It's killing me but..........

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle
There's nothing wrong with that mindset and approach - if you're enjoying the journey just for the journey then why not?

The problem I sometimes find with a very goal focused approach is what to do when you achieve it? The Alps is a good case in point for me, as I got back 2 weeks ago and can honestly say I achieved every goal I had for that event and then some. Admittedly I came home with a bit of a nasty bug that knocked me for six for 2 weeks, but even so the problem for me now is what next and why get out on the bike? Luckily I already signed up for a week of classic Vuelta climbs in the Picos, but thats not until Oct 2015. Now I need to find some other goals to motivate me through autumn and winter.... Right now the focus is to hit 12,000km this year which means another 3000km before Xmas. Hopefully that will get me out there and also fit well with my goals for next year and I'll enjoy the journey as well.

I'm quite looking forward to the time I just ride for the social side and to enjoy weekend club rides to the coffee shop

Do you have a link to the ride in Spain?

 

[Bigpikle]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

Do you have a link to the ride in Spain?

here you go - excellent company I've done 2 long trips with and cant fault in any way.

http://www.marmot-tours.co.uk/Road-Cycling-Holidays/classic-cols-picos.html

 

[swampy1970]

Well, the Cracken (Crackenfail, nickname for early Cannondales - aka my Cannondale SuperSix Hi-Mod) has been rebuilt. The shorter cranks have migrated from the Tri bike as has the ISM Attack Saddle (for now at least)...

... the last two years of riding have been, well, ****. I suffered through the 400km and failed spectacularly at the Alta Alpina Challenge this year. The Death Ride was an ordeal I'd rather not go through again. Familiarity with the climbs, a power meter and common sense to work out how low of a gear I'd really need rather than need to look cool, prevailed. FWIW, 26x32 was the bottom gear installed and I needed it. 214lbs in the high mountains does not compute at all.

Just the fact that the event that I wanted to do next year, the Furnace Creek 508, no longer uses the Furnace Creek route through Death Valley due to politicians in Commiefornia (aka California) meant my interest in training just died.

I find it odd that when I raced I yearned for the massive climbs in France yet was stuck riding a 100 mile loop in order to get in sub 15 minute climbs like Holme Moss, yet I move here and just over 100 miles away I can be 8,000+ft up and one barren mountain roads but I don't ride them. Where's the "facepalm" emoticon? Even with my step-daughter moving to Nevada and my favorite route going to her house involves going over some of the passes of the Death Ride, I still havent' taken the opportunity to get up there more often on the bike.

So, after screwing my back up on my first ride in ages (while bending over to adjust the bars), the Cracken is alive once again. Some gentle rides to get back in the swing of things and hopefully I'll be working with someone that knows his onions when it comes to training. Despite knowing more than just the basics, I need someone to keep me honest. I have a couple of goals that are about as diverse as could be but I know there'll be someway to tie them together... Well, that won't be my job - I'll might be paying for someone to figure that out and leave the riding to me.

The last two weeks off the bike, one week of which was vacation that was spent in pain on the couch, gave me enough opportunity to review the last 6 years of power meter data. What worked, what didn't - power cranks, lots of 300lbs one legged squats on the machine, plus different types of on the bike training. A cornucopia of data combined with what kept me healthy and interested...

The only thing I'm worried about is the motion for the hips and "interest" - if I get those two nailed the weight and power will take care of themselves.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

Just a thought for all to ponder, if you don't have a racing reason as such, why not reverse the training season - do the intervals and mega intense stuff in winter when you're forced to stay indoors and the longer L2 and L3 work (with kitchen sink L4, 5 and 6) in the summer? Why force yourself to hours of stationary training indoors when there's no event as such during the summer?

Lot's of good things in your post to consider. This is kind of where I have been going and it all kind of seems to mesh together as a general plan. The training momentum is going well in general so I would like to keep it going while I am motivated and the body seems to be tolerant for the most part. I have been somewhat concerned with the Kickr. Even though I tested power again another power meter and the two were close enough it just seemed like things were progressing too fast and I have had my doubts about the Kickr's wattage in these L5 sessions.

I've been doing a lot of 4 x 8's and 4 x 10's at the very tip top of L4 or even into my L5. I bumped up my FTP a couple weeks back based on some indoor tests and training numbers. Yesterday I joined a few friends for a group ride. While we all wanted to keep the intensity down the route itself had enough challenges. There was one climb just over a mile long at about 8% gradient. I never really attempted to hammer the hill since we still had a lot of miles to go. I just threw it down on the 30 / 28 and went up. I never even felt as if I was breathing hard or pushing hard. When I got home I was surprised to see that my AP/NP was 5 watts over my FTP for the 9 minutes it took to get to the top. I wouldn't have been surprised about that had I got to the crest and been doubled over the bars about to puke, but it seemed pretty easy.

So it seems that since I have been doing those types of 4 x 10's fit that particular hill climb. I am kind of happy about it.

I feel like endurance is also in balance with the shorter intervals as well. I doubt I will be super motivated to do 4 to 5 hours in super cold weather, but until then I will continue to put in some saddle time on Saturday's or throw in a group ride like yesterday and enjoy the fall riding with friends.

Originally Posted by swampy1970
if I get those two nailed the weight and power will take care of themselves.

In the span of years I think we will all go through the slumps of training and riding. I can imagine when you get through the back and hip issues that will allow you to train and ride more comfortably everything else will fall into place. I always feel like I am just at the brink of my back and hips going into an extreme spasm. I hope you can get it all panned out.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I loves cyclin' loves it Inside, outside, upside down.......well that upside down didn't help my shoulder, but the road rash has healed

August highlight - I was reintroduced to Mr Pavement. It's been few years, but I feel like I don't need to meet him again for a while.


September highlight - I started getting into the groove using the Kickr and TrainerRoad with some more spicy stuff up into L5.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I think I am finally at the point to say, "this worked for me." But I am cautious to note that I have witnessed others do well under the "ride with guys and gals that are faster than you and you will get better." Riding with people faster than me is where this journey began as a recreational level cyclist. Since then I have seen other cycling newbies ask what to do when they get dropped early from a group ride and even some that are starting to race getting dropped early on.

The problem for me years ago was that I was already attempting to ride with people faster than me and rather than improving like some do I was not improving and it only proved to be discouraging. What I could see is that I would be just shattered physically after attempting to keep up to the point I could barely ride for several days after constantly burning matches and emotionally it was frustrating. At the same time I really like this group of guys and gals and wanted to be part of their group. It was a couple of guys that rarely did group rides but were well above this level that had influence on getting a power meter, pull away from the group because they were too far above my fitness level and start building fitness by training consistently (add more hours to my training week). Then I started watching this thread and taking note that the same sentiment was expressed here from two guys, RDO and Dave, that had the same perspective as my two local friends. By using L4 it was enough to stimulate, but not so hard that it meant you had to take days off to recover. Based on my friend's advice I pulled away from riding with that group and started training solo and I was able to control the intensity to match my current fitness level and inch my way up.

Last year I finally reached that goal in being able to hang with the best of the guys and gals in that group regardless of route challenges and their attempts to shell each other off the back. I was able to endure the mayhem and be in the final group coming into the parking lot, but still my fitness level was just enough to get that done. Following those rides I would still be sore at the end of the ride and need at least a couple days to recover.

So that raised my goal again to continue to improve my fitness so that I could do these frisky group rides, but have enough fitness that I would be more toward my new L2 or L3 so that even though there would be a number of attacks during the ride I could do those and it not cost me to much on recovery time so that I could still train consistently. I think I can say that I think I am about there with this particular group. It is important to note that I am still far below being able to hang with good Cat 4's so I am still down at the recreational level of cyclists.

So my posting the past two months of WKO has special meaning to me and that is pick a plan that allows for training consistency and stick as best possible to that plan and see how it works. In my case I feel like it is working, whereas, the plan to ride with faster riders and keep doing that until you can hang with them did not seem to work for me. Plus it was discouraging to be constantly dropped off the back. This path, though maybe it is a little slower, has been a more encouraging path for me to reach some of those earlier goals. I still have lots and lots of work to do as I inch my way toward that 4 watts/kg mark.

I will say that I have seen some that have been able to do the other plan and succeed. I wonder though if those who are able to hang with more advanced riders are better genetically blessed for the activity and also have the ability to recover faster from such an aggressive ride that is well over their current fitness level. There is a local female that is constantly giving the advice to others to ride with faster cyclists until you are able to keep up. She also holds virtually every QOM in our metro area and typically rides with all guys that are noted to be Cat 3's and higher. I can only imagine that her genetics have allowed her to take that path and be successful. Just guessing.

 

[Felt_Rider]

As mentioned earlier my goal for 2014 was to refine the L4 column in my spreadsheet.

For 2015 I hope to take on even more of a polarized appearance to that spreadsheet where there is a divide between L1-L2 and L4-L5 so that I try to reduce time in the L3 column. I am finally coming to that spot of training evolution to attempt to cut out that middle ground level. I don't see anything wrong with L3 when it comes to intentional sweet spot training concept that has L3 time. There are adaptations in L3, but I am now seeing how trying to stay down into more of a relaxed L1-L2 weekend ride (solo or group) helps me to be a little fresher for those important days of L4-L5.

This also works well that I can ride with some select guys that have the same view where we can go out and just enjoy a recreational level easy paced countryside type of ride and I can be fresh enough Tuesday through Thursday to just shred myself with short duration indoor training.

I hope to see a bit more refinement for 2015 in this chart. I don't think I can totally eliminate time in L3 and don't plan on attempting it, but I do hope this chart appears a bit different for 2015. September shows a reduction in L3 and that will be my new goal.

 

[BrianMacDonald]

So I contacted Wahoo support and they recommended that I ensure the Kickr was calibrated correctly using the calibration kit they supply.
So my kit came in the mail and I did the calibration the way they recommended. I was still seeing about a 19% difference between the Kickr and the Stages.

While I was corresponding with support I decided to do a calibration ride with my Powertap and the Stages on my old trainer. The result of this was that the Stages and Powertap are not in sync as much as I had thought. The Powertap was between 5 and 8% higher than the Stages.

This is different than I had found from the outdoor group ride that I had done with both pm's.

Wahoo support suggested that I do a spindown after about 30 minutes of riding on the Kickr. So I rode for 30 minutes and did a calibration and a spindown. After I did this the difference between the Kickr and the Stages was about 11%.

I thought about just adding some weight to the calibration to change the calibration slightly. Wahoo rather emphatically suggested that I not do this.

So the conclusion of all of this is that 1) Spindowns (and calibrations if you are going that route) need to be done when the Kickr is very warm and 2) the Kickr and the Powertap seem to give very similar power measurements. In my case the Kickr is high by about 5% which isn't bad.

It would seem that any confusion that I had was caused by the Stages reading being too low, not the Kickr being too high. I will need to figure out where that leaves me with the Stages.

Wahoo support did confirm that they are working on a firmware uppdate to the Kickr that will allow it to match other powermeters. No word yet on what their target release date is. I'll report back when and if they tell me.

 

[swampy1970]

Working on an update to match other powermeters? How about they work on an update to make their unit accurately measure power period?

 

[swampy1970]

The simple things - like being back on the bike despite the ride being short and slow, was ace. Enjoyed being back on the Cannondale and adding the new wheels made things even "stiffer yet more plush." Makes me just want to get fit and smash it in the hills and enjoy the descents deep in oxygen debt. Climb in L4 and 5 - descend L5 and 6... Just the way it should be.

 

[Bigpikle]

I cant complain at all about my Kickr - it reads slightly lower than my Quarg, but has been steady in that difference since day 1. I expect some difference as you always get some loss in the drivetrain with Quarq obviously cranks and Kickr at the rear wheel, so a few % is perfectly acceptable. I dont see any noticeable differences when I do a spindown, but as a long time PM user I have created the habit of regular calibrations during all my sessions/rides, and do spindowns on the Kickr in the longer rest periods on interval workouts. The changes in offset are minute or non existent after a warm up it seems.

 

[swampy1970]

Well that'd didn't kill me. 25 minutes of somewhat spirited riding.

Really liking the ISM Attack on the road bike.

Can't wait for the back to feel less still and awkward - then I could probably drop the bars by about 2ft! LOL

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle
I cant complain at all about my Kickr

Flat out cannot express it enough and mainly because I very excited that the Kickr / TrainerRoad has become my best investment so far for training. I have made this statement before and may say it again in the future for something else. Since I do the majority of my training indoors year round it slightly edges out the power meters that I have. Also to restate that I was very skeptical about paying a yearly payment to use TrainerRoad. There are some free programs out there now that are similar, such as, Veloreality has a free software download that is similar to TR, but for now this is working great.

My training has really started to change for what I think will be better than the past number of years combined. I did okay using the combination of a power meter equipped bike on eMotion rollers, but simply could not get my training up into that L5 area and solid as I can with this bike locked into place and erg mode controlling the resistance so that all I have to do is grit my teeth through the discomfort until the interval is over and then let the Kickr readjust to a rest level resistance and then go at it again. Letting the application and the trainer do this lets me simply concentrate on keeping the cadence up until the end of the interval.

So this has become much like I am accustomed to doing with my former success in lifting. For the past number of weeks I have settled into 3 TR workouts that suit my current goal in this period.

• Tuesday - TR workout called Jacks, but I have customized it to give 3 minutes of rest between 4 x 8 minute intervals. I have also bumped up the intensity by a few watts each week by using the % button..
• Wednesday - TR workout called Gray, which is a 2 x 20 and I bump the intensity up to the top of L4
• Thursday - TR workout called Geothe, which is a 4 x 10 with 1 minute rest between intervals. It is in the L5 range and I have bumped up the intensity by a few watts each week by using the % button.

I plan on making a spreadsheet to start tracking progress with this structure. As I have bumped up the % a little each week I keep thinking "okay today I will fail" and you saw one of those last week on Strava where I did not make it past the second interval. Just like lifting I don't expect every session to go as planned, but so far I seem to keep trending in a good direction.

As you mentioned I've settled into a certain warmup protocol, do a spindown and then start the TR workout. I have become relaxed on the Kickr accuracy thing. Mine tested very close to my Quarq, but more important based on RPE I can testify that in my TR L5 it is highly discomforting and most importantly I am starting to see some positive performance things out on the road that I had never reached before.

The most important thing in my view is having equipment that makes training more motivation to become consistent. Meaning I could never get used to the feel of the KK fluid trainer. It is a great piece of equipment and many have used it successfully. I used it, but I was never eager to use it. I like using the eMotion rollers and felt good on them, but with the Kickr I actually start thinking just after lunch at work about getting home to train. I've never been as eager to train indoors in cycling like this before where I cannot wait to get home and see if I can endure and set a new 5, 10 or 20 minute best effort.

 

[swampy1970]

When I used to start shorter intervals (sub 10 minutes) I used to see consistent increases after the first few weeks. After a few months the difference between current and initial power was always quite large.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

When I used to start shorter intervals (sub 10 minutes) I used to see consistent increases after the first few weeks. After a few months the difference between current and initial power was always quite large.

I hope to see some positive results like you have in the past. I am still evolving and have not yet jumped into true classic type Vo2max intervals close the 5 minute mark. I am still out toward the 8 and 10 minute marks so my interval intensity will be on the border of L4 and L5 with some complete efforts totally in one or the other. On Tuesday is my best opportunity to get into L5 with how my structure is currently arranged. Because I come out of the weekend with endurance type rides and then train legs on Monday I can typically hit L5 before the DOMS from lifting starts to hit on Wednesday. By Wednesday I begin to struggle with cycling intervals, but I can manage to hit my targets lately.

It is kind of embarrassing to post the following, but it is just the truth of my current data and a low FTP. I might as well just put it out there.
I am now treating training kind of like how I trained to increase my squat, bench or any other lift where I would simply try increase weight incrementally until I reached my hopeful peak strength. In this case rather than throwing more plates on the bar I am increasing my targets for 5, 10 and 20 minutes. The 30 and 60 are lower in the chart because I have not intentionally targeted those duration lengths yet. This is starting to look more like polarized training where I focus on upping the short duration during the weekday and then weekends get to enjoy a longer ride out on the road at a casual recreational type pace. I have kind of changed my focus from just pure FTP view to more of hitting those duration/watt targets. I would imagine FTP will move as a result.

1. Increase time trained at top of L4+
2. Keep trying to slowly/incrementally increase wattage each week on at least one of the intervals for each session.

I dare not say that this is good training for anyone because my goals are far different than most on this or other cycling forums. But it seems to fit my life schedule, my primary training goals in lifting, my perspective on general health and mostly I am having a really fun time in this schedule. But I wouldn't mind if I see some improvement by next spring.

 

[swampy1970]

You'll see improvements. I have no doubt about that. Top end work done right seems to bring the quickest gains but without the foundation also brings the biggest losses when you stop. My personal experience brought me good gains around the 6 to 8 week mark. I can't recall seeing much before that. Those gains continued onto 12 to 14 weeks. Past that I can't say as I don't recall doing that training longer. Maybe I needed too. Caveat - I've never done periods just dedicated to longer VO2 efforts. It's always been the kitchen sink of 10 minutes and less. The longer intervals would only get one effort. 5 minute ones usually 2 or 3 repeats, 2 and 1 minute efforts 5 to 8 repeats with a minute inbetween and the kamikaze 30 second efforts had the most. These were done with the intent of lactate tolerance. I've never done short intervals where I've had enough time to fully recover between each effort. Out of all the above, the 30 second efforts done with no regard to pacing, were the most fun and the 1 minute efforts, especially when "done wrong/too hard at the start" we're the worst.

 

[jiberish2014]

Hello, just finished reading this thread cover to cover. Spread among it were solutions to every issue I've encountered in cycling, and between the change in my training plan, fixing the numbness/saddle issues, and using power instead of heart rate I can honestly say it changed my cycling career in the best way possible.

A few observations from the journey:

Lots of people do 2x20 3 times a week for 2 hours at L4. In weeks Tyson did 3 hours or more he always had a power jump the following week, whereas it would take 2-3 weeks when he did less. This trend was less exact but continued with others. It would suggest 3 hours a week be set as a lower bound for L4 training, with 6 hours a week being the upper bound of recovery (unless its RDO).

Instead of doing an output that is difficult enough to make 2x20 necessary, drop into higher L3 and work up to doing 1x60, or 3x20 with under a minute break between. Going back up to 91% / L4 will be quick, retesting FTP will become unnecessary, and getting 3 hours a week is much easier.

Felt_rider gave some good advice on recovery nutrition, and I would like to add to it. Most of cycling recovery is closer to recovering from a hangover than recovering from a weight or other sporting workout. The muscle damage from L4 or less comes from time spent depleted of glycogen / fluids / electrolytes / protein catabolism. Once I started prerecovering I was able to go from 1x60 3x a week to 5-6x a week. The 3:1 or 4:1 carbrotein shake right after a ride is vital, by starting to drink it 20 minutes before a ride starts, and drinking another after it finishes, time spent in depletion is minimal. How much to drink depends on calorie expenditure, but most trained cyclists get 50-70% of calories from fat (with 50% at threshold being much more likely). On 2 hour+ efforts drinking that much without issues is difficult, but for shorter durations it made a big difference.

For indoor cooling in a 75-78F room a Lasko Pro Performance Blower Fan, 4900 on Amazon will run $66, will blow your hair back from across the room, and is quiet enough to still watch TV. On max I have to wear a shirt so that I don't get too cold.

Lastly a huge thank you to Tyson, RDO, Dave, swampy, Js, Felt, and all the other contributors who gave expert advice that works, for free, for 8+ years. That goes beyond sportsmanship and speaks volumes to your character.

 

[swampy1970]

I wouldn't go as far to say I gave 'expert advice' but thanks . They were just my observations from chasing the dream back in the 80's and 90's. I was lucky to be coached by a guy that probably forgot more about cycling than I remember.

I don't think there's too much mystery about Tyson's progress on weeks where he did more. I really don't think that 2x20 is a training session. I think it was RDO who said years ago "it's a warm up." Personally, if you only have time to do 2x20 then you do it right on the money - 100% threshold, save the 90-95% for when you're incorporating it in a training ride. I don't get the 'mentally tiring' aspect of doing too many hard efforts in training - some nutjob is always going to throw the hammer down in a race when you really don't want it. I can't see cries of "I'm not mentally ready for this, plus my legs are hurting...Where's my mommy!!!" going over too well. Suck it up and smash the pedals, damn it. If you're truly too tired to do it, then you need a rest.

Powercranks. Greatest invention ever. For those who think you should pull up hard and train for it - these are for you. Do the least possible to get the pedal up and spend all your time mashing the cranks down in angry fashion using the glutes and hamstrings. It took these funky cranks for me to learn that - YMMV. I always mentally got the concept of 'get the pedal up and smash it down using the big muscles' but I could never get the physical aspect of it down until I got these. The first 3 months are infuriating, even for someone that thought they used to "pull up" well - the fact is you don't. Once I learned how to do it I could spend all the time thinking about pushing harder. Once I figured out the pushing harder part, my quads never died a million deaths like they used to. When you do it's like the proverbial 'running on a log in the water' - the log spins, you need to keep running otherwise you fall in. With the Spankycranks, you push hard otherwise you feel the gear running away from you - 42 seconds to oxygen debt when you figure out glutes/hamstring = good and quads = bad. Brain = confused. Push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push, gasp, gasp, gasp, gasp. f**k.

A power meter. This should be the first purchase after a frame that fits.

Sleep > funky training methods. Sleep lots, recover, arrive mentally fresh to train. Train hard, sleep well, arrive fresh... rinse and repeat. I'm writing this post at 12:22am. Don't follow my lead...

Always try and ride with people that are better than you. If you want to race join a club that has fast lads or find a coach that coaches fast lads. If you lose motivation during a long summer of training, do mid week races. If you still lose motivation take up knitting. I took up drinking even more beer. Again, don't follow my example on that one.

I wouldn't drink a high energy/carb/protein drink 20 minutes before a ride. If you have your dietary needs down you shouldn't need to feel the need to start imbibing carbs/protein before the ride. Wait until 15 to 20 minutes into the ride. To start, err on the long side between drinks and see if you bonk when training. Feel free to follow this one. Ever wonder why your typical pack of Sunday road warriors aren't lean mean hillclimbing machines? They drink enough to fuel themselves for a 291 mile ride prior to a 47 mile jaunt.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by jiberish2014
A few observations from the journey:
Lots of people do 2x20 3 times a week for 2 hours at L4. In weeks Tyson did 3 hours or more he always had a power jump the following week, whereas it would take 2-3 weeks when he did less. This trend was less exact but continued with others.

Wow, lots of reading! I would add that one other major lesson is that you can improve your FTP without ever riding at or above FTP. In fact, unless you are severely time-constrained, you will likely make more progress doing more volume at 90-95%FTP versus less volume at 100%FTP. Of course, if you have only enough time for a 2x20, then do them at 100%FTP.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by jiberish2014
Hello, just finished reading this thread cover to cover. Spread among it were solutions to every issue I've encountered in cycling, and between the change in my training plan, fixing the numbness/saddle issues, and using power instead of heart rate I can honestly say it changed my cycling career in the best way possible.

Wow! is right
Thanks for sharing and you are welcome to hang out with us