Threshold workouts: New thinking

[dkrenik]

Good stuff Frost.

I think that you'll find that both crit's and micro-intervals will result in a number of points in the upper right quadrant (high force & high velocity/cadence). As you've seen, even a highly variable, well paced, TT (generally) won't put that many points in that quadrant.

Might depend on duration of TT. If it was a shorter "prologue" type effort, it might be appropriate to have some efforts in the 1st quadrant. I know that if I were to have those types of efforts in a longer TT, I'd "blow" in spectacular fashion.

Dave

 

[dkrenik]

Reason why I bring this up is that I'm now in training for track season. I thus do my intervals on my fixed gear track bike and the higher rpm involved (for the same relative power output on my road bike) places a significant strain on my cardiovascular and muscular systems. As such, significant adaptations are in order - which are what we're all looking for.

Sorry, I don't get this one. I only see "training harder" to generate the same power as being inefficient. How does this enable one to generate more power?

Dave

 

[tonyzackery]

Sorry, I don't get this one. I only see "training harder" to generate the same power as being inefficient. How does this enable one to generate more power?

Dave

Whose goal is "training harder in order to generate the same power"????? I offered this as a way to eliminate boredom. It appears to me the OP is bored with the same training regimens.

Look at it this way: if I can put out 'x' power now at 100rpm which is not my preferred rpm. With training I can put 'x' +10w (nominal figure) power at the same rpm. I am now generating more power at this uncomfortable rpm which will have purpose in the racing I do.

Let's look at this way as well - am I going to do my intervals at say, for example, 60rpm even if I'm cardiovascularly more efficient (for a given power output) and more powerful at this cadence? No. This is not realistic in a racing sense. Would I probably be able to "generate more power" at this lower and more efficient rpm, yeah, but it's not expedient to my racing goals.

 

[dkrenik]

Who is "training harder to generate the same power"?????
Look at it this way: if I can put out 'x' power now at 100rpm, with proper training I can put 'x' +10w (nominal figure) power at the same rpm. So am I now generating more power? Yes...

Your post said:

for the same relative power output

That's what I was referring to.

Dave

 

[john979]

Your post said:

That's what I was referring to.

Dave

Power reading are independent of cadence. 300 watts is 300 watts at 50, 75 and 100 RPMs.

 

[bubsy]

One thing that cannot be overlooked while doing threshold work is cadence. To the OP: have you tried completing your intervals at varied cadences? Doing them at your preferred cadence versus doing them at 10rpm above will make for a totally different workout.

Reason why I bring this up is that I'm now in training for track season. I thus do my intervals on my fixed gear track bike and the higher rpm involved (for the same relative power output on my road bike) places a significant strain on my cardiovascular and muscular systems. As such, significant adaptations are in order - which are what we're all looking for.

Again, doing threshold intervals at a cadence above your preferred is nothing new but it is definitely worth implementing.

l hear ya on the cadence side of training, l have been doing my shorter intervals which l do at higher watts 8-15m @ 100-105rpm Vs my longer intervals & races which l usually prefer 90-95rpm, the reason l do this is because if l grind away @ 90rpm at the upper end of my aerobic capacity for an entire session the next day the legs really pay for it and l can bearly manage more than a recovery ride the next day and struggle to get my cadence above 90rpm, howerver at 10rpm higher same watts same duration for the session (even though it pushes my hr up quicker & is less comfortable than 95rpm) the next day l can head back out & do 2-3hrs in lower L3 & the legs still feel fresh and l stuggle to contain the urge to push hard for a second day in a row so l sometimes intentionly cut the ride short to avoid digging too big of a hole for myself. Since doing this my CTL has increased as l can train more often and better quality training which more importantly has led to quite a significant power increase in the last 8-10wks than l have had in the last 12mths right across my entire power curve except L7 intervals which l almost never do.
So for this little black duck cadence is just as important as diet and rest in my training plan.

 

[john979]

l hear ya on the cadence side of training, l have been doing my shorter intervals which l do at higher watts 8-15m @ 100-105rpm Vs my longer intervals & races which l usually prefer 90-95rpm, the reason l do this is because if l grind away @ 90rpm at the upper end of my aerobic capacity for an entire session the next day the legs really pay for it and l can bearly manage more than a recovery ride the next day and struggle to get my cadence above 90rpm, howerver at 10rpm higher same watts same duration for the session (even though it pushes my hr up quicker & is less comfortable than 95rpm) the next day l can head back out & do 2-3hrs in lower L3 & the legs still feel fresh and l stuggle to contain the urge to push hard for a second day in a row so l sometimes intentionly cut the ride short to avoid digging too big of a hole for myself. Since doing this my CTL has increased as l can train more often and better quality training which more importantly has led to quite a significant power increase in the last 8-10wks than l have had in the last 12mths right across my entire power curve except L7 intervals which l almost never have
So for this little black duck cadence is just as important as diet and rest in my training plan.

The higher the power, the higher the optimum cadence. Unfortunately, the body sense force better than power. Therefore, without an objective measurement, most tend to overgear simply because bigger gears feel like more power is being produced.

When riding on my PT300 Pro trainer, a "single-speed" machine where my primary metric is power, I find that my optimum cadence for threshold training is high-80s, VO2 max training 95-100 RPM and 30-second interval training over 100 RPM.

I highly recommend not monitoring anything but power if you hvae a PM; select a cadence that feels easiest for that power and you have found your optimum cadence.

 

[Ade Merckx]

One thing that cannot be overlooked while doing threshold work is cadence. To the OP: have you tried completing your intervals at varied cadences? Doing them at your preferred cadence versus doing them at 10rpm above will make for a totally different workout.

Reason why I bring this up is that I'm now in training for track season. I thus do my intervals on my fixed gear track bike and the higher rpm involved (for the same relative power output on my road bike) places a significant strain on my cardiovascular and muscular systems. As such, significant adaptations are in order - which are what we're all looking for.

Again, doing threshold intervals at a cadence above your preferred is nothing new but it is definitely worth implementing.

Cheers Tony, when riding on the KK trainer jumping from 90rpms at 53/17 to 53/15 and the cadence drops to 84rpm; I'm gonna try to keep things above 96rpms at 53/17rpms which will keep 2 x 20's and 3 x 30's at a higher wattage and as Busby pointed out will keep my legs thresher for workouts on subsequent days.