Importance of Long Rides

[yeaux]

I've been evaluating my past season's training and realized that I've not done many rides longer than 3 hours long, regardless of the intensity. After reading some training articles, like the "The Next Level" article by Hunter Allen, he really seems to advocate the importance of long rides around 5 hours that really leave you wiped out in order to improve. In the past, I have done a lot of SST/L4 and mixing in higher intensities, but few longer rides of this duration. Just wondering what the rest of you think. Thanks.

 

[danfoz]

Depending on your experience level, I think there's some flexibility. If you are a Cat1/2 then yes, 5+ hours. But if are just looking to get stronger on the bike or jump up in the lower Cats, 3+ hours is great.

I'm certainly no uber coach, but I do have some miles in my legs and lower level certs and have dabbled so please don't quote me, but here imo are the two important reasons for longer rides:
1) Central conditioning theory - holds the notion that lower intensity riding directly affects the size of the hearts left ventricle, and the amount of blood that can be moved in a single stroke. Apparently growth peaks out around 75% of mxHR so there is no additional benefit to going harder. Maximum benefit comes from maximum volume. Other adaptations (peripheral conditioning), i.e. capilarization, mitochondrial adaptations, lactate procesing, etc. do occur at the higher intensities.
2) I6 (Interleukin 6) - which has been termed by some as the "endurance" hormone. This is found in high levels in cancer patients, but also in endurance athletes where it functions slightly differently. Some evidence suggests that riding to glycogen depletion can spur an increase in this hormone. I believe in part this is what Allen was refering to even though he didn't use these terms. But he did use "leg shattering" rides, and that one should get home with legs shaking and exhausted and completely spent. I6 was measured to be 100 times in greater abundance after these glycogen depleting rides. It is not neccesarily how long these rides are but how they are ridden. Completing longer rides with a fuel tank always topped off seemed to minimize the subsequent fitness gain. Getting home with the fuel tank on "E" was the key. Anecdotally this notion is somewhat supported by something I read by Gilbert Duclose Lasalle or some other french hardman that after some long ride wher he ran out of food he was absolutely destroyed but a week or two later was able to ride like the wind.

Credence? I dunno, just repeating what I've heard.

Btw, "Next Level" was a great read and re-invogorated me after a season of feeling a little wiped out and quite frankly feeling "stuck" in my progress.

 

[yeaux]

Yeah, I've been feeling that same way. Some life commitments that I had this year (remodeling my house) will no longer be present this fall and next Summer, so I'll have more ability to devote portions of my weekend to longer rides such as these. Hunter described these leg-shattering rides in the next level - do you think they should include L4 or SST work, be strictly L2, or a mix like a kitchen sink? I got the impression that the duration is what matters.

Also, I read Cutting Edge Cycling recently, and the studies referenced that show athletes that had a bunch of low-intensity training did better in the long run than those that did more high intensity or moderate intensity was intriguing. I'm a CAT 4 and have been for the past two full seasons. Been placing around top 10 consistently this year, and am just looking for what I haven't been doing that I could try to get better and longer rides appear to be it.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I have been doing a lot of longer duration rides on Saturday this year compared to years past, but for different reasons. The problem that I have is managing the TSS for the ride as to what it does to me in the following days. When I get to 300+ TSS I typically cross the line where it impacts my following training days. Most of the time I have no choice but to take some days off following. Being able to stay on a consistent training schedule seems to be more important to me at the moment.

I am still doing 4 to 5 hour training rides on Saturday, but I have backed the intensity down to be more in the 0.75 +/- IF range. My endurance has really improved this year, but mainly I am doing this for mental reasons of learning to cope with extra time in the saddle. I now like doing long distance routes on a regular basis.

9/22/2012
Duration: 4:31:44 (4:42:34)
Work: 1983 kJ
TSS: 234.8 (intensity factor 0.721)
Distance: 73.68 mi

This one I let my intensity get too low
9/15/2012
Duration: 5:28:51 (5:37:44)
Work: 2241 kJ
TSS: 241.8 (intensity factor 0.665)
Distance: 90.776 mi



I have scanned the web and have found guys way more advanced and conditioned than me discussing the Next Level and how it impacted their training. It seemed like a very tough program to follow.

Seems like an important thought is how will this type of long ride fit in with the rest of your training and will it have a negative impact on those days. For me it does unless I keep the intensity lower (250 +/- TSS) and if I do that is it really of any benefit other than just a nice weekend recreational ride? It sure makes a 3 hour ride feel short and easy - mentally anyway.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by yeaux .

Hunter described these leg-shattering rides in the next level - do you think they should include L4 or SST work, be strictly L2, or a mix like a kitchen sink? I got the impression that the duration is what matters.

In the I6 article I read, the recommended strategy to boost the hormone levels was to include 3x20 SST mixed into the L2/3. This pace mows through stored glycogen extraordinarily well. The recommended duration was also to be longer than one's regular rides. It wasn't specified but something like a range of 3-5+ hours was given - it was based on whatever ones current level was. i.e. a newer rider could benefit but obviously wouldn't be doing the same duration as an elite.

And Felt, you got that straight about Next Level. I needed to tweak it down a bit to match my modest Cat4 abilities, and limited training time.

Yeaux, are you wanting to upgrade to 3 on points? As you may know, it's the last upgrade that doesn't require any actual points, just need 25+ races finishing 'mid-pack' with starting fields of greater than 70 (I believe) - it's been awhile since I scrutinized the rulebook.

 

[yeaux]

Danfoz - Yeah, I could have gotten the upgrade based on the amount of races this year, but then I would be getting shredded during CAT 3 races next year. As soon I can regularly contest CAT 4's, I'll upgrade - that's why I'm looking for what to do better. Thanks again for the input.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

All good thoughts above.

Whether one 'needs' long rides is debatable but if you want to keep improving then you do need some form of progressive overload coupled with adequate recovery. That overload could be in the form of added intensity, added ride duration, or for very well trained riders it could be both as suggested in Hunter's Next Level piece. But don't take that article as a literal template for everyone, the key is to keep slowly raising the training bar to give your body a reason to adapt. Too much too quickly and it'll be hard to recover from those big sessions and you'll either scrap other quality work or burn out, not enough raising of the training bar and the body won't have a reason to continue to adapt and training stagnation sets in. But it's a very individual thing and there aren't any hard and fast rules.

FWIW, if your events demand it and your schedule allows it I think most riders benefit from a regular 'long ride' in their schedule. But the length of that ride should be about as long as the rider can maintain decent intensity and focus. Maybe that's just L2 endurance paced riding for some or a long ride with a lot of Tempo/SST or even a kitchen sink style ride hitting a lot of high end work for others (highly trained others) but if the rides are so long they degenerate into slow gruesome slogs or result in bonking or bad cramping or force the rider to skip subsequent planned training sessions then they're likely too long for the rider's current fitness. IOW, a fairly frequent 'long but quality' ride can be a very useful part of a training plan but trying to force things with really long survival rides can be detrimental to a lot of folks.

-Dave

 

[yeaux]

What do you guys think about training the body's ability to use fat as a fuel source? Does this come naturally with lots of L4/SST work since you're pushing up your FTP and raising the bar that your body would start to use more glycogen, or should there be some L2 work to get the body used to burning more fat? Just going back to Hunter's new book and seeing what other informed people think about some of the points that stuck with me from that read. Thanks.

 

[tomw1974]

I think if a major limiter for you in a race (or in training) is that you run out of glycogen, then it's worth looking into. Otherwise, no.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by yeaux .

What do you guys think about training the body's ability to use fat as a fuel source? Does this come naturally with lots of L4/SST work since you're pushing up your FTP and raising the bar that your body would start to use more glycogen, or should there be some L2 work to get the body used to burning more fat? Just going back to Hunter's new book and seeing what other informed people think about some of the points that stuck with me from that read. Thanks.

I read an interview with Andy Hampsten that Jim Ochowicz would have them do long rides at below 65%maxHR (pre-power era) to do just that. However, that is the only place I have heard that particular strategy mentioned in 4 decades.

Edit: It''s my feeling that the body will use whatever fuel source (i.e. fat, glucose, ATP, or combination there-of) is appropriate for the required intensity and that one's level of conditioning in general will have a big role in that, therefore I would simply focus on my aerobic conditioning to achieve this effect. It's been ages since I looked at these materials, I'm sure there are folks here who actually know and are not talking from their feelings.

 

[alienator]

I read an interview with Andy Hampsten that Jim Ochowicz would have them do long rides at below 65%maxHR (pre-power era) to do just that. However, that is the only place I have heard that particular strategy mentioned in 4 decades. Edit: It''s my feeling that the body will use whatever fuel source (i.e. fat, glucose, ATP, or combination there-of) is appropriate for the required intensity and that one's level of conditioning in general will have a big role in that, therefore I would simply focus on my aerobic conditioning to achieve this effect. It's been ages since I looked at these materials, I'm sure there are folks here who actually know and are not talking from their feelings.

Supposedly you can train your body to use fat more quickly by riding in the morning before eating breakfast, ever increasing the time you pedal before reaching for an energy drink, bar, or summat.

 

[frost]

Originally Posted by danfoz .


Edit: It''s my feeling that the body will use whatever fuel source (i.e. fat, glucose, ATP, or combination there-of) is appropriate for the required intensity and that one's level of conditioning in general will have a big role in that, therefore I would simply focus on my aerobic conditioning to achieve this effect. It's been ages since I looked at these materials, I'm sure there are folks here who actually know and are not talking from their feelings.

I belong to the group who are talking from feelings as you put it but let's say that I have read some of those who actually know say almost exactly what you state above /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[daveryanwyoming]

+2 danfoz, the most effective way to use a higher percentage of fats as you ride is to ride at a lower intensity. Or looked at another way, keep working on your sustainable power (FTP) so that the pace you'd like to ride is a lower percentage of your FTP. IOW, if your FTP is 250 watts and you want to ride a pace that requires 225 watts then you'll be working at 90% of your FTP and you'll mostly be burning sugars (glycogen, blood glucose, blood lactate...) to support that effort. Train to bring your FTP up to 300 watts and that same 225 pace will only be 75% of your FTP and regardless of how you trained to raise your FTP you will burn a much higher percentage of fat at that relatively reduced intensity but same absolute power (speed).

There's always someone pushing a training plan that is supposed to 'train your body' to use more fats. It often involves fasting or super low carb diets along with training. There's really very little evidence that anything like that works and usually it just translates to folks riding slower and at lower intensities which is certainly one way to burn a higher percentage of fats but usually isn't the goal for most folks. If you want to burn more fats AND maintain or increase your pace then the proven way is to train to sustain more power and raise your FTP.

OTOH if you want to train to store more muscle glycogen so you don't burn through your limited stores as rapidly then make sure you include some longer rides in your schedule as that is also backed by good exercise science.

-Dave