Cheap chains from WallyWorld - Update

[Ilja Friedel]

[email protected] wrote:
> The hard drive companies have separate production lines
> devoted to turning out higher-failure rate models that look
> just like the better ones, except for "a dash at the end"?

It is called "binning". Parts from the same production line are sorted by
quality and sold at different price points. This increases profit margins
and is standard procedure in the IT industry. Don't know if bicycle
manufacturers do this.

Ilja.

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 4 May 2006 01:46:02 +0000 (UTC), Ilja Friedel
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> The hard drive companies have separate production lines
>> devoted to turning out higher-failure rate models that look
>> just like the better ones, except for "a dash at the end"?
>
>It is called "binning". Parts from the same production line are sorted by
>quality and sold at different price points. This increases profit margins
>and is standard procedure in the IT industry. Don't know if bicycle
>manufacturers do this.
>
>Ilja.

Dear Ilja,

Any actual examples of such hard drives?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 03 May 2006 20:13:50 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

>On Thu, 4 May 2006 01:46:02 +0000 (UTC), Ilja Friedel
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>> The hard drive companies have separate production lines
>>> devoted to turning out higher-failure rate models that look
>>> just like the better ones, except for "a dash at the end"?
>>
>>It is called "binning". Parts from the same production line are sorted by
>>quality and sold at different price points. This increases profit margins
>>and is standard procedure in the IT industry. Don't know if bicycle
>>manufacturers do this.
>>
>>Ilja.
>
>Dear Ilja,
>
>Any actual examples of such hard drives?

I knew a local tech who used to have a pile of Conners that were like
that. Conner was Compaq's more-or-less house brand. The ones they
installed in their desktop PCs had passed the full suite of QC tests;
the ones sold in bulk to local discount houses were a different
matter. It wasn't uncommon to have to swap the drive once or twice
before getting one that worked correctly.

Seagate will happily supply premium fully-tested drives at a small
additional cost over "as they run" drives. The rejects from that
process are not destroyed as long as they are at least minimally
functional.

Some brands of PC have been notorious for the use of substandard parts
in their construction. Before they were bought out by Gateway,
e-Machines was firmly in this category. The ECS motherboards they
used were even worse than the ones sold at Fry's.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 04 May 2006 02:32:30 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 03 May 2006 20:13:50 -0600, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 4 May 2006 01:46:02 +0000 (UTC), Ilja Friedel
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>> The hard drive companies have separate production lines
>>>> devoted to turning out higher-failure rate models that look
>>>> just like the better ones, except for "a dash at the end"?
>>>
>>>It is called "binning". Parts from the same production line are sorted by
>>>quality and sold at different price points. This increases profit margins
>>>and is standard procedure in the IT industry. Don't know if bicycle
>>>manufacturers do this.
>>>
>>>Ilja.
>>
>>Dear Ilja,
>>
>>Any actual examples of such hard drives?
>
>I knew a local tech who used to have a pile of Conners that were like
>that. Conner was Compaq's more-or-less house brand. The ones they
>installed in their desktop PCs had passed the full suite of QC tests;
>the ones sold in bulk to local discount houses were a different
>matter. It wasn't uncommon to have to swap the drive once or twice
>before getting one that worked correctly.
>
>Seagate will happily supply premium fully-tested drives at a small
>additional cost over "as they run" drives. The rejects from that
>process are not destroyed as long as they are at least minimally
>functional.
>
>Some brands of PC have been notorious for the use of substandard parts
>in their construction. Before they were bought out by Gateway,
>e-Machines was firmly in this category. The ECS motherboards they
>used were even worse than the ones sold at Fry's.

Dear Werehatrack,

Interesting.

What I'm after is an actual current example of the same
drive with the different markings, the cheap and unreliable
one available at WalMart (or wherever), the other more
expensive and reliable one available somewhere else.

Or a link to a drive company with different MTBF ratings for
the same drive.

Curiously,

Carl Fogel

 

[Robert]

Werehatrack wrote:
> On 3 May 2006 10:03:22 -0700, "landotter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >Werehatrack wrote:
> >> Previously, a couple of posters had noted that the chains shipping
> >> under the Bell brand to the Wal-Mart stores in their area were
> >> actually KMC. Yesterday, at one of the local Wal-Marts here in
> >> Houston, I made a point of looking at the 3/32" chains in stock. They
> >> were still in Bell packaging, but the chain was from Taya, which is
> >> not in the same league as KMC.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Single speed chains from Wally are still KMC and still $6. The
> >multispeed chains have been Taya for a while, and I have no idea if
> >they're **** or not.
>
> Singlespeeds in stock at the local Wally had no brand marking visible
> when I checked; they looked like they weren't KMC, and they weren't
> admitting who made them either.
>
> Most of the comments I've heard about Taya chains have been less than
> complimentary.
> --
> Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
> Some gardening required to reply via email.
> Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Bought 2 of the single speed chains at Wally World last week and they
were both KMC.
I have noticed that the derailleur chain has changed to a different
brand/ design from previous, but the single speed are the same. This is
in San Antonio, Texas at a store where there is a pretty quick turn
over in stock so I doubt that this is just old stock KMC stuff. YMMV

 

[Richard B]

Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:



>
> Remove the chain from the chain wheels so that it is
> slack. Form a 'U' shape at the master link. Grip the
> plates and slide them apart.
>

Sram Quicklinks have a grooves cut into the posts and a sholder formed
into the keyways on the sideplates. You squeeze the sideplates together
to align the post grooves and the sideplate shoulders so the plates can
slide to the release position. Take a Sram Quicklink apart sometime and
examine it carefully, you see how the lock is designed and then taking
it apart becomes quite easy. I release the link and remove the chain
from the bike whenever I clean the chain (which is often; a clean chain
is a happy chain), I only use my fingers to release the link, it
takes me maybe two seconds.

Rich

 

[Ilja Friedel]

[email protected] wrote:

> Any actual examples of such hard drives?

I do not have experience with hard drives. I can give you examples of
chips that are binned. Intel, AMD, ATI, NVIDIA all do this. Mostly the
sorting is for performance, less stability. Nevertheless, chips that are
only partially broken but are inherently parallel (RAM, or chips having
many independent units) can be sold as less performant chips if the faulty
unit is deactivated.

Ilja.

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 4 May 2006 05:54:14 +0000 (UTC), Ilja Friedel
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> Any actual examples of such hard drives?
>
>I do not have experience with hard drives. I can give you examples of
>chips that are binned. Intel, AMD, ATI, NVIDIA all do this. Mostly the
>sorting is for performance, less stability. Nevertheless, chips that are
>only partially broken but are inherently parallel (RAM, or chips having
>many independent units) can be sold as less performant chips if the faulty
>unit is deactivated.
>
>Ilja.

Dear Ilja,

Yes, I'm familiar with chip sales practices that are
something like what you mention.

Hal Hardenburgh (sp?) went through the details some years
ago in Dr. Dobbs, explaining how the memory chips of that
era were produced and then sample-tested for their
nanosecond rating--100, 80, or 70--and finally stamped for
sale.

I'm still wondering about the hard drives, since my
understanding is that they tend to either work or fail
rather than show significant speed variations.

Thanks for explaining things--I don't think that I put my
questions anywhere near as nicely as I should have.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[landotter]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "landotter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > jack sprat wrote:
> > > > ... and I have no idea if they're **** or not.
> > >
> > > I tried one of these on my fixed gear commuter ... lasted about 2 weeks or
> > > ~300 miles. SRAM pc-48's last about 2000 miles.
> >
> > I just measured my single speed's $6 KMC "Z" chain. No measurable wear
> > and most likely 2K or more. The Srams chains certainly are a bit
> > quieter, that's the only superiority in my experience. I actually like
> > the KMC's old fashioned master link better, the Sram quicklink makes my
> > fingers bleed.
>
> It can be very easy. First practice on a new chain or a
> very clean chain. Install and remove the link repeatedly
> until your fingers know how.
>
> On an installed chain first flush the master link with
> solvent until all the grit is washed out. The main
> impediment to removal is grit between the mating surfaces
> resisting your efforts; the grit always wins. Then add a
> bit of oil for overkill.
>
> Remove the chain from the chain wheels so that it is
> slack. Form a 'U' shape at the master link. Grip the
> plates and slide them apart.
>
> --

Sounds quite easy compared to the Herculean task it was last time I
tried. Now, can you send me a p58 to practice on? : -P

 

[RonSonic]

On Wed, 03 May 2006 20:50:50 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

>On Thu, 04 May 2006 02:32:30 GMT, Werehatrack
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 03 May 2006 20:13:50 -0600, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 4 May 2006 01:46:02 +0000 (UTC), Ilja Friedel
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>>> The hard drive companies have separate production lines
>>>>> devoted to turning out higher-failure rate models that look
>>>>> just like the better ones, except for "a dash at the end"?
>>>>
>>>>It is called "binning". Parts from the same production line are sorted by
>>>>quality and sold at different price points. This increases profit margins
>>>>and is standard procedure in the IT industry. Don't know if bicycle
>>>>manufacturers do this.
>>>>
>>>>Ilja.
>>>
>>>Dear Ilja,
>>>
>>>Any actual examples of such hard drives?
>>
>>I knew a local tech who used to have a pile of Conners that were like
>>that. Conner was Compaq's more-or-less house brand. The ones they
>>installed in their desktop PCs had passed the full suite of QC tests;
>>the ones sold in bulk to local discount houses were a different
>>matter. It wasn't uncommon to have to swap the drive once or twice
>>before getting one that worked correctly.
>>
>>Seagate will happily supply premium fully-tested drives at a small
>>additional cost over "as they run" drives. The rejects from that
>>process are not destroyed as long as they are at least minimally
>>functional.
>>
>>Some brands of PC have been notorious for the use of substandard parts
>>in their construction. Before they were bought out by Gateway,
>>e-Machines was firmly in this category. The ECS motherboards they
>>used were even worse than the ones sold at Fry's.
>
>Dear Werehatrack,
>
>Interesting.
>
>What I'm after is an actual current example of the same
>drive with the different markings, the cheap and unreliable
>one available at WalMart (or wherever), the other more
>expensive and reliable one available somewhere else.
>
>Or a link to a drive company with different MTBF ratings for
>the same drive.
>
>Curiously,
>
>Carl Fogel

I would expect this would take some detective work. The companies selling this
stuff would really like to avoid direct comparisons.

Ron

 

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 03 May 2006 20:50:50 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

>What I'm after is an actual current example of the same
>drive with the different markings, the cheap and unreliable
>one available at WalMart (or wherever), the other more
>expensive and reliable one available somewhere else.

I doubt that there's a difference in the markings anymore; what I've
been told is going on is that the major users who want 100% QC drives
at a certain spec level just put that in their PO, the maker fills the
order, and whatever didn't make the cut goes into the general stream
as long as it didn't fail the minimum spec advertised. The *cheapest*
way to buy hard drives is bulk and "as they run"; whatever comes off
the assembly line (which will have been subjected to at least some
minimal testing; there won't be any DOA units) gets shipped. There's
a lot less variation in the product today than there was a few years
ago, but that's not surprising.

>Or a link to a drive company with different MTBF ratings for
>the same drive.

If the advertised spec changes, so will the part number. Why give
something away for free?
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[[email protected]]

oh yeah oh yeah - using the public library for word processing of legal
documents (reason you know I exist) fkeeps me buiying floppy disks, an
obsolete medium, caws ther's no installed "burner"
Woolmort's imagination? disks exhibit - like when you've written
gettysburg address two and gotta save it before the ole bladder dumps a
quart of urine on the rug - a no floormat problem
moving uo to the IBM floppy reduces no floormat to a minumumum.
going next door reducts no floormat even more!!

 

[Peter Cole]

landotter wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>> In article
>> <[email protected]>,
>> "landotter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> jack sprat wrote:
>>> quieter, that's the only superiority in my experience. I actually like
>>> the KMC's old fashioned master link better, the Sram quicklink makes my
>>> fingers bleed.
>> It can be very easy. First practice on a new chain or a
>> very clean chain. Install and remove the link repeatedly
>> until your fingers know how.
>>
>> On an installed chain first flush the master link with
>> solvent until all the grit is washed out. The main
>> impediment to removal is grit between the mating surfaces
>> resisting your efforts; the grit always wins. Then add a
>> bit of oil for overkill.
>
> Sounds quite easy compared to the Herculean task it was last time I
> tried. Now, can you send me a p58 to practice on? : -P
>

I really hate the SRAM links. I can't be bothered to clean the chain
before I take it apart (to clean it). Now, I don't bother to clean
chains at all. The old Craig links were much better. The "keyhole" was
ramped, to make disassembly much easier, the SRAM ones are just stepped,
probably out of concern about spontaneous disassembly, but I never had
that problem with the Craigs, even after using single ones through
several chain lifetimes.

 

[[email protected]]

ungungnnnnggguhgnuhuh
nownownowahhhhhhhhh

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