Newbie, just starting, question!



N

Nina

Guest
Before I wrote this, I spent a lot of time reading the FAQ and a ton
of low-carb sites, and I can't seem to find anything that specifically
addresses this.

I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as I'm
trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't been
able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30 carb/day
range. And while the immediate effects of this have been pretty
positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel, well,
"weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to move in a
way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being generally
hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it still feels odd).
Headachy.

Most side effect lists mention things like carb cravings (of which I
have none) or muscle aches... nothing that seems like this to me. I
think I'd just kind of like someone to tell me that it's normal to
feel odd adjusting to a different type of food, and that I'll feel
more like myself soon!

Nina
 
Hello Nina and welcome to the group.


Nina wrote:
> Before I wrote this, I spent a lot of time reading the FAQ and a ton
> of low-carb sites, and I can't seem to find anything that specifically
> addresses this.


How refreshing!

> I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as I'm
> trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't been
> able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30 carb/day
> range. And while the immediate effects of this have been pretty
> positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel, well,
> "weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to move in a
> way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being generally
> hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it still feels odd).
> Headachy.
>
> Most side effect lists mention things like carb cravings (of which I
> have none) or muscle aches... nothing that seems like this to me. I
> think I'd just kind of like someone to tell me that it's normal to
> feel odd adjusting to a different type of food, and that I'll feel
> more like myself soon!
>
> Nina


If it's only been a few days you've been feeling funny, I'd guess it's
just your body adjusting.

Cause hey, it's normal to feel odd adjusting to a different type of
food, and that you'll feel more like yourself soon! ;)

Seriously, it is different. Take it easy, don't do too much exercising
until you finish adjusting a bit. See how you feel in another week or
two before deciding if this will work well for you; it does take time.

Good luck!

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/
 
On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:27:21 -0500, Jackie Patti <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Hello Nina and welcome to the group.
>
>
>Nina wrote:
>> Before I wrote this, I spent a lot of time reading the FAQ and a ton
>> of low-carb sites, and I can't seem to find anything that specifically
>> addresses this.

>
>How refreshing!


:)

>> I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as I'm
>> trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't been
>> able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30 carb/day
>> range. And while the immediate effects of this have been pretty
>> positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel, well,
>> "weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to move in a
>> way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being generally
>> hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it still feels odd).
>> Headachy.
>>
>> Most side effect lists mention things like carb cravings (of which I
>> have none) or muscle aches... nothing that seems like this to me. I
>> think I'd just kind of like someone to tell me that it's normal to
>> feel odd adjusting to a different type of food, and that I'll feel
>> more like myself soon!
>>
>> Nina

>
>If it's only been a few days you've been feeling funny, I'd guess it's
>just your body adjusting.
>
>Cause hey, it's normal to feel odd adjusting to a different type of
>food, and that you'll feel more like yourself soon! ;)


Thank you!

>Seriously, it is different. Take it easy, don't do too much exercising
>until you finish adjusting a bit. See how you feel in another week or
>two before deciding if this will work well for you; it does take time.


I think it's partly that I've been eating a pretty low fat diet for
the last couple of years (with, I might add, absolutely no weight loss
at all), and the higher fat level just makes me feel, well, fat.
(Which I am, but I'd like to feel less fat!) It took me quite a while
to get used to a far lower level of fat... and like it, really... but
now this level of fat is just not what I'm used to.

I am really hoping that this will work, though, because I am really
tired of being hungry and tired all the time AND not losing weight.

Nina
 
Nina wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:27:21 -0500, Jackie Patti <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Nina and welcome to the group.
>>
>>
>> Nina wrote:
>>> Before I wrote this, I spent a lot of time reading the FAQ and a ton
>>> of low-carb sites, and I can't seem to find anything that specifically
>>> addresses this.

>> How refreshing!

>
> :)
>
>>> I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as I'm
>>> trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't been
>>> able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30 carb/day
>>> range. And while the immediate effects of this have been pretty
>>> positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel, well,
>>> "weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to move in a
>>> way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being generally
>>> hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it still feels odd).
>>> Headachy.
>>>
>>> Most side effect lists mention things like carb cravings (of which I
>>> have none) or muscle aches... nothing that seems like this to me. I
>>> think I'd just kind of like someone to tell me that it's normal to
>>> feel odd adjusting to a different type of food, and that I'll feel
>>> more like myself soon!
>>>
>>> Nina

>> If it's only been a few days you've been feeling funny, I'd guess it's
>> just your body adjusting.
>>
>> Cause hey, it's normal to feel odd adjusting to a different type of
>> food, and that you'll feel more like yourself soon! ;)

>
> Thank you!
>
>> Seriously, it is different. Take it easy, don't do too much exercising
>> until you finish adjusting a bit. See how you feel in another week or
>> two before deciding if this will work well for you; it does take time.

>
> I think it's partly that I've been eating a pretty low fat diet for
> the last couple of years (with, I might add, absolutely no weight loss
> at all), and the higher fat level just makes me feel, well, fat.
> (Which I am, but I'd like to feel less fat!) It took me quite a while
> to get used to a far lower level of fat... and like it, really... but
> now this level of fat is just not what I'm used to.
>
> I am really hoping that this will work, though, because I am really
> tired of being hungry and tired all the time AND not losing weight.
>
> Nina
>
>
>


My experience was that taking shortcuts was a waste of time and energy.

Only when I got tired of lack of success and went back and read the bulk
of the Atkins book again did I follow what the plan had in it, rather
than what I "felt" was equivalent and easier, did the weight come
rolling off.
 
Nina wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:27:21 -0500, Jackie Patti <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Nina and welcome to the group.
>>
>>
>> Nina wrote:
>>> Before I wrote this, I spent a lot of time reading the FAQ and a ton
>>> of low-carb sites, and I can't seem to find anything that
>>> specifically addresses this.

>>
>> How refreshing!

>
> :)
>
>>> I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as
>>> I'm trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't
>>> been able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30
>>> carb/day range. And while the immediate effects of this have been
>>> pretty positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel,
>>> well, "weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to
>>> move in a way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being
>>> generally hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it
>>> still feels odd). Headachy.
>>>
>>> Most side effect lists mention things like carb cravings (of which I
>>> have none) or muscle aches... nothing that seems like this to me. I
>>> think I'd just kind of like someone to tell me that it's normal to
>>> feel odd adjusting to a different type of food, and that I'll feel
>>> more like myself soon!
>>>
>>> Nina

>>
>> If it's only been a few days you've been feeling funny, I'd guess
>> it's just your body adjusting.
>>
>> Cause hey, it's normal to feel odd adjusting to a different type of
>> food, and that you'll feel more like yourself soon! ;)

>
> Thank you!
>
>> Seriously, it is different. Take it easy, don't do too much
>> exercising until you finish adjusting a bit. See how you feel in
>> another week or two before deciding if this will work well for you;
>> it does take time.

>
> I think it's partly that I've been eating a pretty low fat diet for
> the last couple of years (with, I might add, absolutely no weight loss
> at all), and the higher fat level just makes me feel, well, fat.
> (Which I am, but I'd like to feel less fat!) It took me quite a while
> to get used to a far lower level of fat... and like it, really... but
> now this level of fat is just not what I'm used to.
>
> I am really hoping that this will work, though, because I am really
> tired of being hungry and tired all the time AND not losing weight.
>


Welcome Nina:) You can't be in a better place for the help you need:)

best

Ophelia
 
Nina <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as I'm
> trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't been
> able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30 carb/day
> range. And while the immediate effects of this have been pretty
> positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel, well,
> "weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to move in a
> way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being generally
> hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it still feels odd).
> Headachy.


All classic symptoms of early ketonuria for plenty of people. In
about two weeks the body makes an adjustment and most of it
goes away. Except the thirst which seems to last a lot longer
for some folks.

As to feeling stuffed, you're learning that fat and protein is just as
filling as carb calorie for calorie but the hunger doesn't come back
nearly as soon. In the long run that's probably the single biggest
advantage that low carbing has.
 
Nina wrote:

> I think it's partly that I've been eating a pretty low fat diet for
> the last couple of years (with, I might add, absolutely no weight loss
> at all), and the higher fat level just makes me feel, well, fat.
> (Which I am, but I'd like to feel less fat!) It took me quite a while
> to get used to a far lower level of fat... and like it, really... but
> now this level of fat is just not what I'm used to.
>
> I am really hoping that this will work, though, because I am really
> tired of being hungry and tired all the time AND not losing weight.


I had that experience also. I did a very strict low-fat diet for a year.

Since I'm diabetic, this was a disaster. This was a long time ago,
before I had a bg meter. Hate to think what my bg must've been that year.

I was hungry all the time also. And bloated. And by the end of the
year, I wound up so fatigued, I could barely get to work and spent all
the rest of my time in bed. And... I gained weight!

My body just doesn't like low-fat. I've been low-carbing for over a
decade now and it works very well for me.

That doesn't mean it will be best for you, but it will take a couple
weeks before your body adjusts and then you can see how you feel.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/
 
Nina <[email protected]> writes:

> I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as I'm
> trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't been
> able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30 carb/day
> range. And while the immediate effects of this have been pretty
> positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel, well,
> "weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to move in a
> way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being generally
> hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it still feels odd).
> Headachy.


Thirst can be an issue; low-carbers tend to need more water for a couple
reasons. When the body stores extra sugar as glycogen in places like
the muscles, it stores water along with it. In the early days of
low-carb, you tend to burn off a lot of this glycogen, releasing the
water that was with it, so you don't have that large reserve of water
anymore. The body also uses water to flush out the ketones that are
produced when you burn fat. To put it simply, when you're low-carbing,
the body needs more water for all the things it's trying to do.

I rarely get headaches anymore, but when I do, I can usually attribute
it to mild dehydration, because it'll come after a day I was out doing
stuff and not getting my usual fluids. So those two might be tied
together. Make sure to drink plenty of water. (I get about a gallon a
day in the form of weak, unsweetened, decaf tea.) Also, making sure you
get enough potassium and salt will help ensure you retain enough water
that you won't get dehydrated suddenly.

I think I know what you mean about feeling "weird." I called it
"restless laziness." It was like I could feel this restless energy that
I wasn't used to, but wasn't really up to doing anything with it yet.
Gradually, my mind and body seemed to get used to the idea, and I
started feeling normal again--just somewhat more energetic and
ambitious.



--
Aaron -- 285/254/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz
 
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:24:44 -0600, Aaron Baugher
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Nina <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as I'm
>> trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't been
>> able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30 carb/day
>> range. And while the immediate effects of this have been pretty
>> positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel, well,
>> "weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to move in a
>> way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being generally
>> hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it still feels odd).
>> Headachy.

>
>Thirst can be an issue; low-carbers tend to need more water for a couple
>reasons. When the body stores extra sugar as glycogen in places like
>the muscles, it stores water along with it. In the early days of
>low-carb, you tend to burn off a lot of this glycogen, releasing the
>water that was with it, so you don't have that large reserve of water
>anymore. The body also uses water to flush out the ketones that are
>produced when you burn fat. To put it simply, when you're low-carbing,
>the body needs more water for all the things it's trying to do.


That makes sense to me. I've always been a big water drinker, but I
now sort of feel like the camel stopping at the oasis to refill every
time I get near the sink...

>I rarely get headaches anymore, but when I do, I can usually attribute
>it to mild dehydration, because it'll come after a day I was out doing
>stuff and not getting my usual fluids. So those two might be tied
>together. Make sure to drink plenty of water. (I get about a gallon a
>day in the form of weak, unsweetened, decaf tea.) Also, making sure you
>get enough potassium and salt will help ensure you retain enough water
>that you won't get dehydrated suddenly.
>
>I think I know what you mean about feeling "weird." I called it
>"restless laziness." It was like I could feel this restless energy that
>I wasn't used to, but wasn't really up to doing anything with it yet.
>Gradually, my mind and body seemed to get used to the idea, and I
>started feeling normal again--just somewhat more energetic and
>ambitious.


That's exactly what I mean, or a lot of it anyway. I can tell that I
have more energy, but yet everything seems like this enormous huge
effort and I can't seem to make myself DO anything.
 
On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:00:09 -0800 (PST), Doug Freyburger
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Nina <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as I'm
>> trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't been
>> able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30 carb/day
>> range. And while the immediate effects of this have been pretty
>> positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel, well,
>> "weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to move in a
>> way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being generally
>> hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it still feels odd).
>> Headachy.

>
>All classic symptoms of early ketonuria for plenty of people. In
>about two weeks the body makes an adjustment and most of it
>goes away. Except the thirst which seems to last a lot longer
>for some folks.
>
>As to feeling stuffed, you're learning that fat and protein is just as
>filling as carb calorie for calorie but the hunger doesn't come back
>nearly as soon. In the long run that's probably the single biggest
>advantage that low carbing has.


Thus far, that's the really compelling thing for me. It's sure a lot
easier to eat appropriately when you're not hungry all the time.
 
On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:53:25 -0000, "Ophelia" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Nina wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:27:21 -0500, Jackie Patti <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Nina and welcome to the group.
>>>
>>>
>>> Nina wrote:
>>>> Before I wrote this, I spent a lot of time reading the FAQ and a ton
>>>> of low-carb sites, and I can't seem to find anything that
>>>> specifically addresses this.
>>>
>>> How refreshing!

>>
>> :)
>>
>>>> I've been doing low-carb for a few days... not quite induction, as
>>>> I'm trying to sneak my husband onto this, long story, so I haven't
>>>> been able to eliminate a few things, but certainly in about the 30
>>>> carb/day range. And while the immediate effects of this have been
>>>> pretty positive... more energy, not hungry, etc.... I also feel,
>>>> well, "weird" would best describe it. Edgy. Like it's hard to
>>>> move in a way. Thirsty. And, mostly, stuffed (which after being
>>>> generally hungry on most eating plans, is a good thing, but it
>>>> still feels odd). Headachy.
>>>>
>>>> Most side effect lists mention things like carb cravings (of which I
>>>> have none) or muscle aches... nothing that seems like this to me. I
>>>> think I'd just kind of like someone to tell me that it's normal to
>>>> feel odd adjusting to a different type of food, and that I'll feel
>>>> more like myself soon!
>>>>
>>>> Nina
>>>
>>> If it's only been a few days you've been feeling funny, I'd guess
>>> it's just your body adjusting.
>>>
>>> Cause hey, it's normal to feel odd adjusting to a different type of
>>> food, and that you'll feel more like yourself soon! ;)

>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>>> Seriously, it is different. Take it easy, don't do too much
>>> exercising until you finish adjusting a bit. See how you feel in
>>> another week or two before deciding if this will work well for you;
>>> it does take time.

>>
>> I think it's partly that I've been eating a pretty low fat diet for
>> the last couple of years (with, I might add, absolutely no weight loss
>> at all), and the higher fat level just makes me feel, well, fat.
>> (Which I am, but I'd like to feel less fat!) It took me quite a while
>> to get used to a far lower level of fat... and like it, really... but
>> now this level of fat is just not what I'm used to.
>>
>> I am really hoping that this will work, though, because I am really
>> tired of being hungry and tired all the time AND not losing weight.
>>

>
>Welcome Nina:) You can't be in a better place for the help you need:)
>
>best
>
>Ophelia


Thanks, Ophelia! :)
 
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:16:47 -0500, Jackie Patti <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Nina wrote:
>
>> I think it's partly that I've been eating a pretty low fat diet for
>> the last couple of years (with, I might add, absolutely no weight loss
>> at all), and the higher fat level just makes me feel, well, fat.
>> (Which I am, but I'd like to feel less fat!) It took me quite a while
>> to get used to a far lower level of fat... and like it, really... but
>> now this level of fat is just not what I'm used to.
>>
>> I am really hoping that this will work, though, because I am really
>> tired of being hungry and tired all the time AND not losing weight.

>
>I had that experience also. I did a very strict low-fat diet for a year.
>
>Since I'm diabetic, this was a disaster. This was a long time ago,
>before I had a bg meter. Hate to think what my bg must've been that year.
>
>I was hungry all the time also. And bloated. And by the end of the
>year, I wound up so fatigued, I could barely get to work and spent all
>the rest of my time in bed. And... I gained weight!
>
>My body just doesn't like low-fat. I've been low-carbing for over a
>decade now and it works very well for me.
>
>That doesn't mean it will be best for you, but it will take a couple
>weeks before your body adjusts and then you can see how you feel.


My husband is a diabetic, too... and has about double the weight to
lose that I do, which is pretty considerable. He lost a fair amount
of weight in the first year we were married... both of us eating low
fat and high carb, pretty much right along the lines of the infamous
food pyramid. For me, the result of this has been no weight loss at
all, and although he initially lost considerable weight, he hasn't
really been able to lose anything consistent since then... and with
*any* deviation in diet he'll bloat and gain a bunch of quick
weight... up down up down. And his blood sugar spins all over the
place.

Which is all pretty frustrating since we have been eating a very high
quality diet... all whole grains and foods, mostly, little processed
stuff of any kind, and proportions pretty much by the book. But we
have been hungry all the time, and so on.

It's quite obvious to me that it's just NOT working, and that's my
primary motivation to give low carb a real shot... he's less enthused,
but as long as he's not hungry, he's pretty much willing to eat what I
put in front of him... so, well, as I said earlier, I'm trying to
sneak him into this, which is easier than one might think. :) I'm
hoping that the results will speak for themselves and that he'll get a
bit more convinced about this.
 
Nina wrote:

> My husband is a diabetic, too... and has about double the weight to
> lose that I do, which is pretty considerable. He lost a fair amount
> of weight in the first year we were married... both of us eating low
> fat and high carb, pretty much right along the lines of the infamous
> food pyramid.


He probably doesn't need to eat like that; diabetics need to limit carb
to some degree to control bg.

Bernstein says 30g carb/day. I tested and found no difference between
30g and 50g myself (these are "net" grams of carb), but got worse
control when I went up. Some folks eat a lot more carb than me though,
we all vary. You might want to give him a copy of this:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm

For him, it's not a matter of weight loss, but of avoiding blindness,
impotence, heart attack, kidney disease, amputation and premature death.

Just call me the newsgroup party-pooper. ;)


> For me, the result of this has been no weight loss at
> all, and although he initially lost considerable weight, he hasn't
> really been able to lose anything consistent since then... and with
> *any* deviation in diet he'll bloat and gain a bunch of quick
> weight... up down up down. And his blood sugar spins all over the
> place.


Yeah, that is very bad for him.


> Which is all pretty frustrating since we have been eating a very high
> quality diet... all whole grains and foods, mostly, little processed
> stuff of any kind, and proportions pretty much by the book. But we
> have been hungry all the time, and so on.


Throw the book out. ;)

I find myself wishing again that I had finished my diet page so I could
refer you to it.

My pyramid has nonstarchy vegetables at the bottom. You will never eat
them as a majority of calories, but they can certainly be the majority
of food. I had a half pound of okra fried in butter with lunch today;
that's a typical "serving" of vegetables for me. I use butter, olive
oil, avocados, avocado oil, ranch salad dressing, oil & vinegar type
dressings, raw cheese - whatever amount of fat I need to make the
veggies attractive. A wide variety and lots of deeply colored items is key.

For a meal, to a big pile of veggies, I add some protein. For me, a
serving is 4 oz fish, meat or poultry or a cup of cottage cheese,
ricotta or Greek yogurt. I don't do low-fat or skim stuff. I buy
products from pasture-raised animals so I know it's *good* fats and then
don't worry about it. For me, this is the *minimum* amount of protein I
need.

I'm not in induction, so one or two meals a day have low-sugar fruit
also; usually berries, melon, a kiwi or half a pomegranate.

If and when you add grains, buckwheat and barley are the best. They
have gobs of phytochemicals shown to be good for both diabetes and heart
disease. If you're gonna eat this stuff, might as well be *good* stuff
rather than potatoes or wheat, which is almost entirely just starch.
Kasha makes a decent replacement for rice and barley works well in soups
and stews.

You *need* protein and fat, there's essential amino acids and essential
fatty acids. You don't need carbs, but vegetables, fruits and some of
the grains have the micronutrients you need.

You flatout *can't* eat too many non-starchy veggies and that should be
the source of most of your carb at the beginning. As you add, don't add
****, but fruit and a bit of the good grains.

This is not Atkins; this is me. You can do Atkins, or any diet, poorly
or well. Just as there's folks who do low-fat by eating Snackwells,
there's people who do low-carb by mostly eating junk.


> It's quite obvious to me that it's just NOT working, and that's my
> primary motivation to give low carb a real shot... he's less enthused,
> but as long as he's not hungry, he's pretty much willing to eat what I
> put in front of him... so, well, as I said earlier, I'm trying to
> sneak him into this, which is easier than one might think. :) I'm
> hoping that the results will speak for themselves and that he'll get a
> bit more convinced about this.


I do a *lot* of that sort of thing myself. Me doing the shopping and
cooking equals my husband eating more good food. I don't argue with him
at all, I just make it easier for him to eat stuff he should instead of
**** and let his innate laziness take over. ;)

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/
 
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:52:42 -0500, Jackie Patti <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Nina wrote:
>
>> My husband is a diabetic, too... and has about double the weight to
>> lose that I do, which is pretty considerable. He lost a fair amount
>> of weight in the first year we were married... both of us eating low
>> fat and high carb, pretty much right along the lines of the infamous
>> food pyramid.

>
>He probably doesn't need to eat like that; diabetics need to limit carb
>to some degree to control bg.
>
>Bernstein says 30g carb/day. I tested and found no difference between
>30g and 50g myself (these are "net" grams of carb), but got worse
>control when I went up. Some folks eat a lot more carb than me though,
>we all vary. You might want to give him a copy of this:
>http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm
>
>For him, it's not a matter of weight loss, but of avoiding blindness,
>impotence, heart attack, kidney disease, amputation and premature death.
>
>Just call me the newsgroup party-pooper. ;)


Oh, but you're not telling me anything I don't know, unfortunately (or
fortunately, I guess). The trouble is trying to get him to take these
things seriously without making him so depressed about the whole thing
that he thinks there's no point in doing anything. There's a very
long story here, but five years ago (before we were married), he was
pretty much trying to slowly kill himself by eating himself to death,
so... well, the weight is the obvious issue, and I suspect he'd been
diabetic for years before he was diagnosed. He still basically
doesn't want to even THINK about it on top of everything else, and so
it's been up to me to try to educate myself about this and work around
his lack of desire to test, etc. I know about all the risks, way too
well. Way way too well, sigh.

>> For me, the result of this has been no weight loss at
>> all, and although he initially lost considerable weight, he hasn't
>> really been able to lose anything consistent since then... and with
>> *any* deviation in diet he'll bloat and gain a bunch of quick
>> weight... up down up down. And his blood sugar spins all over the
>> place.

>
>Yeah, that is very bad for him.
>
>> Which is all pretty frustrating since we have been eating a very high
>> quality diet... all whole grains and foods, mostly, little processed
>> stuff of any kind, and proportions pretty much by the book. But we
>> have been hungry all the time, and so on.

>
>Throw the book out. ;)
>
>I find myself wishing again that I had finished my diet page so I could
>refer you to it.
>
>My pyramid has nonstarchy vegetables at the bottom. You will never eat
>them as a majority of calories, but they can certainly be the majority
>of food. I had a half pound of okra fried in butter with lunch today;
>that's a typical "serving" of vegetables for me. I use butter, olive
>oil, avocados, avocado oil, ranch salad dressing, oil & vinegar type
>dressings, raw cheese - whatever amount of fat I need to make the
>veggies attractive. A wide variety and lots of deeply colored items is key.
>
>For a meal, to a big pile of veggies, I add some protein. For me, a
>serving is 4 oz fish, meat or poultry or a cup of cottage cheese,
>ricotta or Greek yogurt. I don't do low-fat or skim stuff. I buy
>products from pasture-raised animals so I know it's *good* fats and then
>don't worry about it. For me, this is the *minimum* amount of protein I
>need.
>
>I'm not in induction, so one or two meals a day have low-sugar fruit
>also; usually berries, melon, a kiwi or half a pomegranate.


Fruit is the real issue at the moment as far as I'm concerned... he
likes to eat apples and grapefruit and other citrus fruits, and I
don't want to stop him from doing that... better than ice cream, I
think... but lots of carbs nonetheless.

>If and when you add grains, buckwheat and barley are the best. They
>have gobs of phytochemicals shown to be good for both diabetes and heart
>disease. If you're gonna eat this stuff, might as well be *good* stuff
>rather than potatoes or wheat, which is almost entirely just starch.
>Kasha makes a decent replacement for rice and barley works well in soups
>and stews.
>
>You *need* protein and fat, there's essential amino acids and essential
>fatty acids. You don't need carbs, but vegetables, fruits and some of
>the grains have the micronutrients you need.
>
>You flatout *can't* eat too many non-starchy veggies and that should be
>the source of most of your carb at the beginning. As you add, don't add
>****, but fruit and a bit of the good grains.
>
>This is not Atkins; this is me. You can do Atkins, or any diet, poorly
>or well. Just as there's folks who do low-fat by eating Snackwells,
>there's people who do low-carb by mostly eating junk.


Thank you! This is very useful. You really should finish that diet
page.

We are vegetable and whole grain fans anyway... the hard things for me
to give up, really, are whole grain pasta and wild rice, although on
the whole that seems possible to me. And it's not such a huge issue
since I'm not hungry, and so I don't have that need to fill up on the
grains. But I do wonder how much protein is reasonable... I mean, I
love just about anything that counts as protein, but going from eating
very little to what seems to me quite a lot is... I don't know, like
everything else, I guess it's good but weird. Anyway, we've been
eating vats of vegetables for some time, vegetables plus butter and
cheese are just better!

>> It's quite obvious to me that it's just NOT working, and that's my
>> primary motivation to give low carb a real shot... he's less enthused,
>> but as long as he's not hungry, he's pretty much willing to eat what I
>> put in front of him... so, well, as I said earlier, I'm trying to
>> sneak him into this, which is easier than one might think. :) I'm
>> hoping that the results will speak for themselves and that he'll get a
>> bit more convinced about this.

>
>I do a *lot* of that sort of thing myself. Me doing the shopping and
>cooking equals my husband eating more good food. I don't argue with him
>at all, I just make it easier for him to eat stuff he should instead of
>**** and let his innate laziness take over. ;)


Yes, exactly. :)
 
Nina wrote:
> Oh, but you're not telling me anything I don't know, unfortunately (or
> fortunately, I guess). The trouble is trying to get him to take these
> things seriously without making him so depressed about the whole thing
> that he thinks there's no point in doing anything. There's a very
> long story here, but five years ago (before we were married), he was
> pretty much trying to slowly kill himself by eating himself to death,
> so... well, the weight is the obvious issue, and I suspect he'd been
> diabetic for years before he was diagnosed. He still basically
> doesn't want to even THINK about it on top of everything else, and so
> it's been up to me to try to educate myself about this and work around
> his lack of desire to test, etc. I know about all the risks, way too
> well. Way way too well, sigh.


That's a very tough situation.

For me, it takes a lot of work and knowledge to manage my diabetes well;
if my husband had diabetes or heart disease, he'd not take
responsibility like I do.


> Fruit is the real issue at the moment as far as I'm concerned... he
> likes to eat apples and grapefruit and other citrus fruits, and I
> don't want to stop him from doing that... better than ice cream, I
> think... but lots of carbs nonetheless.


Small apples aren't too bad. It depends how he reacts, maybe a half
would be better, some folks do that. Dip it in some almond butter to
make it go further.

Berries are very good, though we're just passing the time of year for
them and the frozen ones just aren't the same. I find I can do a cup of
most berries. Blueberries pack a bit tighter, so a half cup. I like
berries with yogurt myself.

A cup of cubed melon works too - any sort. Not a whole lot of carbs in
that.

In summer, I eat peaches once or twice too just cause I can't live
without peaches forever. But I buy ones on the smaller side and eat
with a pretty low-carb meal.

I've never looked up grapefruit, but I know a tangerine or an orange
isn't too bad carb-wise, I can do one of those if a meal is otherwise
low-carb.

It's a matter of choosing lower-sugar fruits and limiting portions as
needed based on bg.


> Thank you! This is very useful. You really should finish that diet
> page.


It's half done. As is my diabetes page. Unfortunately, I find it
easier to write to people who respond than just to sit down and write. ;)


> We are vegetable and whole grain fans anyway... the hard things for me
> to give up, really, are whole grain pasta and wild rice, although on
> the whole that seems possible to me. And it's not such a huge issue
> since I'm not hungry, and so I don't have that need to fill up on the
> grains.


Wild rice isn't nearly as bad as real rice, but I think kasha is
probably better.

For pasta, I use fried shredded cabbage if the sauce is cream-like (such
as a stroganoff) or fried shredded zucchini under tomato-type sauces.
Most of the flavor is in the sauce and toppings, so anything bland
underneath works.

You might want to check out Dreamfields pasta, some diabetics find it
doesn't spike them; but others find the spike is just delayed and their
bg goes up at 3 or 4 hours. You'd have to test.

You also might want to google either alt.food.diabetic or
alt.support.diabetes; people often post about various low-carb pasta
products and which ones do and don't spike their bg and still taste
decent. I seem to recall reading that someone found an *edible* soy
pasta recently.


> But I do wonder how much protein is reasonable... I mean, I
> love just about anything that counts as protein, but going from eating
> very little to what seems to me quite a lot is... I don't know, like
> everything else, I guess it's good but weird. Anyway, we've been
> eating vats of vegetables for some time, vegetables plus butter and
> cheese are just better!


Protein can be overdone, but not easily. It's a pretty satiating food,
especially with fat.

During induction, I don't even *try* to limit it. I often roast a
turkey if I need to re-do induction. I have eaten *huge* piles of
pepperoni or hard-boiled eggs or whatever. I have *very* bad cravings
if I let the carbs creep up, so figure whatever gets me through
induction to get me back on track is fine. Appetite returns to more
normal levels afterwards anyways so it doesn't become a problem.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/
 
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:27:32 -0500, Jackie Patti <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Nina wrote:
>> Oh, but you're not telling me anything I don't know, unfortunately (or
>> fortunately, I guess). The trouble is trying to get him to take these
>> things seriously without making him so depressed about the whole thing
>> that he thinks there's no point in doing anything. There's a very
>> long story here, but five years ago (before we were married), he was
>> pretty much trying to slowly kill himself by eating himself to death,
>> so... well, the weight is the obvious issue, and I suspect he'd been
>> diabetic for years before he was diagnosed. He still basically
>> doesn't want to even THINK about it on top of everything else, and so
>> it's been up to me to try to educate myself about this and work around
>> his lack of desire to test, etc. I know about all the risks, way too
>> well. Way way too well, sigh.

>
>That's a very tough situation.
>
>For me, it takes a lot of work and knowledge to manage my diabetes well;
>if my husband had diabetes or heart disease, he'd not take
>responsibility like I do.


Yeah. And it's *hard* to take care of someone who isn't wholly
committed to taking care of himself. I think that if he could just
lose enough weight to have less pain and more mobility, he'd be more
able to cope with the psychological demands of dealing with diabetes
and everything else. As it is, it's just kind of one more thing that
he can't quite deal with... so for the moment, I'm dealing with it,
basically. Which is ok.

>> Fruit is the real issue at the moment as far as I'm concerned... he
>> likes to eat apples and grapefruit and other citrus fruits, and I
>> don't want to stop him from doing that... better than ice cream, I
>> think... but lots of carbs nonetheless.

>
>Small apples aren't too bad. It depends how he reacts, maybe a half
>would be better, some folks do that. Dip it in some almond butter to
>make it go further.
>
>Berries are very good, though we're just passing the time of year for
>them and the frozen ones just aren't the same. I find I can do a cup of
>most berries. Blueberries pack a bit tighter, so a half cup. I like
>berries with yogurt myself.
>
>A cup of cubed melon works too - any sort. Not a whole lot of carbs in
>that.


I just got back from the store and remembered.. .that's what I meant
to get! Melon... Damn.

>In summer, I eat peaches once or twice too just cause I can't live
>without peaches forever. But I buy ones on the smaller side and eat
>with a pretty low-carb meal.
>
>I've never looked up grapefruit, but I know a tangerine or an orange
>isn't too bad carb-wise, I can do one of those if a meal is otherwise
>low-carb.
>
>It's a matter of choosing lower-sugar fruits and limiting portions as
>needed based on bg.


The good thing is that,as far as I can tell (since I'm basing this far
more on observation than on testing, and, yes, I know that's a
terrible idea, but I'm working at it...), his blood sugar really is
not that sensitive to what I'd call high-fiber, whole food carbs,
unless he eats a LOT of them. It's things like white rice and regular
pasta (or whole wheat pasta in much quantity). Apples and (weirdly)
potatoes and anything that's pretty whole grain is at least reasonably
ok... but then, I think the issue is largely that he more carbs he
eats, the hungrier he is, on the whole (although I've just started
really paying attention to this pattern. It's certainly true for
me.).

>> Thank you! This is very useful. You really should finish that diet
>> page.

>
>It's half done. As is my diabetes page. Unfortunately, I find it
>easier to write to people who respond than just to sit down and write. ;)


Yes, I understand perfectly! :)

>> We are vegetable and whole grain fans anyway... the hard things for me
>> to give up, really, are whole grain pasta and wild rice, although on
>> the whole that seems possible to me. And it's not such a huge issue
>> since I'm not hungry, and so I don't have that need to fill up on the
>> grains.

>
>Wild rice isn't nearly as bad as real rice, but I think kasha is
>probably better.
>
>For pasta, I use fried shredded cabbage if the sauce is cream-like (such
>as a stroganoff) or fried shredded zucchini under tomato-type sauces.
>Most of the flavor is in the sauce and toppings, so anything bland
>underneath works.


Shredded cabbage is a great idea; I hadn't thought of that.

>You might want to check out Dreamfields pasta, some diabetics find it
>doesn't spike them; but others find the spike is just delayed and their
>bg goes up at 3 or 4 hours. You'd have to test.
>
>You also might want to google either alt.food.diabetic or
>alt.support.diabetes; people often post about various low-carb pasta
>products and which ones do and don't spike their bg and still taste
>decent. I seem to recall reading that someone found an *edible* soy
>pasta recently.


I bought a box of Dreamfields, so we'll see... I suspect that, like a
lot of things, it's probably better to try to pretty much avoid the
pasta than to find a great substitute.

>> But I do wonder how much protein is reasonable... I mean, I
>> love just about anything that counts as protein, but going from eating
>> very little to what seems to me quite a lot is... I don't know, like
>> everything else, I guess it's good but weird. Anyway, we've been
>> eating vats of vegetables for some time, vegetables plus butter and
>> cheese are just better!

>
>Protein can be overdone, but not easily. It's a pretty satiating food,
>especially with fat.
>
>During induction, I don't even *try* to limit it. I often roast a
>turkey if I need to re-do induction. I have eaten *huge* piles of
>pepperoni or hard-boiled eggs or whatever. I have *very* bad cravings
>if I let the carbs creep up, so figure whatever gets me through
>induction to get me back on track is fine. Appetite returns to more
>normal levels afterwards anyways so it doesn't become a problem.


I have to say that I find this absence of carb cravings absolutely
bizarre. I'm quite sure that this is the only time in my life that I
haven't had them. That's got to be a good thing.
 
Nina wrote:

> Apples and (weirdly)
> potatoes and anything that's pretty whole grain is at least reasonably
> ok... but then, I think the issue is largely that he more carbs he
> eats, the hungrier he is, on the whole (although I've just started
> really paying attention to this pattern. It's certainly true for
> me.).


For me, when my bg is uncontrolled, the hunger is actually *painful*,
enough to even wake me from a dead sleep.

Whereas when my bg is controlled, hunger is just a minor feeling that it
is easy to ignore if I'm distracted.


> I have to say that I find this absence of carb cravings absolutely
> bizarre. I'm quite sure that this is the only time in my life that I
> haven't had them. That's got to be a good thing.


Yeah, you are lucky! The cravings are really intense for me if I screw
up and need to re-induct..

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/
 
Nina <[email protected]> writes:

>>> Oh, but you're not telling me anything I don't know, unfortunately
>>> (or fortunately, I guess). The trouble is trying to get him to take
>>> these things seriously without making him so depressed about the
>>> whole thing that he thinks there's no point in doing anything.


I'm convinced there's often a vicious cycle between carb consumption and
depression. High blood sugar increases the production of "contentment"
brain chemicals--there's a reason a person who just got dumped eats a
box of chocolates, and not a pile of pork chops. So, a person hits a
tough patch in life, seeks refuge in comfort foods, gains weight, gets
more depressed about that, needs more comfort foods to offset that, etc,
etc. I think that's one reason low-carb diets work so much better than
high-carb diets (and also the reason you can't do it halfway and get
half the benefits): cutting out the carbs breaks that cycle. It's not
easy, especially in the first few days when your body is going through
withdrawals, it gets so much easier.

> Yeah. And it's *hard* to take care of someone who isn't wholly
> committed to taking care of himself. I think that if he could just
> lose enough weight to have less pain and more mobility, he'd be more
> able to cope with the psychological demands of dealing with diabetes
> and everything else. As it is, it's just kind of one more thing that
> he can't quite deal with... so for the moment, I'm dealing with it,
> basically. Which is ok.


It's definitely easier to do it with someone who's on the same page.
Hopefully, if you can deal with the details long enough for him to see
improvements, he'll get excited about it and get on board more actively.

>>> Fruit is the real issue at the moment as far as I'm concerned... he
>>> likes to eat apples and grapefruit and other citrus fruits, and I
>>> don't want to stop him from doing that... better than ice cream, I
>>> think... but lots of carbs nonetheless.


Yeah, that could be better. Like Jackie said, if he likes berries or
melon, maybe you can wean him over to them at least part of the time.
Personally, I think the low-carb fruits are a lot tastier than the
high-carb ones, but tastes vary.

Has he ever tested his blood sugar? When you eat something and see your
BG shoot up an hour or two later, or still be high a few hours later,
that can be an eye-opener that's hard to avoid.

> I bought a box of Dreamfields, so we'll see... I suspect that, like a
> lot of things, it's probably better to try to pretty much avoid the
> pasta than to find a great substitute.


There are also tofu shirataki noodles, available in some stores'
specialty or ethnic sections. They come packed in a bag of liquid, and
are extremely low-carb, but they're also kinda rubbery. I like them
okay, but the texture is a little different. Spaghetti squash is the
same way: low in carbs and tastes good, but you'll never mistake it for
a starch pasta.

>>> But I do wonder how much protein is reasonable... I mean, I love
>>> just about anything that counts as protein, but going from eating
>>> very little to what seems to me quite a lot is... I don't know, like
>>> everything else, I guess it's good but weird. Anyway, we've been
>>> eating vats of vegetables for some time, vegetables plus butter and
>>> cheese are just better!


You might want to grab a copy of "Protein Power Life Plan," or the
earlier "Protein Power." They'll show you how much protein you need,
and what serving sizes of protein-rich foods like meat and eggs will
give you that. Extra protein isn't a problem, unless you drastically
overdo it, enough that the excess protein being converted to glucose
drives your blood sugar up. You'll probably know if you're eating that
much.

> I have to say that I find this absence of carb cravings absolutely
> bizarre. I'm quite sure that this is the only time in my life that I
> haven't had them. That's got to be a good thing.


Nice, huh?



--
Aaron -- 285/254/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz
 
Jackie Patti <[email protected]> writes:

> It's half done. As is my diabetes page. Unfortunately, I find it
> easier to write to people who respond than just to sit down and write.
> ;)


Funny how that works, isn't it? I hate to think how many words I've
written here and other places as responses, but when I sit in front of a
blank page or web site, my mind just locks up. Writing an actual book
seems like an impossible task. Just a lack of discipline on my part, I
suppose.

> You also might want to google either alt.food.diabetic or
> alt.support.diabetes; people often post about various low-carb pasta
> products and which ones do and don't spike their bg and still taste
> decent. I seem to recall reading that someone found an *edible* soy
> pasta recently.


We got some from Netrition, but I don't know the brand offhand. It
tasted fine, but then we noticed it came from China. Good grief,
millions of bushels of soybeans are grown and processed right here in my
neighborhood. Some of them probably got shipped to China, pressed into
pasta and packaged, and shipped back. Apparently fuel prices still
aren't high enough.



--
Aaron -- 285/254/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz
 
On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 10:04:01 -0600, Aaron Baugher
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Nina <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>>> Oh, but you're not telling me anything I don't know, unfortunately
>>>> (or fortunately, I guess). The trouble is trying to get him to take
>>>> these things seriously without making him so depressed about the
>>>> whole thing that he thinks there's no point in doing anything.

>
>I'm convinced there's often a vicious cycle between carb consumption and
>depression. High blood sugar increases the production of "contentment"
>brain chemicals--there's a reason a person who just got dumped eats a
>box of chocolates, and not a pile of pork chops. So, a person hits a
>tough patch in life, seeks refuge in comfort foods, gains weight, gets
>more depressed about that, needs more comfort foods to offset that, etc,
>etc. I think that's one reason low-carb diets work so much better than
>high-carb diets (and also the reason you can't do it halfway and get
>half the benefits): cutting out the carbs breaks that cycle. It's not
>easy, especially in the first few days when your body is going through
>withdrawals, it gets so much easier.


I completely agree about all of this. And I'm pretty convinced that
the blood sugar spikes from carbs are a whole huge part of both his
and my mood swings.

>> Yeah. And it's *hard* to take care of someone who isn't wholly
>> committed to taking care of himself. I think that if he could just
>> lose enough weight to have less pain and more mobility, he'd be more
>> able to cope with the psychological demands of dealing with diabetes
>> and everything else. As it is, it's just kind of one more thing that
>> he can't quite deal with... so for the moment, I'm dealing with it,
>> basically. Which is ok.

>
>It's definitely easier to do it with someone who's on the same page.
>Hopefully, if you can deal with the details long enough for him to see
>improvements, he'll get excited about it and get on board more actively.


I hope so. I think that at the moment, he's just kind of ****** off
about the whole thing.... despite the fact that he is both not hungry
and losing weight, and I'm not exactly taking every carb out of his
hands, either. I am hoping that once the benefits seem more clear...
and when/if he starts to understand that this is not an unhealthy
choice, he'll be a lot more into it. But I see why this is hard for
him... I mean, you spend your entire life being told that butter is
bad, meat is bad, fats are bad, etc., and then the next day, someone's
feeding you these things. It takes a little adjustment.

>>>> Fruit is the real issue at the moment as far as I'm concerned... he
>>>> likes to eat apples and grapefruit and other citrus fruits, and I
>>>> don't want to stop him from doing that... better than ice cream, I
>>>> think... but lots of carbs nonetheless.

>
>Yeah, that could be better. Like Jackie said, if he likes berries or
>melon, maybe you can wean him over to them at least part of the time.
>Personally, I think the low-carb fruits are a lot tastier than the
>high-carb ones, but tastes vary.


Me too... but the thing about apples, etc., is that they're what I'd
call "grab fruits"... there they are in a bowl, you just have one.
You don't have to take out the seeds, cube the melon, whatever. So
it's just easier. But, on the other hand, if he's less hungry he eats
less of all of these sorts of things.

>Has he ever tested his blood sugar? When you eat something and see your
>BG shoot up an hour or two later, or still be high a few hours later,
>that can be an eye-opener that's hard to avoid.


He's had his blood sugar tested, of course, and we have a monitor, but
I haven't been able to get him to use it really.

>> I bought a box of Dreamfields, so we'll see... I suspect that, like a
>> lot of things, it's probably better to try to pretty much avoid the
>> pasta than to find a great substitute.

>
>There are also tofu shirataki noodles, available in some stores'
>specialty or ethnic sections. They come packed in a bag of liquid, and
>are extremely low-carb, but they're also kinda rubbery. I like them
>okay, but the texture is a little different. Spaghetti squash is the
>same way: low in carbs and tastes good, but you'll never mistake it for
>a starch pasta.


I love spaghetti squash... I'd forgotten all about that!

>>>> But I do wonder how much protein is reasonable... I mean, I love
>>>> just about anything that counts as protein, but going from eating
>>>> very little to what seems to me quite a lot is... I don't know, like
>>>> everything else, I guess it's good but weird. Anyway, we've been
>>>> eating vats of vegetables for some time, vegetables plus butter and
>>>> cheese are just better!

>
>You might want to grab a copy of "Protein Power Life Plan," or the
>earlier "Protein Power." They'll show you how much protein you need,
>and what serving sizes of protein-rich foods like meat and eggs will
>give you that. Extra protein isn't a problem, unless you drastically
>overdo it, enough that the excess protein being converted to glucose
>drives your blood sugar up. You'll probably know if you're eating that
>much.
>
>> I have to say that I find this absence of carb cravings absolutely
>> bizarre. I'm quite sure that this is the only time in my life that I
>> haven't had them. That's got to be a good thing.

>
>Nice, huh?


VERY. I have to say that this is ridiculously easy for me at the
moment. It's sort of like all of a lifetime of food issues have
vanished in 6 days. A little unreal, actually.