Re: Countersteering 101: Shut the **** Up and Listen

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:

> [NOTE: Do not even think about replying to this post unless you've taken
> college level physics.]
> ----------------------------------------

Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
tracking in the opposite direction for a short
distance. This is an experimental fact.

--
Michael Press

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [NOTE: Do not even think about replying to this post unless you've taken
>> college level physics.]
>> ----------------------------------------
>
> Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
> tracking in the opposite direction for a short
> distance. This is an experimental fact.
>
How short?

 

[MagillaGorilla]

Michael Press wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>[NOTE: Do not even think about replying to this post unless you've taken
>>college level physics.]
>>----------------------------------------
>
>
> Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
> tracking in the opposite direction for a short
> distance. This is an experimental fact.
>


This could be true but it is an incredibly miniscule moment and is not
what the concept of countersteering in a turn is about, which takes
place throughout the execution of a turn.

People in here were trying to sell everyone that countersteering was
something that took place in ONLY the initiation of the turn, and they
were talking about it like gay faggots (i.e. "if you want to turn left,
you turn your handlebars right").

I just wanted to go put on a pair of Bruno Magli loafers and go OJ
Simpson on them.

A lot of these people repeating this mantra were motorcycle riders and
you gotta wonder how many times they stacked it.


Thanks,


Magilla

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> [NOTE: Do not even think about replying to this post unless you've taken
> >> college level physics.]
> >> ----------------------------------------
> >
> > Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
> > tracking in the opposite direction for a short
> > distance. This is an experimental fact.
> >
> How short?

I have not measured it. Consider times when you have
been tracking exactly on the edge of some line you did
not want to cross: next to a curb, or the edge of
pavement and non-pavement, or overlapping somebody's
wheel. You cannot move away from that line without
actually moving toward it first.

--
Michael Press

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>[NOTE: Do not even think about replying to this post unless you've taken
> >>college level physics.]
> >>----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
> > tracking in the opposite direction for a short
> > distance. This is an experimental fact.
> >
>
>
> This could be true but it is an incredibly miniscule moment and is not
> what the concept of countersteering in a turn is about, which takes
> place throughout the execution of a turn.

It is assuredly true. The moment may be enough to take
you over the edge of the pavement into the kitty
litter, given that you are tracking close enough to the
edge. This is not theoretical. It is real and has
practical consequences.

> People in here were trying to sell everyone that countersteering was
> something that took place in ONLY the initiation of the turn, and they
> were talking about it like gay faggots (i.e. "if you want to turn left,
> you turn your handlebars right").
>
> I just wanted to go put on a pair of Bruno Magli loafers and go OJ
> Simpson on them.
>
> A lot of these people repeating this mantra were motorcycle riders and
> you gotta wonder how many times they stacked it.

I do not attempt to impede you in your mission to make
the world, and in particular rbr, a better place. I
only hope that I can assist you, however small my
efforts.

--
Michael Press

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
>> > tracking in the opposite direction for a short
>> > distance. This is an experimental fact.
>> >
>> How short?
>
> I have not measured it. Consider times when you have
> been tracking exactly on the edge of some line you did
> not want to cross: next to a curb, or the edge of
> pavement and non-pavement, or overlapping somebody's
> wheel. You cannot move away from that line without
> actually moving toward it first.

Ok. Countersteering on a bicycle is required by physics to initiate a turn.
You cannot train for it, you just do it. Now how about this? If you alter
the radius of a turn, are there further moments of countersteering for each
modification of steering input? One would think so.

Regardless, countersteering a bicycle is not a technique you can develop or
improve, nor is it a process that is maintained throughout the course of a
turn from initiation to conclusion.

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >> >
> >> > Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
> >> > tracking in the opposite direction for a short
> >> > distance. This is an experimental fact.
> >> >
> >> How short?
> >
> > I have not measured it. Consider times when you have
> > been tracking exactly on the edge of some line you did
> > not want to cross: next to a curb, or the edge of
> > pavement and non-pavement, or overlapping somebody's
> > wheel. You cannot move away from that line without
> > actually moving toward it first.
>
> Ok. Countersteering on a bicycle is required by physics to initiate a turn.
> You cannot train for it, you just do it. Now how about this? If you alter
> the radius of a turn, are there further moments of countersteering for each
> modification of steering input? One would think so.
>
> Regardless, countersteering a bicycle is not a technique you can develop or
> improve, nor is it a process that is maintained throughout the course of a
> turn from initiation to conclusion.

Agree. Never said otherwise. Recognition of the
phenomenon could conceivably enhance one's bike
handling.

--
Michael Press

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Ok. Countersteering on a bicycle is required by physics to initiate a
>> turn.
>> You cannot train for it, you just do it. Now how about this? If you alter
>> the radius of a turn, are there further moments of countersteering for
>> each
>> modification of steering input? One would think so.
>>
>> Regardless, countersteering a bicycle is not a technique you can develop
>> or
>> improve, nor is it a process that is maintained throughout the course of
>> a
>> turn from initiation to conclusion.
>
> Agree. Never said otherwise. Recognition of the
> phenomenon could conceivably enhance one's bike
> handling.
>

Didn't mean to imply that you did say otherwise. I was just extrapolating
from what you had said.

 

[Stephen Waits]

On Jan 7, 8:11 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

> Agree. Never said otherwise. Recognition of the
> phenomenon could conceivably enhance one's bike
> handling.

This is absolutely the case. Descending through the twisties on the
bicycle quickly reveals those who do recognize this and those who
don't.

Yes I'm a motorcyclist, fast enough, not a crasher, and yes, we
absolutely do initiate turns via countersteering.

However, the moments of inertia on a bicycle are much smaller.
Shifting body weight has a giant impact on a bicycle. Shift your body
around on a motorcycle at any reasonable speed and you won't get much
of anything accomplished. But, try cornering without using your bars
on the bicycle. Probably not too snappy.

Regardless, recognize counter-steering, and I am certain you'll be a
faster cornerer on the bicycle. On the motorcycle, this understanding
is necessary to keep you alive.

--Steve

 

[Bobst Jrandt]

"Stephen Waits" wrote:

> Regardless, recognize counter-steering, and I am certain you'll be a
> faster cornerer on the bicycle.

I've never, ever made an effort to countersteer, and I've only been
out-descended once (for about 200 meters); the guy who tried to go faster
crashed, and he happened to be an instructor at the California Superbike
School. Speaking of which, one of countersteering's main proponents, Keith
Code, is also a long-time Scientologist.

Countersteering is useful to people who learned to ride two wheels late in
life or are essentially timid, and need a psychological crutch to do
something that just comes down to having a pair (of good tires, too).

 

[MagillaGorilla]

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>>>Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
>>>>tracking in the opposite direction for a short
>>>>distance. This is an experimental fact.
>>>>
>>>
>>>How short?
>>
>>I have not measured it. Consider times when you have
>>been tracking exactly on the edge of some line you did
>>not want to cross: next to a curb, or the edge of
>>pavement and non-pavement, or overlapping somebody's
>>wheel. You cannot move away from that line without
>>actually moving toward it first.
>
>
> Ok. Countersteering on a bicycle is required by physics to initiate a turn.
> You cannot train for it, you just do it. Now how about this? If you alter
> the radius of a turn, are there further moments of countersteering for each
> modification of steering input? One would think so.
> Regardless, countersteering a bicycle is not a technique you can develop or
> improve, nor is it a process that is maintained throughout the course of a
> turn from initiation to conclusion.


Carl Carl Carl...

Anyone who raced a crit knows that throughout a turn you feather back
your turning in the opposite direction of the turn itself (though the
net displacement of the handlebars with respect to the frame is still in
the same direction of the turn). This helps lessen the friction on your
wheels and keeps your inertial speed high.

If you were to turn hard into a turn with your handlebars without using
any countersteering, it would feel totally akward. Beginners and 99.976
of triathletes tend to execute this type of turning.

Though I don't doubt there is a momentary act of countersteering which
initiates a turn, that's not what the concept colloquially refers to as
a skill that can be honed.

Countersteering (the 'throughout the turn' one) most certainly can be
honed.

Thanks,


Magilla

 

[MagillaGorilla]

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>>>Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
>>>>tracking in the opposite direction for a short
>>>>distance. This is an experimental fact.
>>>>
>>>
>>>How short?
>>
>>I have not measured it. Consider times when you have
>>been tracking exactly on the edge of some line you did
>>not want to cross: next to a curb, or the edge of
>>pavement and non-pavement, or overlapping somebody's
>>wheel. You cannot move away from that line without
>>actually moving toward it first.
>
>
> Ok. Countersteering on a bicycle is required by physics to initiate a turn.
> You cannot train for it, you just do it. Now how about this? If you alter
> the radius of a turn, are there further moments of countersteering for each
> modification of steering input? One would think so.
>
> Regardless, countersteering a bicycle is not a technique you can develop or
> improve, nor is it a process that is maintained throughout the course of a
> turn from initiation to conclusion.
>
>


Most references talk about countersteering as the initial moment. I
concede such a thing occurs, but I am talking about countersteering as
the constant back-pressure you put in the opposite direction of your
turn THROUGHOUT a turn.

Although I'm not saying this link proves my argument, it says exactly
what I am saying:

http://www.motorbyte.com/mmm/pages/safety/safety49.htm

"Smooth, firm countersteering keeps the bike on your desired line and
creates little instability in the suspension."

---------------

So neither of us is technically wrong - we are talking about two
different acts of countersteering that both take place in a turn.

Magilla

 

[[email protected]]

MagillaGorilla wrote:
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> > "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>>>Any turn is preceded by the front tire contact patch
> >>>>tracking in the opposite direction for a short
> >>>>distance. This is an experimental fact.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>How short?
> >>
> >>I have not measured it. Consider times when you have
> >>been tracking exactly on the edge of some line you did
> >>not want to cross: next to a curb, or the edge of
> >>pavement and non-pavement, or overlapping somebody's
> >>wheel. You cannot move away from that line without
> >>actually moving toward it first.
> >
> >
> > Ok. Countersteering on a bicycle is required by physics to initiate a turn.
> > You cannot train for it, you just do it. Now how about this? If you alter
> > the radius of a turn, are there further moments of countersteering for each
> > modification of steering input? One would think so.
> > Regardless, countersteering a bicycle is not a technique you can develop or
> > improve, nor is it a process that is maintained throughout the course of a
> > turn from initiation to conclusion.
>
>
> Carl Carl Carl...
>
> Anyone who raced a crit knows that throughout a turn you feather back
> your turning in the opposite direction of the turn itself (though the
> net displacement of the handlebars with respect to the frame is still in
> the same direction of the turn). This helps lessen the friction on your
> wheels and keeps your inertial speed high.
>
> If you were to turn hard into a turn with your handlebars without using
> any countersteering, it would feel totally akward. Beginners and 99.976
> of triathletes tend to execute this type of turning.
>
> Though I don't doubt there is a momentary act of countersteering which
> initiates a turn, that's not what the concept colloquially refers to as
> a skill that can be honed.
>
> Countersteering (the 'throughout the turn' one) most certainly can be
> honed.

I'll bet that the effectiveness and degree to which this can be
discerned is also dependant on bike geometry and speed. Different
combinations of geometry and speed making this more or less pronounced.
In particular I was thinking about trail, and whether the bike tries on
it's own to fall inot the turn, or climb out of it. Perhaps the
geometry preferred by crit riders tends to favor the technique such
that riders of other types of bikes do not notice it as much, nor do
they lose as much by not using it. Or maybe not.

I suppose it has to do with where the contact patches are, the radius
of the arc they describe on the road, and what the required lean angle
is to have the bike automatically follow this arc (without any manual
adjustment to steering angle) and at what speed that particular lean
angle is acheived.

Joseph