Cars & China--God Help Us



Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
> Kirby Krieger wrote:
> >
> > This was my first actual laugh-out-loud post-reading since Dull-bright
> > posted "He needs that like he needs another hole in his head".


> This is kind of amusing, too:
> http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_06/004103.php


When you give your Nobel Prize lecture and write a memoir,
I'd like a patronizing, offhand, Watson-to-Rosalind-Franklin-esque
mention.

Thanks,
Ben
 
"Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 07 Jun 2004 20:30:56 EDT, Richard Adams <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Sorry. Many of us here in the USA have watched millions in Tobacco Suit
> >money (money tobacco companies had to pay for liability of their
> >product) squandered, so we're used to it. Money which could be used to
> >promote healty exercise with rail-trails, etc. seems to go down some
> >rabbit hole or be given back in tax cuts.*

>
> What suit did the federal government win and get tobacco money? The
> state's got the money and most of them needed it to plug lost revenue.
> I would guess that when the tobacco money wasn't spent for related
> programs, it was used to keep state tax rates from going higher.
>

One problem was that the purpose of the money was to reimburse for
medical expenses incurred by smokers (a dubious situation) and to pay for
smoking cessation/prevention. The latter barely occurred.

There is evidence that since smokers die younger, they actually save money
in terms of the health care. Regardless of when we die, the vast majority
of health care money is spent in the last couple of years of life. For
smokers, those last years come sooner (on the whole).


It was a shake down, pure and simple. Jesse Jackson was quite envious.



> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...
 
"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Pistof wrote:
> > Mostly, though, governments need to learn to be more
> > efficient and spend their "income" more wisely.

>
> In most of the developed countries the government is the major payer for
> health care.
> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/pct-gdp.gif
>
>


Yet, the US has the best health care in the world. When a Saudi needs a
heart operation he comes to the Cleveland Clinic.

Also, how do these governments get the money to pay for health care?
Answer: really high taxes.

The US Constitution says nothing about providing cradle to grave care.
 
Benjamin Weiner wrote:
> Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Kirby Krieger wrote:
>>>
>>> This was my first actual laugh-out-loud post-reading since Dull-bright
>>> posted "He needs that like he needs another hole in his head".

>
>> This is kind of amusing, too:
>> http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_06/004103.php

>
> When you give your Nobel Prize lecture and write a memoir,
> I'd like a patronizing, offhand, Watson-to-Rosalind-Franklin-esque
> mention.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben


You're saying they're thinking about instituting a Nobel for rbr in-jokes
about fat masters racers and Shiner Bock belly?
 
Sam wrote:
> "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/pct-gdp.gif

>
> Yet, the US has the best health care in the world. When a Saudi needs a
> heart operation he comes to the Cleveland Clinic.


What makes you think the US has the best health care in the world?

Saudis coming to the US for heart operations is a straw man argument.
Compared to the US, Saudi Arabia has a lower expectation of life, higher
infant and child mortality, fewer hospital beds per 100,000 inhabitants,
fewer trained cardiac surgeons, and *much* lower expenditures on health
care. We should be comparing our health care system to Western Europe, or
to Japan, or to similar developed countries, not to Saudi Arabia. That we
have a better health care system than Saudi Arabia is roughly as relevant
to the argument that we have the "best health care in the world" as saying
that we have a better health care system than Bukina Faso. Big whoop.

The data on international comparisons of health care show that *among
developed countries* the US is about in the middle on almost every measure
except for cost. We're way off to the side on cost. Under our current
system, we're basically flushing about 4 percent of GDP down the toilet
for no particular benefit in health care quality.
 
Sam wrote:
> "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Pistof wrote:
>>
>>>Mostly, though, governments need to learn to be more
>>>efficient and spend their "income" more wisely.

>>
>>In most of the developed countries the government is the major payer for
>>health care.
>>http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/pct-gdp.gif
>>
>>

>
>
> Yet, the US has the best health care in the world. When a Saudi needs a
> heart operation he comes to the Cleveland Clinic.
>
> Also, how do these governments get the money to pay for health care?
> Answer: really high taxes.
>
> The US Constitution says nothing about providing cradle to grave care.



Perhaps you're not familiar with the 'General Welfare' clause which has
been used for a great many things. From Article 1:

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes,
duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common
defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties,
imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
 
"Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sam wrote:
> > "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Pistof wrote:
> >>
> >>>Mostly, though, governments need to learn to be more
> >>>efficient and spend their "income" more wisely.
> >>
> >>In most of the developed countries the government is the major payer for
> >>health care.
> >>http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/pct-gdp.gif
> >>
> >>

> >
> >
> > Yet, the US has the best health care in the world. When a Saudi needs a
> > heart operation he comes to the Cleveland Clinic.
> >
> > Also, how do these governments get the money to pay for health care?
> > Answer: really high taxes.


I thought several OPEC countries provide cradle to grave healthcare, housing
and education for their citizens from the oil revenue they receive (a lot of
it from us).

jb
 
Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
> Benjamin Weiner wrote:


> > When you give your Nobel Prize lecture and write a memoir,
> > I'd like a patronizing, offhand, Watson-to-Rosalind-Franklin-esque
> > mention.


> You're saying they're thinking about instituting a Nobel for rbr in-jokes
> about fat masters racers and Shiner Bock belly?


There isn't one already???

****, now I'll have to get a PhD in Physics instead!

Ben

P.S. I'm fairly sure the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics can be
given for in-jokes about correlations between fattie masters
and Shiner Bock, but you'll have to be at Chicago to get it.
 
>From: Steven Bornfeld [email protected]

>Hey--I can fight and ***** at the same time, can't you?
>
>Steve


Hi Steve
Yeah I can and do. This is one of my handfull of pet peeves. If you can't be
bothered to at least vote then shut the hell up is pretty much my attitude. On
things that aren't subject to voting, in today's world it's real easy to write
an e-mail.
Unfortunately it seems to me that about 85% of the people ***** and about 35%
vote.
At this spring's officials clinic and Nebra meeting, this is the meeting to
set the agenda for New England racing for the year and air any concerns going
into the season, there were maybe 10 clubs represented by 20 people total. Wade
Summers might have a better count as he and Laura are Nebra board members and
represented 2 clubs at the meeting.
The point is there is a real shortage of people who will put time and effort
where their talk is.
Bill C
 
TritonRider wrote:


> Unfortunately it seems to me that about 85% of the people ***** and about 35%
> vote.


The older saw is that 50% of Americans understand the issues and 50%
vote. It would be nice if it was the same 50%.
 
"Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sam wrote:
> > "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Pistof wrote:
> >>
> >>>Mostly, though, governments need to learn to be more
> >>>efficient and spend their "income" more wisely.
> >>
> >>In most of the developed countries the government is the major payer for
> >>health care.
> >>http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/pct-gdp.gif
> >>
> >>

> >
> >
> > Yet, the US has the best health care in the world. When a Saudi needs a
> > heart operation he comes to the Cleveland Clinic.
> >
> > Also, how do these governments get the money to pay for health care?
> > Answer: really high taxes.
> >
> > The US Constitution says nothing about providing cradle to grave care.

>
>
> Perhaps you're not familiar with the 'General Welfare' clause which has
> been used for a great many things. From Article 1:
>
> Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes,
> duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common
> defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties,
> imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
>


Yes. I doubt the Founding Fathers intended that to mean government paying
for housing, medical care and retirement for all its citizens (and
non-citizens). Only someone with a socialistic view on life would view
"general welfare" to mean those things.
 
Stewart Fleming wrote:
>
> TritonRider wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately it seems to me that about 85% of the people ***** and about 35%
> > vote.

>
> The older saw is that 50% of Americans understand the issues and 50%
> vote. It would be nice if it was the same 50%.


"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American
public." -- Ray Zalinsky (Dan Ackroyd in _Tommy Boy_)


It is even worse in NZ.
 
Robert Chung wrote:
>


> We're way off to the side on cost. Under our current
> system, we're basically flushing about 4 percent of GDP down the toilet
> for no particular benefit in health care quality.


Care to wave the chalk at why? I'm always interested.
 
gwhite wrote:

>
> Stewart Fleming wrote:
>
>>TritonRider wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Unfortunately it seems to me that about 85% of the people ***** and about 35%
>>>vote.

>>
>>The older saw is that 50% of Americans understand the issues and 50%
>>vote. It would be nice if it was the same 50%.

>
>
> "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American
> public." -- Ray Zalinsky (Dan Ackroyd in _Tommy Boy_)
>
>
> It is even worse in NZ.


Voting percentage or awareness of issues?

http://www.elections.org.nz
Voting enrollment: 93% of census population
Voting (2002): 2031617/2891790 (70% turnout)
You can download breakdowns for every electorate, but Robert, I don't
want to see any of this data showing up on free.fr any time soon, OK.
 
Richard Adams wrote:
>
> Sam wrote:


> > The US Constitution says nothing about providing cradle to grave care.

>
> Perhaps you're not familiar with the 'General Welfare' clause which has
> been used for a great many things. From Article 1:
>
> Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes,
> duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common
> defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties,
> imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


It is not in the general welfare of the United States, really its citizens, to make it a socialist
state.

Maybe you are unfamiliar with this:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice,
insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure
the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution
for the United States of America."

Socialism is fundamentally anti-liberty (anti-freedom). It is so by _design_. Socialism destroys
rather than secures the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.


Hayek, _TRTS_, p28

2
The Great Utopia

What has always made the state a hell on earth has
been precisely that man has tried to make it his heaven.
—F. HÖLDERLIN




THAT socialism has displaced liberalism as the doc-
trine held by the great majority of progressives
does not simply mean that people had forgotten
the warnings of the great liberal thinkers of the past about
the consequences of collectivism. It has happened because
they were persuaded of the very opposite of what these men
had predicted. The extraordinary thing is that the same so-
cialism that was not only early recognized as the gravest
threat to freedom, but quite openly began as a reaction
against the liberalism of the French Revolution, gained gen-
eral acceptance under the flag of liberty. It is rarely remem-
bered now that socialism in its beginnings was frankly au-
thoritarian. The French writers who laid the foundations of
modern socialism had no doubt that their ideas could be put
into practice only by strong dictatorial government. To them
socialism meant an attempt to “terminate the revolution” by
a deliberate reorganization of society on hierarchical lines
and by the imposition of a coercive “spiritual power.” Where
freedom was concerned, the founders of socialism made no
bones about their intentions. Freedom of thought they re-
garded as the root-evil of nineteenth-century society, and
the first of modern planners, Saint-Simon, even predicted
that those who did not obey his proposed planning boards
would be “treated as cattle.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Friedman, _CAF_,pp2-3

Introduction


IN A MUCH QUOTED PASSAGE in his inaugural address, President
Kennedy said, “Ask not what your country can do for you — ask
what you can do for your country.” It is a striking sign of the
temper of our times that the controversy about this passage cen-
tered on its origin and not on its content. Neither half of the
statement expresses a relation between the citizen and his gov-
ernment that is worthy of the ideals of free men in a free society.
The paternalistic “what your country can do for you” implies
that government is the patron, the citizen the ward, a view
that is at odds with the free man’s belief in his own responsibility
for his own destiny. The organismic, “what you can do for your
country” implies that government is the master or the deity, the
citizen, the servant or the votary. To the free man, the country
is the collection of individuals who compose it, not something
over and above them. He is proud of a common heritage and
loyal to common traditions. But he regards government as a
means, an instrumentality, neither a grantor of favors and gifts,
nor a master or god to be blindly worshipped and served. He
recognizes no national goal except as it is the consensus of the
goals that the citizens severally serve. He recognizes no national
purpose except as it is the consensus of the purposes for which
the citizens severally strive.
The free man will ask neither what his country can do for
him nor what he can do for his country. He will ask rather
“What can I and my compatriots do through government” to
help us discharge our individual responsibilities, to achieve our
several goals and purposes, and above all, to protect our free
dom? And he will accompany this question with another: How
can we keep the government we create from becoming a Frank
enstein that will destroy the very freedom we establish it to pro
tect? Freedom is a rare and delicate plant. Our minds tell us,
and history confirms, that the great threat to freedom is the
concentration of power. Government is necessary to preserve our
freedom, it is an instrument through which we can exercise
our freedom; yet by concentrating power in political hands, it is
also a threat to freedom. Even though the men who wield this
power initially be of good will and even though they be not
corrupted by the power they exercise, the power will both attract
and form men of a different stamp.

Much of the rest is about the Frankenstein question. Don't do it to yourself. Don't do it to your
family. Don't do it to your friends. It isn't friendly to be a socialist.
 
Stewart Fleming wrote:
> You can download breakdowns for every electorate, but Robert, I don't
> want to see any of this data showing up on free.fr any time soon, OK.


Is that one of them cowardly French websites?