What happens when you oppose Bu$hCo too vigorously

[limerickman]

Lim...the fight was won. We came...we saw....we conquered.....we realized their wasn't anything there worth anything....we left.

It's pretty simple....the conquering took about a week.

I see. The fight was won, was it?

I wonder why NATO are requesting more troops for Afghanistan?
maybe they need more bodies for the search party Bill, eh?

 

[EoinC]

If that were true, Julius Caesar never would have occupied the British Isles for hundreds of years and the Iceni tribe and allied tribes would have pushed the Romans out completely. However, they didn't. Or the Chechnyans would have driven Russia out of Chechnya e.t.c. Or the French would have driven the Nazis out without the need for Russia to get involved and the attack on Berlin...

A little different, Carrera. The Afghani's have been conducting war using and being hit by modern weaponry for quite some time - The ousting of the Soviets comes to mind as a recent example.

...You need to be a bit wary of assuming that just because the Americans have lost conflicts in the past, this automatically means all modern armies can't get the better of inferior, poorly armed opponents...

I don't believe I ever made that assumption, Carrera. My comments were directed more towards the specifics of this campaign of occupation. Afghanistan is a very, very difficult place to occupy - Allegiances are ethereal, the terrain is horrific, the people are used to have the **** blown out of them, the "enemy" has an uncanny ability to blend into and become the public, the tribal people's desire not to be occupied is probably more resolute than the Coalition Force's desire to be there and not know where the next shot is going to come from. I feel for those troops who have been sent there to fight what I would deem an unwinable war (at least without causing total destuction). There was a political solution, but our mighty Governments chose not to take it, preferring to support the installation of a puppet regime, dedicated to appeasing one portion of the population - Shades of South Vietnam's President Nguyen Van Thieu and Soviet Afghanistan's President Babrak Kamal?

...The Americans are well known to be not particularly good in ground conflict which is why they should have avoided ever getting into ground wars in the first place. What they do have is vastly superior technology so you ask yourself why they bother fighting the kind of war they're now engaged in...

I do, indeed.

...All this talk about how great the Taliban is supposed to be is simply misguided They're essentially a bunch of non-uniformed, disorganised hit-and-run tribal lords, no different than the Celtic tribes the Romans had to combat in forests and woodland after they invaded Britain. The Celts swords and bows were really no use against the machinery and discipline the Roman legions had to offer. The Zulus spears were really not much use against muskets.
The day wars are decided in space using satellites, you can bet the Taliban won't be involved in any of it.

I don't think anyone claimed that the Taliban were a conventional army. I would disagree on the "disorganised" nature of their efforts and, if your term "tribal lords" is meant to be disparaging, then I believe that you, and our Governments, severly underestimate the capabilities of these people. The routing of the Soviets left a road-kill ratio of around 1 million Afghani's to 15,000 Soviets, along with annihilation of what infrastructure existed over there. Such odds were not enough to make the MH weak-hearted. I doubt if the current situation has them trembling at the knees either.
Again, I have no liking for the Taliban, but I also have no liking for our soldiers, and others, being killed in a meaningless war. Taking on the Afghani's militarily is like using a bayonet to cut oneself out of a vat of jelly.

 

[BillM]

It hasn't been claimed.




Prove it Bill.
A long time does depend on your frame of reference.
But we're not talking cancer, Bill.
We're talking about the attempts to capture your country's most wanted fugitive.

We don't need to capture him to win....we need to render him ineffective. That has been done....despite your assertions that he is still calling the shots....Lim.

I realize this is a difficult concept to grasp from a citizen of a country that is not relative to world affairs...but we understand it.

One day can be a long time in a given reference
Five years is an even longer time.
Especially for your country's number 1 fugitive to remain free, Bill.




Bill...Bill...Bill.... pay attention.
You yourself asserted that Binladen was living in a cave two days ago.
So you accept that he is alive.

Why would you post a statement that you don't believe in, Bill?

I don't know if he is alive or dead. If he's alive...I suspect him to be living like a cockroach in a cave in the mountains somewhere.

If he's dead....then we move on to the next bad guy on the list.

Bill...Bill...Bill....you now concede that you could be wrong and that Binladen might not live in a cave.

No crayons needed Bill.

Matter of opinion....Lim...Lim...Lim.

Have you proof that he has been captured?
Can you proof that the $25m bounty has been claimed for the US's number 1 fugitive?

No.

Bit late for that.




Actually oil production has dropped in Iraq prior to 17th March 2003 levels.
Total production has dropped from 4m barrels per day to 1.5m barrels per day.

The cost of Iraq far outweighs the benefit Bill.

The production has dropped because Bush is siphoning it off in the secret underwater tunnel that goes to Texas. EVERYONE knows this...apparently...except you...Lim.

I never made any claims about my country.

What's to claim Lim.

You made claims about your country - that's the subject matter, Bill.
The claims you made are being disputed.

Need to pay closer attention Bill.

Not really. This has been about OBL...not my country. You keep trying to make it about my country because you have a hard on for Americans but that's ok...there are a lot of guys out there like you Lim.

Suggest you stick with trying to resolve the foreign national aliens first, Bill - as you seem to be finding this entire topic quite difficult.

Not really. I just learned to try and type as though I were talking to a 6 year old and suddenly it became easy Lim.

Your most insightful contribution, thus far, Bill.

I agree...that and my highly accurate statement about Ireland mattering to the world about as much as a box of Cheerios.

 

[BillM]

I see. The fight was won, was it?

I wonder why NATO are requesting more troops for Afghanistan?
maybe they need more bodies for the search party Bill, eh?

No...maybe they are getting ready to attack Iran Lim, eh?

 

[BillM]

The Americans are well known to be not particularly good in ground conflict which is why they should have avoided ever getting into ground wars in the first place. What they do have is vastly superior technology so you ask yourself why they bother fighting the kind of war they're now engaged in.
All this talk about how great the Taliban is supposed to be is simply misguided They're essentially a bunch of non-uniformed, disorganised hit-and-run tribal lords, no different than the Celtic tribes the Romans had to combat in forests and woodland after they invaded Britain. The Celts swords and bows were really no use against the machinery and discipline Roman legions had to offer. The Zulus spears were really not much use against muskets.
The day wars are decided in space using satellites, you can bet the Taliban won't be involved in any of it.

I disagree with Americans not being good in a ground conflict. I think the USMC could and would go head to head with any fighting force in the world.

If there is any kind of reputation there...it would be based on Vietnam. Our military is vastly superior and completely different now than then. What always hinders our ground activity is the political aspect at home. Many of our citizens think we can win a ground war with no casualties...and that is difficult to do.

We always try to measure our response, limit our casualties etc. Afghanistan is the perfect example...post 9/11 the average American would have supported any and all activity to capture OBL. We went into Afghanistan in force and with thunder. We went through this country in a few short weeks. A feat the vaunted Soviet Army couldn't accomplish in years.

Now I will submit that Afghanistan is hardly a worth opponent however many on here appear to believe that they are the toughest fighting force in history...so using their logic....I guess that makes us the toughest kid on the block.

The motivation and tactics of our army is largely dependent on the political mood at home. If our country is mobilized behind a mission and in support....I will stand firm on the fact that their does not exist a military...including China...that could stand up to us. Technology is obviously a part of that...however that has been a part of any conflict since the days of the spear.

 

[EoinC]

Lim...the fight was won. We came...we saw....we conquered.....we realized their wasn't anything there worth anything....we left...:

You left? Why is my mate's son-in-law (a US Ranger) being posted to Afghanistan if you've already left? Perhaps you need to inform your military of this new schedule as they are apparently unaware.

...It's pretty simple....the conquering took about a week.

Tough customers those Afghans.

You took hold of Kabul and its surrounds. Time to pull out that old map of Afghanistan and tell us which areas you can claim to have 'secured'. 2/10's of buggerall if you look at the demographic spread. After the US was very quick to drop its MH allegiances when negotiations began with the Soviets, it failed to realise that its future in-Country allegiances would be of a similarly temporary nature. The enemy within?
These Afghani's are, indeed, "tough customers". You may need to speak with some of your own troops to get a clearer picture on who is walking into your 'shop'.
Are the Coalition forces prepared for the kind of resistance that finds 1,000,000 / 15,000 odds acceptable? Yes, I would call those people "tough customers", and I think our forces on the ground may also have some respect for their tenacity.

 

[limerickman]

We don't need to capture him to win....we need to render him ineffective.

$25 m dollar price tag - dead or alive.
That's what you president said.

No mention of ineffective.

That has been done....despite your assertions that he is still calling the shots....Lim.

Has it been done?
I expect the people of Bali would disagree with you Bill.
The people of Madrid would also disagree too.

But they don't count, eh, Bill?

I realize this is a difficult concept to grasp from a citizen of a country that is not relative to world affairs...but we understand it.

......and we understand your choosing to deny what is patently obvious.

I don't know if he is alive or dead. If he's alive...I suspect him to be living like a cockroach in a cave in the mountains somewhere.

So now you don't know if he's alive or dead.
And you still don't know where he is living too.

If he's dead....then we move on to the next bad guy on the list.

But you don't know if he's dead - so you can't move on.

Matter of opinion....Lim...Lim...Lim.

Indeed it is......Bill......Bill......Bill

The production has dropped because Bush is siphoning it off in the secret underwater tunnel that goes to Texas. EVERYONE knows this...apparently...except you...Lim.

production dropped Bill, cause the pipelines and their infrastructure are being attacked and because replacement of infrastructure cannot be completed for safety reasons in several provinces of Iraq, Bill.

Everyone knows this Bill, 'cept you...Bill.

What's to claim Lim.

.

I have never made any claims on behalf of my country.

However you've made a lot of erroneous claims on behalf of your country, Bill.

Not really. This has been about OBL...not my country. You keep trying to make it about my country because you have a hard on for Americans but that's ok...there are a lot of guys out there like you Lim.

Yeah really.

This is about OBL and his setting the agenda for your country's policymakers.

You've got the hard on, Bill.

Not really. I just learned to try and type as though I were talking to a 6 year old and suddenly it became easy Lim.

Six year old would be too advanced for you, Bill.

I agree...that and my highly accurate statement about Ireland mattering to the world about as much as a box of Cheerios.

'cept Bill you didn't make that comment about my country.

 

[stevebaby]

Lim...the fight was won. We came...we saw....we conquered.....we realized their wasn't anything there worth anything....we left.

It's pretty simple....the conquering took about a week.

Tough customers those Afghans.

The LA Times thinks differently,as do the experts on terrorism (mostly American) quoted in the following article.
Five years after the attack...and what security there is in the country only exists in Kabul and then only because of large numbers of American and USOF troops.The Taliban still control most of the South and East.Recruitment to their cause has grown ,it continues to grow and now extends to Iraq and many other theatres of conflict.As the Russians discovered,occupying Kabul is meaningless if the occupiers cannot move freely through the countryside.It's impossible to view the situation in Afghanistan without reference to the Vietnam invasion,where,despite American claims that they were winning...they were kicked out by a poorly armed but determined force of guerillas.
Before you sneer at the military capabilities and toughness of Afghans,you could perhaps read some of the many accounts by American Special Forces troops who trained,armed and supplied them...back in the days when they were "Heroic freedom-fighters resisting a foreign invader".
The military objectives of the US were to capture ObL (failed) and secure Unocal's pipeline (failed).Their political objective was to convince the world that military force could defeat terrorism,again,a failure. The US is not the first superpower to come to grief in Afghanistan.Britain,Russia,Persia...all vanquished.Even the descendants of Genghis Khan became muslims within two generations.
Anyone who believes that the US has "conquered" Afghanistan has clearly lost touch with reality.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-terror10sep10,0,1474097.story?page=1
Is the U.S. Winning This War? - Los Angeles Times

 

[limerickman]

No...maybe they are getting ready to attack Iran Lim, eh?

Bill - your country is bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan as it is.

 

[BillM]

You left? Why is my mate's son-in-law (a US Ranger) being posted to Afghanistan if you've already left? Perhaps you need to inform your military of this new schedule as they are apparently unaware.

We still have troops in Germany..but in effect....we left. This shouldn't be too hard to understand.

You took hold of Kabul and its surrounds. Time to pull out that old map of Afghanistan and tell us which areas you can claim to have 'secured'. 2/10's of buggerall if you look at the demographic spread. After the US was very quick to drop its MH allegiances when negotiations began with the Soviets, it failed to realise that its future in-Country allegiances would be of a similarly temporary nature. The enemy within?

We took control of whatever we wanted to take control of.

These Afghani's are, indeed, "tough customers". You may need to speak with some of your own troops to get a clearer picture on who is walking into your 'shop'.
Are the Coalition forces prepared for the kind of resistance that finds 1,000,000 / 15,000 odds acceptable?

Don't confuse tough with stupid. They are very different.

Yes, I would call those people "tough customers", and I think our forces on the ground may also have some respect for their tenacity.

You would...I can only assume that you aren't American then. We define tough quite differently apparently.

 

[limerickman]

I disagree with Americans not being good in a ground conflict. I think the USMC could and would go head to head with any fighting force in the world.
.

I disagree.

Since the Vietnam debacle - your country hasn't gone in on the ground in significant numbers in a major conflict to substantiate your statement.

If there is any kind of reputation there...it would be based on Vietnam. Our military is vastly superior and completely different now than then. What always hinders our ground activity is the political aspect at home. Many of our citizens think we can win a ground war with no casualties...and that is difficult to do.

.

Not difficult to do.
Ne'er on impossible to do.

We always try to measure our response, limit our casualties etc. Afghanistan is the perfect example...post 9/11 the average American would have supported any and all activity to capture OBL. We went into Afghanistan in force and with thunder. We went through this country in a few short weeks. A feat the vaunted Soviet Army couldn't accomplish in years.

Five years on - and the conflict still rages.

Now I will submit that Afghanistan is hardly a worth opponent however many on here appear to believe that they are the toughest fighting force in history...so using their logic....I guess that makes us the toughest kid on the block.

The US didn't go to war with Afghanistan, remember.

You went to war against the Taliban/Al Qaeda.

Of course, this situation "occupier/liberator" has now ensured that your country is mired in Afghanistan.

The motivation and tactics of our army is largely dependent on the political mood at home. If our country is mobilized behind a mission and in support....I will stand firm on the fact that their does not exist a military...including China...that could stand up to us.

Iraq contradicts ya.

 

[BillM]

$25 m dollar price tag - dead or alive.
That's what you president said.

No mention of ineffective.

Well that isn't as tasty of a soundbite is it Lim. Are you really this slow or do you just take this tact when it suits you?

Has it been done?
I expect the people of Bali would disagree with you Bill.
The people of Madrid would also disagree too.

But they don't count, eh, Bill?

Of course not. Nobody counts but America....the only thing we need is oil and someone to torture. Nothing else matters.

......and we understand your choosing to deny what is patently obvious.




So now you don't know if he's alive or dead.
And you still don't know where he is living too.

Wow...you still keep coming back to this. Sad...funny...but sad.

But you don't know if he's dead - so you can't move on.

We did move on genius.....we went to Iraq....don't you read the papers?

Indeed it is......Bill......Bill......Bill





production dropped Bill, cause the pipelines and their infrastructure are being attacked and because replacement of infrastructure cannot be completed for safety reasons in several provinces of Iraq, Bill.

Everyone knows this Bill, 'cept you...Bill.




I have never made any claims on behalf of my country.

However you've made a lot of erroneous claims on behalf of your country, Bill.





Yeah really.

This is about OBL and his setting the agenda for your country's policymakers.

You've got the hard on, Bill.







Six year old would be too advanced for you, Bill.



'cept Bill you didn't make that comment about my country.

Lim...my only goal was to prove that you have no argument other than to reverse what someone else posts...and use their name a lot.

That point is proven. Get some game and come back.

 

[BillM]

The LA Times thinks differently,as do the experts on terrorism (mostly American) quoted in the following article.
Five years after the attack...and what security there is in the country only exists in Kabul and then only because of large numbers of American and USOF troops.The Taliban still control most of the South and East.Recruitment to their cause has grown ,it continues to grow and now extends to Iraq and many other theatres of conflict.As the Russians discovered,occupying Kabul is meaningless if the occupiers cannot move freely through the countryside.It's impossible to view the situation in Afghanistan without reference to the Vietnam invasion,where,despite American claims that they were winning...they were kicked out by a poorly armed but determined force of guerillas.
Before you sneer at the military capabilities and toughness of Afghans,you could perhaps read some of the many accounts by American Special Forces troops who trained,armed and supplied them...back in the days when they were "Heroic freedom-fighters resisting a foreign invader".
The military objectives of the US were to capture ObL (failed) and secure Unocal's pipeline (failed).Their political objective was to convince the world that military force could defeat terrorism,again,a failure. The US is not the first superpower to come to grief in Afghanistan.Britain,Russia,Persia...all vanquished.Even the descendants of Genghis Khan became muslims within two generations.
Anyone who believes that the US has "conquered" Afghanistan has clearly lost touch with reality.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-terror10sep10,0,1474097.story?page=1
Is the U.S. Winning This War? - Los Angeles Times

The LA times is what you use as your evidence?

That says it all matey.

 

[BillM]

I disagree.

Wow..big shock.

Since the Vietnam debacle - your country hasn't gone in on the ground in significant numbers in a major conflict to substantiate your statement.

Significant numbers? What defines significant numbers in your mind?

The first time they were supposedly a formidable fighting force and we were going to incur tens of thousands of casualties....so said the spineless.

What'd that take...two weeks?

Not difficult to do.
Ne'er on impossible to do.

This makes no sense...big shock there.

Five years on - and the conflict still rages.

Not really. The only reason a conflict still exists is because the spineless of our country will not let the military simply complete the mission.

Kill the unruly.....leave the rest....suck the oil dry...and leave....at least we leave right after we torture everyone left standing.

The US didn't go to war with Afghanistan, remember.

You went to war against the Taliban/Al Qaeda.

As long as you keep using ridiculously stupid arguments like this....you will continue to be ridiculously stupid.

The Taliban was Afghanistan.

Of course, this situation "occupier/liberator" has now ensured that your country is mired in Afghanistan.

We aren't mired. Afghanistan is barely an afterthought in our country. It appears to occupy a lot of your thinking as big a deal as you are making of it...but to us....Afghanistan is over.

Iraq contradicts ya.

No...like I said...if our country would unite behind the cause....it's game over for anyone. Period.

 

[EoinC]

We still have troops in Germany..but in effect....we left. This shouldn't be too hard to understand.


We took control of whatever we wanted to take control of.


Don't confuse tough with stupid. They are very different.


You would...I can only assume that you aren't American then. We define tough quite differently apparently.

I was in the NWP and Afghanistan with Americans in 1990. They also considered the tribal people to be "tough". So tough, in fact, that, when 'Desert Storm' happened, the US Embassy in Islamabad advised all US personnel to leave, which my co-workers did in the middle of the night, without letting us (Kiwi's and Aussies) know. They figured that the "tough customers" of Afghanistan and the NWP may get upset and exhibit some of that behaviour for which they are so well known.
I have worked in many Countries around the World, often with Americans, some of whom remain my best friends. I definitely do not consider myself to be anti-American, and hope that I would not be perceived as such. Without question, the toughest people I have ever met were the people of the NWP and Afghanistan.
Let me know your experiences with these people, Bill, so that I have something to gauge your idea of their ineptitude with.

 

[limerickman]

Well that isn't as tasty of a soundbite is it Lim. Are you really this slow or do you just take this tact when it suits you?

You president said $25m - dead or alive.

No mention of ineffective, Bill.

Of course not. Nobody counts but America....the only thing we need is oil and someone to torture. Nothing else matters.

Bali and Madrid were carried out by Binladen.

You said that he was rendered ineffective.

We did move on genius.....we went to Iraq....don't you read the papers?

.

But you're still in Afghanistan - since 2001.
Funny notion of "winning", eh, Bill?

Lim...my only goal was to prove that you have no argument other than to reverse what someone else posts...and use their name a lot.

Bill....you made some remarks about your country calling the shots.
I dispute that idea.

No one is reversing your posts.

That point is proven. Get some game and come back.

You haven't proven anything.

Plenty of game Bill and plenty of discussion as to how someone can claim that their country is calling the shots when it's apparent that for the past five years, your country hasn't been calling the shots - it's been led.

 

[stevebaby]

I disagree with Americans not being good in a ground conflict. I think the USMC could and would go head to head with any fighting force in the world.

If there is any kind of reputation there...it would be based on Vietnam. Our military is vastly superior and completely different now than then. What always hinders our ground activity is the political aspect at home. Many of our citizens think we can win a ground war with no casualties...and that is difficult to do.

We always try to measure our response, limit our casualties etc. Afghanistan is the perfect example...post 9/11 the average American would have supported any and all activity to capture OBL. We went into Afghanistan in force and with thunder. We went through this country in a few short weeks. A feat the vaunted Soviet Army couldn't accomplish in years.

Now I will submit that Afghanistan is hardly a worth opponent however many on here appear to believe that they are the toughest fighting force in history...so using their logic....I guess that makes us the toughest kid on the block.

The motivation and tactics of our army is largely dependent on the political mood at home. If our country is mobilized behind a mission and in support....I will stand firm on the fact that their does not exist a military...including China...that could stand up to us. Technology is obviously a part of that...however that has been a part of any conflict since the days of the spear.

When has the US ever fought an enemy of equal size?
Never.
When has the US ever defeated an enemy of equal size?
Obviously,never.
Even one of the poorest countries in Asia (Vietnam) managed to defeat the US.
The underlying flaws of the US Empire are the belief that everything American is the best and that everybody in the rest of the world will believe this ******** as well.
That fatal hubris will be the cause of the downfall of the American Empire.

 

[limerickman]

Significant numbers? What defines significant numbers in your mind?

A significant number would be 200k+

The first time they were supposedly a formidable fighting force and we were going to incur tens of thousands of casualties....so said the spineless.

That's why you're still there, Bill.
Spineless.

What'd that take...two weeks?

5 years and 2 weeks perhaps.
This is 2006 and you're still mired there.

Not really. The only reason a conflict still exists is because the spineless of our country will not let the military simply complete the mission.
.

You could always start a civil war - in your own country for a change.
Kill two birds with the one stone.

Kill the unruly.....leave the rest....suck the oil dry...and leave....at least we leave right after we torture everyone left standing.

Imperialism.
You said it.

As long as you keep using ridiculously stupid arguments like this....you will continue to be ridiculously stupid.

The Taliban was Afghanistan.

I recall your country's president saying that your country had no conflict with the Afghan people.
The dispute was with the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Do you call your president stupid also?

We aren't mired. Afghanistan is barely an afterthought in our country. It appears to occupy a lot of your thinking as big a deal as you are making of it...but to us....Afghanistan is over.

You tell that to the family of the US soldiers who were blown to pieces in Kabul last week.
The British families of soldiers who died last week over there - would agree that it's an afterthought.

Afghanistan ain't over.

No...like I said...if our country would unite behind the cause....it's game over for anyone. Period.

OK - go and kill your fellow spineless Americans who aren't uniting behind "our boys".
After all they're holding your country back, eh?

 

[stevebaby]

The cost of the war in Afghanistan alone...$US 89 Billion.Not counting the cost of the GWOT (Global War on Truth).
The cost to Al-Quaeda to bring down the Twin Towers...maybe $US 300,000.

I've just read an account by a journalist who reported that Australian SAS troops in Afghanistan were astonished that US Special Forces were supplied with hot meals by chopper.
The US is complaining that ISOF is not supplying enough helicopters for the war.
Are they worried that their ice-cream will melt?

 

[BillM]

I was in the NWP and Afghanistan with Americans in 1990. They also considered the tribal people to be "tough". So tough, in fact, that, when 'Desert Storm' happened, the US Embassy in Islamabad advised all US personnel to leave, which my co-workers did in the middle of the night, without letting us (Kiwi's and Aussies) know. They figured that the "tough customers" of Afghanistan and the NWP may get upset and exhibit some of that behaviour for which they are so well known.
I have worked in many Countries around the World, often with Americans, some of whom remain my best friends. I definitely do not consider myself to be anti-American, and hope that I would not be perceived as such. Without question, the toughest people I have ever met were the people of the NWP and Afghanistan.
Let me know your experiences with these people, Bill, so that I have something to gauge your idea of their ineptitude with.

Eoin...I don't consider you anti-American and I hope you realize that most of my comments are made to highlight some of the ridiculous stereotypes of Americans that are had by Limerick and a few others.

Regardless of the topic...America will be to blame or at fault somehow. We could save an orphan from a welll and be accused of not doing it quickly enough.

It gets old.....so I decided to play.