Dangers of too much water

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by ZB, Apr 14, 2005.

  1. ZB

    ZB Guest

    http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh

    A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets or
    similar on long runs.
     
    Tags:


  2. Yo zitface, anybody who can run 26 miles had sure as hell know what
    they're doing before marathon day. This crap is for amatuers.
     
  3. Edward

    Edward Guest

    "ZB" <zb@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>...
    > http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    >
    > A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets or
    > similar on long runs.


    Surely it's a warning for people who DO take sports drinks.
    Personally, I never bother for runs under 20 miles or two hours, and
    that's only in hot weather. But then I drink small amounts of water
    all through the day (2-3 litres per day) so I'm practically never
    dehydrated before I start.

    Edward
     
  4. ZB

    ZB Guest

    Edward wrote:
    > "ZB" <zb@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:<3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>...
    >> http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    >>
    >> A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets
    >> or similar on long runs.

    >
    > Surely it's a warning for people who DO take sports drinks.


    No, for people who take sports drinks, they should have electrolytes in
    them? I thought this is more aimed at people who take only water.

    > Personally, I never bother for runs under 20 miles or two hours,


    You can do 20 miles in 2 hours? Thats almost an hour faster than me!

    > and
    > that's only in hot weather. But then I drink small amounts of water
    > all through the day (2-3 litres per day) so I'm practically never
    > dehydrated before I start.
    >
    > Edward
     
  5. ZB wrote:
    > Edward wrote:
    >
    >>"ZB" <zb@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    >>news:<3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>...
    >>
    >>>http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    >>>
    >>>A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets
    >>>or similar on long runs.

    >>
    >>Surely it's a warning for people who DO take sports drinks.

    >
    >
    > No, for people who take sports drinks, they should have electrolytes in
    > them? I thought this is more aimed at people who take only water.


    The article says, "Runners who drank sports drinks, which contain very
    little salt, were not less likely to develop hyponatremia."

    Colin
     
  6. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    "Edward" <teddysnips@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:25080b60.0504150334.6b912726@posting.google.com...
    > "ZB" <zb@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:<3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>...
    >> http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    >>
    >> A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets
    >> or
    >> similar on long runs.

    >
    > Surely it's a warning for people who DO take sports drinks.
    > Personally, I never bother for runs under 20 miles or two hours, and
    > that's only in hot weather. But then I drink small amounts of water
    > all through the day (2-3 litres per day) so I'm practically never
    > dehydrated before I start.


    And you are the likely candidate for hyponatremia in a race. It's not
    only those that drink too much but too much water and dilute their salt.
    One of the worst things to do is hydrate on plain water before a
    marathon or any endurance event. At least a sport drink that has some
    salt or if just water get some salt from food.

    -DF
     
  7. rick++

    rick++ Guest

    Dont underestimate the influence of "water diets".
    These diets promote drinking something like eight
    cups (half gallon) of liquids a day to "remove toxins".
    The unfortunate feeding-tube womean in the news
    last month had a hyponatremia heart attack and brain
    damage.
    Usually by the time an athlete reaches multi-hour levels,
    weight control diets arent as much an issue.
     
  8. rick++

    rick++ Guest

    Dont underestimate the influence of "water diets".
    These diets promote drinking something like eight
    cups (half gallon) of liquids a day to "remove toxins".
    The unfortunate feeding-tube womean in the news
    last month had a hyponatremia heart attack and brain
    damage.
    Usually by the time an athlete reaches multi-hour levels,
    weight control diets arent as much an issue.
     
  9. ZB wrote:
    > Edward wrote:
    > > "ZB" <zb@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > > news:<3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>...
    > >> http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    > >>
    > >> A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt

    tablets
    > >> or similar on long runs.

    > >
    > > Surely it's a warning for people who DO take sports drinks.

    >
    > No, for people who take sports drinks, they should have electrolytes

    in
    > them? I thought this is more aimed at people who take only water.


    I should have read more closely.

    > > Personally, I never bother for runs under 20 miles or two hours,

    >
    > You can do 20 miles in 2 hours? Thats almost an hour faster than me!#


    Nearer 2h 10m these days.
     
  10. DaveR

    DaveR Guest

    Edward wrote:

    > "ZB" <zb@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>...
    >
    >>http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    >>
    >>A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets or
    >>similar on long runs.

    >
    >
    > Surely it's a warning for people who DO take sports drinks.
    > Personally, I never bother for runs under 20 miles or two hours, and
    > that's only in hot weather. But then I drink small amounts of water
    > all through the day (2-3 litres per day) so I'm practically never
    > dehydrated before I start.
    >
    > Edward


    Personally I think it is saying don't drink ridiculous amounts
    of water, it is bad for you. To quote from the article

    "They found hyponatremia was most serious in runners who gained
    substantial weight — 4 1/2 pounds to 11 pounds — from drinking lots of
    water along the route."

    This strikes me as impressive drinking, how many runners here
    actually put on significant weight during a run? I certainly don't.

    Dave
     
  11. Ken

    Ken Guest

    In article <3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>, ZB <zb@hotmail.com> writes
    >http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    >
    >A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets or
    >similar on long runs.
    >
    >

    You appear to me to seriously misrepresent the article you cite. The
    whole thrust of the article is drink less water, not take more salt.
    --
    Ken
     
  12. ZB

    ZB Guest

    Ken wrote:
    > In article <3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>, ZB <zb@hotmail.com>
    > writes
    >> http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    >>
    >> A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets
    >> or similar on long runs.
    >>
    >>

    > You appear to me to seriously misrepresent the article you cite. The
    > whole thrust of the article is drink less water, not take more salt.


    The whole point of the article is an imbalance between salt and water
    intake. Endurance athletes who run greater distances than marathons take
    salt to allow them to take on more fluids.
     
  13. Tom Phillips

    Tom Phillips Guest

    ZB wrote:
    >
    > Ken wrote:
    > > In article <3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>, ZB <zb@hotmail.com>
    > > writes
    > >> http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    > >>
    > >> A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets
    > >> or similar on long runs.
    > >>
    > >>

    > > You appear to me to seriously misrepresent the article you cite. The
    > > whole thrust of the article is drink less water, not take more salt.

    >
    > The whole point of the article is an imbalance between salt and water
    > intake. Endurance athletes who run greater distances than marathons take
    > salt to allow them to take on more fluids.


    Which imbalance can also vary from person to person.
    You can't just say "more [water] is definitely not
    better when it comes to fluids" without defining what
    more is. One needs balanced fluid-electrolyte replacement.
     
  14. Ken

    Ken Guest

    In article <3cl2diF6mp4lqU1@individual.net>, ZB <zb@hotmail.com> writes
    >Ken wrote:
    >> In article <3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>, ZB <zb@hotmail.com>
    >> writes
    >>> http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    >>>
    >>> A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets
    >>> or similar on long runs.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> You appear to me to seriously misrepresent the article you cite. The
    >> whole thrust of the article is drink less water, not take more salt.

    >
    >The whole point of the article is an imbalance between salt and water
    >intake. Endurance athletes who run greater distances than marathons take
    >salt to allow them to take on more fluids.
    >
    >

    No it isn't. In fact the young lady had been drinking large quantities
    of gatorade which contains sodium and potassium.

    In the case of Michele Burr, who suffered a severe (but not lethal) case
    of hyponatremia during the Vermont 100, she says that she had been
    consuming electrolyte fluids, succeed tablets, as well as potato chips,
    peanut butter, jelly sandwiches, fig newtons and potatoes.

    It appears that the causes of hyponatremia are complex.

    Your assertion that endurance athletes take salt is simply that. Some
    do, some don't.

    Incidentally I am not clear whether hyponatremia encephalopathy (sp) was
    the official cause of death registered by the coroner, or whether this
    was decided/suggested by the private team of medical researchers who
    were studying that condition.

    Personally, I have never taken salt though I do seem to go to pieces in
    hot weather so maybe I should start. But what I find intriguing is that
    on a freezing cold day when the only fluid loss is mucous dripping from
    my nose, race organisers admonishing me to "drink early, drink often"

    One web site I visited recently advised that by the time we know we are
    thirsty it is too late. In other words they imply the thirst mechanism
    is ineffective. I haven't been show the evidence to support this.
    Meanwhile runners consume vast quantities of fluid in pursuit of the
    holy grail of colourless, odourless urine, and find themselves water
    poisoned before the race has even started.
    --
    Ken
     
  15. Tom Phillips

    Tom Phillips Guest

    Ken wrote:
    >
    > In article <3cl2diF6mp4lqU1@individual.net>, ZB <zb@hotmail.com> writes
    > >Ken wrote:
    > >> In article <3c84faF6nqqpnU1@individual.net>, ZB <zb@hotmail.com>
    > >> writes
    > >>> http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    > >>>
    > >>> A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets
    > >>> or similar on long runs.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >> You appear to me to seriously misrepresent the article you cite. The
    > >> whole thrust of the article is drink less water, not take more salt.

    > >
    > >The whole point of the article is an imbalance between salt and water
    > >intake. Endurance athletes who run greater distances than marathons take
    > >salt to allow them to take on more fluids.
    > >
    > >

    > No it isn't. In fact the young lady had been drinking large quantities
    > of gatorade which contains sodium and potassium.


    If I can butt in here, ZB is right. It is an
    imbalance between salt and water intake, i.e.,
    too much water minus enough electrolytes or too
    much salt minus enough water. That fluid-salts
    balance is how your body functions and something
    it tries to maintain _despite_ physiological abuse
    to the contrary.

    > In the case of Michele Burr, who suffered a severe (but not lethal) case
    > of hyponatremia during the Vermont 100, she says that she had been
    > consuming electrolyte fluids, succeed tablets, as well as potato chips,
    > peanut butter, jelly sandwiches, fig newtons and potatoes.
    >
    > It appears that the causes of hyponatremia are complex.
    >
    > Your assertion that endurance athletes take salt is simply that. Some
    > do, some don't.


    Nonsense. Electrolytes come in various food forms.
    May not use salt caps, but maybe eat Big Macs instead,
    or they may simply carry their own sport drink, gel, etc.
    You can lose electrolytes and not replace them during
    a longer run but at _some_ point after the run you need
    to replace them. The problem comes from losing more
    electrolytes than a normal diet can adequately provide
    for during endurance activities. This is why sport drink
    have electrolytes...

    > Incidentally I am not clear whether hyponatremia encephalopathy (sp) was
    > the official cause of death registered by the coroner, or whether this
    > was decided/suggested by the private team of medical researchers who
    > were studying that condition.
    >
    > Personally, I have never taken salt though I do seem to go to pieces in
    > hot weather so maybe I should start. But what I find intriguing is that
    > on a freezing cold day when the only fluid loss is mucous dripping from
    > my nose, race organisers admonishing me to "drink early, drink often"


    Wrong. You can lose almost as much body fluid when it's
    cold as when the temps seem normal. In fact, the colder
    it gets (below zero) the more dehydrated you can get.
    Just because you don't feel sweat dripping off your
    forehead doesn't mean you're not sweating. You also
    lose a good deal of body fluid via respiration. Hence
    onhe always should be rehydration conscious and make
    sure you intake a balance of fluids and electrolytes.

    > One web site I visited recently advised that by the time we know we are
    > thirsty it is too late. In other words they imply the thirst mechanism
    > is ineffective. I haven't been show the evidence to support this.
    > Meanwhile runners consume vast quantities of fluid in pursuit of the
    > holy grail of colourless, odourless urine, and find themselves water
    > poisoned before the race has even started.
    > --
    > Ken
     
  16. Too much water? That's just crazy talk. Sincerely, A. Mackerel
     
  17. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    "Ken" <Ken@dasha.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:BR2GA2CLqWZCFwak@dasha.demon.co.uk...
    >>The whole point of the article is an imbalance between salt and water
    >>intake. Endurance athletes who run greater distances than marathons
    >>take
    >>salt to allow them to take on more fluids.
    >>
    >>

    > No it isn't. In fact the young lady had been drinking large
    > quantities of gatorade which contains sodium and potassium.


    In hot conditions Gatorade falls far short in the salt department.

    > In the case of Michele Burr, who suffered a severe (but not lethal)
    > case of hyponatremia during the Vermont 100, she says that she had
    > been consuming electrolyte fluids, succeed tablets, as well as potato
    > chips, peanut butter, jelly sandwiches, fig newtons and potatoes.


    Yes, she had consumed all this but she was NOT taking in enough salt for
    her for that day.

    "" They said that my low sodium diet, combined with a high volume of
    running (sometimes as much as 100 miles/week) and sweating in the heat
    and humidity here in the Washington DC area were the problem combined
    with the low volume of electrolyte fluids (relative to the amount of
    water I was taking in)."

    Translation - not enough salt for the water she was consuming

    ""Upon being admitted at the first hospital in Vermont my sodium level
    was 113mEq/L but then quickly went to 116 and the next reading was at
    126. The hospital felt uncomfortable and kept telling my husband it was
    possible I'd get "PONDS" - which is central pontine myelinolysis
    (permanent brain damage). They also told him to think about long term
    care for me and that "things could turn out a number of ways". They also
    asked him if I remained in a vegetative state, would I want my organs
    donated and did I have a living will prepared. At this point, an
    ambulance took me to New Hampshire to Dartmouth-Hitchcock. Needless to
    say, I think I aged my husband about ten years during these five days.""

    Note her sodium level - severely low. To repeat too much water and not
    enough salt.

    >
    > It appears that the causes of hyponatremia are complex.
    >
    > Your assertion that endurance athletes take salt is simply that. Some
    > do, some don't.


    And how many have you done? There are some that can get by with just
    the salt in a sport drink but that number can be counted on a few
    fingers. A 50k in cool weather one can probably get their extra salt
    from chips or the proverbial salt dish and spuds. Once the temp goes up
    and the distance grows the vast majority have some brand of salt cap on
    them.

    > Personally, I have never taken salt though I do seem to go to pieces
    > in hot weather so maybe I should start. But what I find intriguing is
    > that on a freezing cold day when the only fluid loss is mucous
    > dripping from my nose, race organisers admonishing me to "drink early,
    > drink often"


    You are sweating more than you think and one can suffer from simple
    dehydration if you're not careful to drink.


    >
    > One web site I visited recently advised that by the time we know we
    > are thirsty it is too late. In other words they imply the thirst
    > mechanism is ineffective. I haven't been show the evidence to support
    > this.


    This is not a simple issue and has many variables and why there is
    conflicting data. I'll over generalize and say in cool(I know cool is
    vague) races many can people rely on thirst to drive their fluid intake.
    Again, once the temp goes up this gets to be a tricky problem. Let's
    assume you running Western States and you happen to cruising at some
    elevation with temps in there 40's with some snow and taking in your
    fluid by thirst. Then the trail descends into the canyon's and the temp
    jumps in a few minutes to 100. If you're relying on your thirst to keep
    you hydrated you end up in deep shit because the fluids pass through
    like piss out window and bam you in trouble.

    It's ideal to stay well hydrated to cover these cases. When I say well
    hydrated I mean - in sodium balance.

    > Meanwhile runners consume vast quantities of fluid in pursuit of the
    > holy grail of colourless, odourless urine, and find themselves water
    > poisoned before the race has even started.


    If you mean they drink to much water before the race starts and let
    their sodium ratio drop severely, you are correct. Even if it's a sport
    drink you end up in trouble because sports drink are low on salt. If you
    don't have a salt cap try a V8.

    -DougF
     
  18. steve common

    steve common Guest

    "ZB" <zb@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >http://tinyurl.com/3vgsh
    >
    >A warning for those of you who dont take sports drinks, salt tablets or
    >similar on long runs.


    Just an extra data point to play with :

    the Sand Marathon rations each runner to 10.5 litres of water *for the whole
    day* on the marathon stage (42.2km). So it would appear that this is enough
    water to race through the Sahara desert (typical midday temps 30-40°C) for
    up to 11h16m (last arrival) AND make breakfast, lunch and diner from the
    dehydrated stuff you have to carry around.

    You get one bottle before the start, one at each control (11.5k, 21k, 30k),
    and three on arrival. It was so hot this year they decided to give an extra
    1.5litre bottle at the last control.

    Strangely, there are very few abandons (4 out of 735) and even less
    dehydrations or hyponatremias, this despite the stage being run after 5
    days/190km in the desert with an average of 9litres water per day.

    You're supposed to get most of your salt needs from food and drinks. I took
    a salt tablet every two hours during the runs and another two each evening
    and morning.
     
  19. Doug Freese wrote:
    > "Ken" <Ken@dasha.demon.co.uk> wrote in message


    >>Meanwhile runners consume vast quantities of fluid in pursuit of the
    >>holy grail of colourless, odourless urine, and find themselves water
    >>poisoned before the race has even started.


    > If you mean they drink to much water before the race starts and let
    > their sodium ratio drop severely, you are correct. Even if it's a sport
    > drink you end up in trouble because sports drink are low on salt. If you
    > don't have a salt cap try a V8.


    The solution is pretty simple; hydrate well the day before a long
    run/race to the point where you're peeing a little more than usual, but
    not to the point of every half hour. You should be eating well also,
    presumably including some carbs. So that leaves the electrolytes. You
    will get some from food but not enough to offset the increased fluids.
    My very simple solution is to take a SUCCEED! during the middle of the
    day and another one right before bed. Since I started doing this I
    hardly ever have to get up during the night to pee (which is quite an
    achievement for a doddering old man like me) and I've never had a
    hyrdration/electrolyte problem, which should say something considering I
    do quite a few long races in 90-100+ degree temperatures.

    --
    - The Trailrunner

    Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

    Trails of the Diablo Valley
    *Running - Hiking - Nature*
    http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/
     
  20. didgerman

    didgerman Guest

    "Doug Freese" <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
    news:1vB9e.10741$n93.7508@twister.nyc.rr.com...
    >
    > "Ken" <Ken@dasha.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:BR2GA2CLqWZCFwak@dasha.demon.co.uk...
    >>>The whole point of the article is an imbalance between salt and water
    >>>intake. Endurance athletes who run greater distances than marathons take
    >>>salt to allow them to take on more fluids.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> No it isn't. In fact the young lady had been drinking large quantities
    >> of gatorade which contains sodium and potassium.

    >
    > In hot conditions Gatorade falls far short in the salt department.


    I've spoken to someone who was sponsored by gatorade, and they were a Dr of
    chemistry. They didn't use gatorade when they trained or raced, only now and
    then for the taste.
    They sell it in schools in the US, enough said.
     
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