case mentioned with regard to a sign which to all intents
    and purposes clearly states the speed limit, yet because of the
    minutiae of the regulations, at a detail not covered in the HC,

    The regulation detail is either required, or superfluous. If the latter
    then get rid of the detail. While the detail is present it has to be
    followed - as do all details in all laws.

    Quoted message said:

    the
    brief claims the case is invalid becasue his client couldn't possibly
    have known that a 30mph sign on a square plate was meant to indicate a
    30 limit, whereas he would have been perfectly happy had it been on a
    round plate.

    And the judge, presumably, accepted that if minute detaail is specified
    in the law, then the minute detail must be followed. The lawyer was
    vindicated.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sloppy legislation, sloppy police work, sloppy prosecutor work, sloppy
    judges are the reason that 'technicalities' can be used to avoid
    conviction. Lawyers are obliged to do the best they can to defend their
    clients.

    I wouldn't describe it as sloppy.

    Is 'incompetent' a better description?

    Quoted message said:

    I think you are living too much under
    the bridge.

    I always air my genuine opinions and beliefs - as you should know by now.

    --
    Matt B

  20. Matt B said:

    The way the law or regulation is drafted is the responsibility of the
    law maker, so the lawyer cannot be blamed for working to it.

    This sounds uncomfortably close to the "I was only following orders"
    defence" for me to be really happy that things should work this way.

    If you were a parking attendant, and you ticketed vehicles for a
    technical infringement (let's say for example, the resident's permit was
    clearly displayed, but on the nearside of the windscreen instead of the
    offside) would you expect that the vehicle owner you importuned in this
    way would (a) accept that you were only working to instructions handed
    down to you, or (b) consider that you were being frankly a bit silly and
    not actually helping in the bigger scheme of things?

    The fact that the system is arguably broken does not give anyone a moral
    right to exploit it for personal gain at the expense of the social good.
    Just like leaving your house unlocked doesn't make it OK for someone to
    burgle it.

    -dan

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