What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting)

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

>Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that
>question. "LG's web site is designed to
>appeal to elitism."

So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as use
of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and the
people they appeal too?
--
JT
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[[email protected]]

John Forrest Tomlinson writes:

>> Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question. "LG's
>> web site is designed to appeal to elitism."

> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as
> use of special plug-ins?

Look it up:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/elitism

> Or are you talking about the images and the people they appeal too?

Neither.

I agree with Michael in that the ads appeal to people who wish to
project an image of someone they are not, but would like to be. But
then we have experienced creeping gradualism in that respect so that
today few people are aware of cargo pants, Ray Charles glasses (even
after dusk), aerodynamic spoilers on all sorts of cars, dual and
quadruple chromed and rumbling exhaust pipes and a slew of other
features one can display in public to appear like someone they want
others to believe they are.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

> Elitism is the feeling that one is a better person than another.

That is an overly broad definition that flies on the face of the reality
that some people *are* better than others. Some people have talents
beyond the those of others- for example, Joe Pass was a better guitarist
than I will ever be. Some people are among the elite.

The problem is not that some people are better than others, but what is
made of that difference. Elitism is better described as "the advocacy
or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society"
and "the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves
as belonging to an elite."

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On 22 Oct 2006 21:30:36 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>I agree with Michael in that the ads appeal to people who wish to
>project an image of someone they are not, but would like to be.

Gee, considering I ride with people all the time who dress like that
me and my friends must be very shallow. Who are we trying to look
like?
--
JT
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[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that
> >question. "LG's web site is designed to
> >appeal to elitism."
>
> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as use
> of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and the
> people they appeal too?

The former. I am talking about the feelings that the
site appeals to in me. The feelings of being special
and part of the inner circle. The smooth slide show,
the pictures of the intense riders. I think they should
fix it, make it more like a catalogue. A similar appeal
is made by Rivendell Bicycles.

--
Michael Press

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Elitism is the feeling that one is a better person than another.
>
> That is an overly broad definition that flies on the face of the reality
> that some people *are* better than others. Some people have talents
> beyond the those of others- for example, Joe Pass was a better guitarist
> than I will ever be. Some people are among the elite.
>
> The problem is not that some people are better than others, but what is
> made of that difference. Elitism is better described as "the advocacy
> or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society"
> and "the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves
> as belonging to an elite."

I stand by my simplistic definition. I intentionally
spoke of _feeling_ that one is a better person than
someone else, and acting on that feeling.

And why do you want to get into the fine details of
determining who is better at some particular activity?
It is the slippery slope.

--
Michael Press

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article
><[email protected]>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that
>> >question. "LG's web site is designed to
>> >appeal to elitism."
>>
>> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as use
>> of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and the
>> people they appeal too?
>
>The former. I am talking about the feelings that the
>site appeals to in me. The feelings of being special
>and part of the inner circle. The smooth slide show,
>the pictures of the intense riders. I think they should
>fix it, make it more like a catalogue. A similar appeal
>is made by Rivendell Bicycles.

LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from
them, but that whole Rivendell marketing is such a contrived bit of
"anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of
rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship.

When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's taking
people for a ride.

--
JT
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[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question. "LG's
> >> >web site is designed to appeal to elitism."
> >>
> >> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as
> >> use of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and
> >> the people they appeal too?
> >
> >The former. I am talking about the feelings that the site appeals to
> >in me. The feelings of being special and part of the inner circle.
> >The smooth slide show, the pictures of the intense riders. I think
> >they should fix it, make it more like a catalogue. A similar appeal
> >is made by Rivendell Bicycles.

You see Rivendell as elitist, you mean? Is there a difference between
"elitist" and "high end?" If elitism is bad, should we all be riding
PX-10s?

> LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from
> them, but that whole Rivendell marketing is such a contrived bit of
> "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of
> rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship.

I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related
values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products or
similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for
example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They all
have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires.

The people I have talked to who have been to Rivendell and talked to
Grant and the rest of the crew have found them genuine and down to
earth. I've never been there so I can't comment. I've talked with
Grant on the phone, he seemed like a nice guy. In more than 10 years of
doing business with Rivendell, I've never had a complaint (except that
their Web site is horribly out of date).

> When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's taking
> people for a ride.

What's wrong with a lugged stem? It's a nice looking piece of bike
stuff. It's not exactly an essential thing, other stems look fine and
work fine (I use Nitto Technomic Deluxes on my bikes). Heck, there's
even a lugged threadless stem.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Elitism is the feeling that one is a better person than another.
> >
> > That is an overly broad definition that flies on the face of the
> > reality that some people *are* better than others. Some people
> > have talents beyond the those of others- for example, Joe Pass was
> > a better guitarist than I will ever be. Some people are among the
> > elite.
> >
> > The problem is not that some people are better than others, but
> > what is made of that difference. Elitism is better described as
> > "the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a
> > system or society" and "the attitude or behavior of a person or
> > group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite."
>
> I stand by my simplistic definition. I intentionally spoke of
> _feeling_ that one is a better person than someone else, and acting
> on that feeling.

'Sup to you.

> And why do you want to get into the fine details of determining who
> is better at some particular activity? It is the slippery slope.

Life is a slippery slope.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:26:21 -0500, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]> wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>> LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from
>> them, but that whole Rivendell marketing is such a contrived bit of
>> "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of
>> rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship.
>
>I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related
>values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products or
>similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for
>example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They all
>have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires.
>
>The people I have talked to who have been to Rivendell and talked to
>Grant and the rest of the crew have found them genuine and down to
>earth. I've never been there so I can't comment. I've talked with
>Grant on the phone, he seemed like a nice guy. In more than 10 years of
>doing business with Rivendell, I've never had a complaint (except that
>their Web site is horribly out of date).
>
>> When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's taking
>> people for a ride.

>What's wrong with a lugged stem?

Nothing wrong with big tires and simple bikes (I've got a steel bike
with 28s that I rode yesterday). But when you start matching
technology that's associated with old stuff (like lugs) with uses that
are contrived (stems) it's fake if it's marketed as simplicity. Or
it's just artistry and decoration/fluff, the same way some "aero"
components that get derided.

>It's a nice looking piece of bike
>stuff. It's not exactly an essential thing, other stems look fine and
>work fine (I use Nitto Technomic Deluxes on my bikes). Heck, there's
>even a lugged threadless stem.

IF lugs stems were cheap to make and cheap to buy I'd have no problem
with them. But they're an answer in search of a question.

--
JT
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[G.T.]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:26:21 -0500, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>>> LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from
>>> them, but that whole Rivendell marketing is such a contrived bit of
>>> "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of
>>> rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship.
>> I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related
>> values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products or
>> similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for
>> example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They all
>> have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires.
>>
>> The people I have talked to who have been to Rivendell and talked to
>> Grant and the rest of the crew have found them genuine and down to
>> earth. I've never been there so I can't comment. I've talked with
>> Grant on the phone, he seemed like a nice guy. In more than 10 years of
>> doing business with Rivendell, I've never had a complaint (except that
>> their Web site is horribly out of date).
>>
>>> When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's taking
>>> people for a ride.
>
>> What's wrong with a lugged stem?
>
> Nothing wrong with big tires and simple bikes (I've got a steel bike
> with 28s that I rode yesterday). But when you start matching
> technology that's associated with old stuff (like lugs) with uses that
> are contrived (stems) it's fake if it's marketed as simplicity. Or
> it's just artistry and decoration/fluff, the same way some "aero"
> components that get derided.

Exactly.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:26:21 -0500, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff
> >> from them, but that whole Rivendell marketing is such a contrived
> >> bit of "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain
> >> type of rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate
> >> craftsmanship.
> >
> >I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related
> >values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products
> >or similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for
> >example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They
> >all have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires.
> >
> >The people I have talked to who have been to Rivendell and talked to
> >Grant and the rest of the crew have found them genuine and down to
> >earth. I've never been there so I can't comment. I've talked with
> >Grant on the phone, he seemed like a nice guy. In more than 10
> >years of doing business with Rivendell, I've never had a complaint
> >(except that their Web site is horribly out of date).
> >
> >> When he started writing about the lugged stem I realized he's
> >> taking people for a ride.
>
> >What's wrong with a lugged stem?
>
> Nothing wrong with big tires and simple bikes (I've got a steel bike
> with 28s that I rode yesterday). But when you start matching
> technology that's associated with old stuff (like lugs) with uses
> that are contrived (stems) it's fake if it's marketed as simplicity.
> Or it's just artistry and decoration/fluff, the same way some "aero"
> components that get derided.

I think Grant would admit that the lugged stem is purely for aesthetics.
It might not match your sense of aesthetics (or mine- I haven't bought
one; it seems like "too much") and that's fine. But I know people who
have bought them and like them. I figure they are the ones who have to
look at it while they ride, and there's something nice about looking
down at a bike that is aesthetically pleasing.

> >It's a nice looking piece of bike stuff. It's not exactly an
> >essential thing, other stems look fine and work fine (I use Nitto
> >Technomic Deluxes on my bikes). Heck, there's even a lugged
> >threadless stem.
>
> IF lugs stems were cheap to make and cheap to buy I'd have no problem
> with them. But they're an answer in search of a question.

From a technical perspective (e.g., as a means of attaching your
handlebars to the steerer tube) I agree with you. The lugged stem is
about aesthetics, not mechanical properties. Personally I prefer the
looks of the Alex Singer fillet brazed stems.

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >In article <[email protected]>,
> > > John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question. "LG's
> > >> >web site is designed to appeal to elitism."
> > >>
> > >> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such as
> > >> use of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the images and
> > >> the people they appeal too?
> > >
> > >The former. I am talking about the feelings that the site appeals to
> > >in me. The feelings of being special and part of the inner circle.
> > >The smooth slide show, the pictures of the intense riders. I think
> > >they should fix it, make it more like a catalogue. A similar appeal
> > >is made by Rivendell Bicycles.
>
> You see Rivendell as elitist, you mean? Is there a difference between
> "elitist" and "high end?" If elitism is bad, should we all be riding
> PX-10s?

To be accurate and precise, not what I am saying. I say
they attempt to elicit feelings of elitism. Riding good
equipment does not prove elitism.

> > LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff from
> > them, but that whole Rivendell marketing is such a contrived bit of
> > "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain type of
> > rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate craftsmanship.
>
> I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related
> values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their products or
> similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting bike, for
> example, and all my bikes currently have down tube shifting. They all
> have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires.

Actually, my bikes are like that. But, just because a
choice is technically sound and suits the rider's style
does not mean the choice is or is not supported by
other feelings. I am intentionally not talking about
any real or hypothetical riders choices and reasons,
but about advertising styles.

[...]

--
Michael Press

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >In article <[email protected]>,
> > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question.
> > > >> >"LG's web site is designed to appeal to elitism."
> > > >>
> > > >> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such
> > > >> as use of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the
> > > >> images and the people they appeal too?
> > > >
> > > >The former. I am talking about the feelings that the site
> > > >appeals to in me. The feelings of being special and part of the
> > > >inner circle. The smooth slide show, the pictures of the intense
> > > >riders. I think they should fix it, make it more like a
> > > >catalogue. A similar appeal is made by Rivendell Bicycles.
> >
> > You see Rivendell as elitist, you mean? Is there a difference
> > between "elitist" and "high end?" If elitism is bad, should we all
> > be riding PX-10s?
>
> To be accurate and precise, not what I am saying. I say they attempt
> to elicit feelings of elitism. Riding good equipment does not prove
> elitism.
>
> > > LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff
> > > from them, but that whole Rivendell marketing is such a contrived
> > > bit of "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain
> > > type of rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate
> > > craftsmanship.
> >
> > I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related
> > values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their
> > products or similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting
> > bike, for example, and all my bikes currently have down tube
> > shifting. They all have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires.
>
> Actually, my bikes are like that. But, just because a choice is
> technically sound and suits the rider's style does not mean the
> choice is or is not supported by other feelings. I am intentionally
> not talking about any real or hypothetical riders choices and
> reasons, but about advertising styles.

And making a subjective judgment that you appear to think is objective.

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:02:04 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >In article <[email protected]>,
> > > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:13 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >Had you read what I wrote, you would not ask that question.
> > > > >> >"LG's web site is designed to appeal to elitism."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So you're talking about the site technology and layout -- such
> > > > >> as use of special plug-ins? Or are you talking about the
> > > > >> images and the people they appeal too?
> > > > >
> > > > >The former. I am talking about the feelings that the site
> > > > >appeals to in me. The feelings of being special and part of the
> > > > >inner circle. The smooth slide show, the pictures of the intense
> > > > >riders. I think they should fix it, make it more like a
> > > > >catalogue. A similar appeal is made by Rivendell Bicycles.
> > >
> > > You see Rivendell as elitist, you mean? Is there a difference
> > > between "elitist" and "high end?" If elitism is bad, should we all
> > > be riding PX-10s?
> >
> > To be accurate and precise, not what I am saying. I say they attempt
> > to elicit feelings of elitism. Riding good equipment does not prove
> > elitism.
> >
> > > > LOL. I used to get the Rivendell catalog and have bought stuff
> > > > from them, but that whole Rivendell marketing is such a contrived
> > > > bit of "anti-fashion" that seems to really work well on a certain
> > > > type of rider. Oh yeah, I'm a "manual" rider and I appreciate
> > > > craftsmanship.
> > >
> > > I dunno if it's contrived or not. Many of Rivendell's bike-related
> > > values match my own, and hence I use a fair number of their
> > > products or similar type products. I don't own an indexed-shifting
> > > bike, for example, and all my bikes currently have down tube
> > > shifting. They all have steel frames. I like 700 x 28 tires.
> >
> > Actually, my bikes are like that. But, just because a choice is
> > technically sound and suits the rider's style does not mean the
> > choice is or is not supported by other feelings. I am intentionally
> > not talking about any real or hypothetical riders choices and
> > reasons, but about advertising styles.
>
> And making a subjective judgment that you appear to think is objective.

You speak of my judgments on advertising campaigns?
These campaigns are designed to elicit feelings. What I
feel is subjective. When I note the feeling, that is
objective. When the campaign successfully elicits the
same feelings in a multitude of people, is that not
objective?

--
Michael Press

 

[ship]

Don

> Possibly real science as touched on here
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_perception

Which bit in particular?


> > But I'm telling you I can SEE that it's red!! And not because I KNOW
> > it's red either.
> > I just tried the experiment again with a white and a red cateye LED
> > light and I shuffled
> > them around and I can still EASILY tell you which is which even in the
> > corner
> > of the eye.
> >
> > Nothing beats a bit of 1st hand empirical experiment!
>
> I look forward to seeing your full report. I am particularly interested in:
>
> 1. sample size
One

> 2. use of randomising to select the colour to appear
Like I say I have two identically shaped LED bike lights which
I shuffle well with my eyes closed. I put one on top of the other
place in just out of sided and turn them both on.
I then bring into peripheral vision and the question I ask myself
is this: is the red on top of the white or the other way round.
And I wcan SEE the answer with 100% certainty.
And I was right 10 times out of 10.
Case closed.

> 3. was the coloured light introduced from the front of vision of from
> the rear?
No (see above)

> 4. what controls were in place to ensure the subjects head was immobilised
None
But I am intelligent enough to know when I've moved my head more than
1 mm

> 5. what controls were in place to ensure the subject did not move their eyes
Will-power

> 6. effect of environment
None

> 7. control group data
None.

> It would help if you could get a few people with a scientific background
> to do a peer review.

Probably.

Yes, yes, yes scientifically these questions are valid.

But sometimes the evidence is so BLINDINGLY obvious that you
just have to try it out for yourself - irrespective of what dogma you
have read in however many textbooks.

Still dont believe me?
Still refuse to try the experiment for yourself.

Sorry to upset your cosy little world-order view of the world
but you are starting to enter the realms of philosophical doubt!

Look, although I have no idea whether anyone else is wired up like me
I'll bet you GBP 1000.00 that I can see red out of the corner
of both my eyes.

I know it as certainly as I know that I exist.


Ship

 

[ship]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:55:51 +0100, "Pete Biggs"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Peter Clinch wrote:
> >> ship wrote:
> >>> Btw, I've often wondered about string-type construction vests - they
> >>> may look cr*p but
> >>> they would presumably:
> >>> - keep the bulk of the wet clothing off your skin
> >>> - offer quite a lot of insulation with used little ventilation
> >>> - but minimal insulation when used with lots of ventilation
> >>
> >> Main problem is where will you find them made in other than cotton?
> >
> >From a bike shop that sells Briko clothing. The Briko Mesh vest is like a
> >traditional string vest except it's made of soft Coolmax polyester.
>
> Santini sells one too. And you can get long- and short-sleeved shirts
> of polypropylne from Super Brynje.
>
> http://www.reliableracing.com/detail.cfm?edp=10120533&category=0400

Polypropylene vs Polyester vs Nylon
What's the difference in terms of how they absorb/wick/repel
water? Anyone know?


Ship

 

[Peter Clinch]

ship wrote:

> Polypropylene vs Polyester vs Nylon
> What's the difference in terms of how they absorb/wick/repel
> water? Anyone know?

Not a question with a simple answer: just as there's a lot of difference
between coarse "normal" wool and superfine merino wool, all nylons (or
all polyesters or all polypros) are *not* created equal. The basic
yarns will differ and the weaving processes will also generate vastly
different performances as the gross structure of a fabric will influence
how it works to a great extent, as will the cut and proximity to your
body. Also, surface treatments will influence performance to some degree.

What I'd suggest is to concentrate on comfort against your own skin as a
priority, and have a selection of base layers for different conditions.
I variously use about 8 different base layer garments, all of which I
like for various different reasons which include cut and fit as well as
material.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[ship]

> > Polypropylene vs Polyester vs Nylon
> > What's the difference in terms of how they absorb/wick/repel
> > water? Anyone know?
>
> Not a question with a simple answer: just as there's a lot of difference
> between coarse "normal" wool and superfine merino wool, all nylons (or
> all polyesters or all polypros) are *not* created equal. The basic
> yarns will differ and the weaving processes will also generate vastly
> different performances as the gross structure of a fabric will influence
> how it works to a great extent, as will the cut and proximity to your
> body. Also, surface treatments will influence performance to some degree.
>
> What I'd suggest is to concentrate on comfort against your own skin as a
> priority, and have a selection of base layers for different conditions.
> I variously use about 8 different base layer garments, all of which I
> like for various different reasons which include cut and fit as well as
> material.

Drat... so are none of the basic materials more hydrophobic or
more hydrophilic?

Ship

 

[Peter Clinch]

ship wrote:

> Drat... so are none of the basic materials more hydrophobic or
> more hydrophilic?

AFAICT not to the point where there isn't a clear overlap between
different fibres of different base material. The exact grade of fibre,
construction of the garment and weave of the cloth (plus any treatments
added) will have more influence on the end result, I think.

Also, "hydrophobic" and "hydrophilic" are not necessarily good or bad of
themselves. How the garment is designed to use those factors will
influence what it's good and bad for. For example, "wicking" is
generally held to be a Good Thing, and you might think that a wicking
lining in a breathable waterproof would clearly be a good idea... but if
it gets wet from seepage into the cuffs and neck then it does a really
efficient job of wicking that water /all over the inside of the jacket/,
which actually isn't too useful... (guess how I learned that!).

Base layers are doing a complex job and it's often down to finding the
right spot to draw your compromises, but those "right spots" will be in
different places for different people doing different things. It would
be nice if we could say "X is a better fabric for these things because
Y, period", but sadly it isn't that simple.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/