Which will it be Iran? Off the Map/back to

[Carrera]

"Canaanite and the Jews were separate tribes. Read the OT : it states that the Jews and Canaanites were separate tribes."

The Canaanites and Hebrews were different to some extent so I never said Hebrews were the absolute first to inhabit the Holy Land. The Canaanites were the oldest semitic people there and the Patriarchs came later.
So, if you wish to stress Canaanites and Hebrews were different, that's fine by me. Such are the facts of history. Another fact of history you might be glad to hear is Abraham originally came from Ur which is in Iraq. Job was also none Jewish.
No historian argues such thing as a totally exclusive culture or race. Neither do Jewish academics who are quite aware of these issues.

"Not all Palestinians are Muslims.In fact, Palestine (and Palestines) were regarded as being secular.You generalise a lot - to try to support your revisionism."

It seems pretty logical to me to deduce that Palestinian extremists seek the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic Jerusalem on the basis of Islamic culture that they maintain is older than Jewish or Canaanite.
The problem isn't whether or not Palestinians might be Christian or Moslem but the fact a large number of Palestinians simply aspire to push Jews and Jewish culture out.

"The people who lived in the territory now called Israel, were/are entitled to that land from which they were ethnically cleansed by Jewish terrorists."

Yes, this is a valid point and I already made it clear the Palestinians have rights. They are entitled to territory of their own and that's fine by me. It's also fine by Israel and the U.S.A. However, I think Palestinians should be left to get on with it in their own territory unless they themselves can eradicate their own terrorist groups.

"A substantial amount of the non-Jewish population of Israel are effectively excluded from the rights enjoyed by Israeli Jews."

If Palestinians kidnap foreigners, make threats, fire rockets and blow up civilians on buses or in cafes they should be socially excluded not just from Israel but Europe as well. I agree with Vladimir Putin on that one - fundamentalist terrorists shouldn't be tolerated in any way.
So-called gentiles aren't excluded from Israel. What happens is security has become very tight due to extremist groups such as Hamas who talk about destroying Israel from within (see my earlier post).
Their plan is to be assimilated into cities so they can kill and maim without any barrier or wall to prevent them.

Canaanite and the Jews were separate tribes.
Read the OT : it states that the Jews and Canaanites were separate tribes.




This is at best a generalisation : not all Palestinians are Muslims.
In fact, Palestine (and Palestines) were regarded as being secular.
You generalise a lot - to try to support your revisionism.




this is irrelevant.

The people who lived in the territory now called Israel, were/are entitled to that land from which they were ethnically cleansed by Jewish terrorists.

To ignore this is revisionism.
Then again, you're revisionist.




That's correct - but you suggested earlier that Jews are 100% genetically "pure".




This is another lie.

All non-Jews are regarded as referred to as gentiles by Jews.

A substantial amount of the non-Jewish population of Israel are effectively excluded from the rights enjoyed by Israeli Jews.



No one suggested that they were the same in absolute terms.
What has been suggested and what is correct is that neither grouping is mutually exclusive in genetic terms.
A point that you fail to understand and a point which you choose to ignore.

 

[limerickman]

The Canaanites and Hebrews were different to some extent so I never said Hebrews were the absolute first to inhabit the Holy Land. The Canaanites were the oldest semitic people there and the Patriarchs came later.
So, if you wish to stress Canaanites and Hebrews were different, that's fine by me. Such are the facts of history. Another fact of history you might be glad to hear is Abraham originally came from Ur which is in Iraq. Job was also none Jewish.
No historian argues such thing as a totally exclusive culture or race. Neither do Jewish academics who are quite aware of these issues.
.

But you invoke the Jewish premise that the Bible states that their birthright entitles them to displace the native people of a territory in 1948 - to establish a country called Israel as specified in the OT.
"Time in memorial".
That's what the Zionists say to try to justify 1948.

Now that you have accepted that there were non-Jews on that territory prior
to the arrival of the Jewish people, surely that fact scuppers the Zionists claim of "time in memorial"?

Curious that you mention Ur : Pope John Paul II was actually invited to Ur by Saddam Hussein when the Pope announced his tour of the Holy Land in 2000.

The Americans and the Israeli's asked the Pope not to accept Husseins invitation with the threat that they (Israel) would withdraw the invitation to John Paul to visit Jerusalem as part of the same pilgrimage.

Yes, this is a valid point and I already made it clear the Palestinians have rights. They are entitled to territory of their own and that's fine by me. It's also fine by Israel and the U.S.A. However, I think Palestinians should be left to get on with it in their own territory unless they themselves can eradicate their own terrorist groups.

They're entitled to the land that they had until 1948 when Jewish terrorists
ethnically cleansed them from that land.
To say that they're entitled to land of their own is disingenuous and irrelevant.
They're entitled to the land occupied since 1948 by the Israeli Zionists.

If Palestinians kidnap foreigners, make threats, fire rockets and blow up civilians on buses or in cafes they should be socially excluded not just from Israel but Europe as well. I agree with Vladimir Putin on that one - fundamentalist terrorists shouldn't be tolerated in any way.
So-called gentiles aren't excluded from Israel. What happens is security has become very tight due to extremist groups such as Hamas who talk about destroying Israel from within (see my earlier post).
Their plan is to be assimilated into cities so they can kill and maim without any barrier or wall to prevent them.

I was referring to Arab-Israeli's who do not enjoy the same entitlement as other citizens within Israel.
You're an expert on Israel but you don't appear to have heard about the demarcation that exists between Arab-Israeli's and Zionist Israeli's on citizens rights.

In relation to Palestinians - they're not citizens of Israel as Israel rejects Palestinians.
needless to say they're oppressed by the Israeli occupiers who stole their land in 1948.

Google the Arab-Israeli's and see the disparity that exists regarding their rights compared to other citizens if Israel.
Obviously you missed the lecture at university that day.

 

[darkboong]

Jews don't exclude gentiles from Israel at all.

Wrong, they do. The Palestinians are Gentiles, they are excluded.

Israel's state policy *discriminates* against the people within it's borders simply on the basis of both race *and* creed. For example Gentile inhabitants of Jerusalem were issued residency permits rather than full citizenship, EVEN IF they lived there before the state of Israel even existed. Those permits are issued on the basis of their ethnicity and creed, Jews were accorded full citizenship.

People who carry those permits are refused re-entry into Jerusalem should they leave. That is discrimination at the most basic level. They can not travel freely or hold land within the country they were born and raised in. They didn't choose to opt out, they have been explicitly excluded from Israeli
citizenship on the basis of their creed.

That is but one of the many examples of the Ethnic Cleansing in action as we speak.

 

[limerickman]

Wrong, they do. The Palestinians are Gentiles, they are excluded.

Israel's state policy *discriminates* against the people within it's borders simply on the basis of both race *and* creed. For example Gentile inhabitants of Jerusalem were issued residency permits rather than full citizenship, EVEN IF they lived there before the state of Israel even existed. Those permits are issued on the basis of their ethnicity and creed, Jews were accorded full citizenship.

People who carry those permits are refused re-entry into Jerusalem should they leave. That is discrimination at the most basic level. They can not travel freely or hold land within the country they were born and raised in. They didn't choose to opt out, they have been explicitly excluded from Israeli
citizenship on the basis of their creed.

That is but one of the many examples of the Ethnic Cleansing in action as we speak.

He makes statements about issues upon which he hasn't the first clue.

And he's got the arrogance to try to suggest that others here don't know what they're talking about.

I think he's a chancer.

 

[darkboong]

I think he's a chancer.

I think that he is a racist scumbag who wants every last Muslim wiped off the face of the Earth, and he is playing his small part in making that so. He claims otherwise, but he consistently justifies, ignores or excuses the murder of Muslims.

Perhaps I am being somewhat hysterical, but it bothers the hell out of me that you can substitute Judaism for Islam and Muslim for Jew and you really can't see much difference between what he says and what ******'s lumpenproles said in the run up to Kristalnacht. The horrible irony of it is that he is getting that from a British National Newspaper and a Zionist professional editorial writer.

Recall his repeated attempts to insinuate that Islam was 'backward' because he couldn't name a single Muslim scientist ? ...

 

[Carrera]

"They're entitled to the land that they had until 1948 when Jewish terrorists
ethnically cleansed them from that land.To say that they're entitled to land of their own is disingenuous and irrelevant.They're entitled to the land occupied since 1948 by the Israeli Zionists."

I'm sorry but they're not entitled to anything except a state of their own, (outside of Jewish residential areas). If these people (Hamas and company) are capable of kidnapping Kate Burton who came full of lofty desires to help the Palestinian cause, heaven knows what they would do once inside Jerusalem. Let's remember Hamas threatened to attack Israel from within. What do you imagine that means? Got it in one, sell the media a sob story till Israelis relent and let a whole bunch of masked suicide bombers inside Jerusalem. Forget it.
And the same goes for Chechnyans who would love to form more cells within Moscow but the fact is Moscow police stop and search every day at the point of a gun. And U.K. police apparently prevented 5 more attacks by taking security measures.
You and Darkboong are confusing the concept of gentiles with terrorists. No city or country is obligated to allow a potential threat to security within their residential areas. I myself would be welcome in Israel and I'm not Jewish either or even religious.
To be honest with you, the more I hear the more it seems the Palestinians are going to blow their chances and lose the support they have from some sympathetic ears. The U.K. foreign office is now warning U.K. nationals not to go to Gaza, declaring it unsafe. Again, who is to blame for that?

But you invoke the Jewish premise that the Bible states that their birthright entitles them to displace the native people of a territory in 1948 - to establish a country called Israel as specified in the OT.
"Time in memorial".
That's what the Zionists say to try to justify 1948.

Now that you have accepted that there were non-Jews on that territory prior
to the arrival of the Jewish people, surely that fact scuppers the Zionists claim of "time in memorial"?

Curious that you mention Ur : Pope John Paul II was actually invited to Ur by Saddam Hussein when the Pope announced his tour of the Holy Land in 2000.

The Americans and the Israeli's asked the Pope not to accept Husseins invitation with the threat that they (Israel) would withdraw the invitation to John Paul to visit Jerusalem as part of the same pilgrimage.




They're entitled to the land that they had until 1948 when Jewish terrorists
ethnically cleansed them from that land.
To say that they're entitled to land of their own is disingenuous and irrelevant.
They're entitled to the land occupied since 1948 by the Israeli Zionists.




I was referring to Arab-Israeli's who do not enjoy the same entitlement as other citizens within Israel.
You're an expert on Israel but you don't appear to have heard about the demarcation that exists between Arab-Israeli's and Zionist Israeli's on citizens rights.

In relation to Palestinians - they're not citizens of Israel as Israel rejects Palestinians.
needless to say they're oppressed by the Israeli occupiers who stole their land in 1948.

Google the Arab-Israeli's and see the disparity that exists regarding their rights compared to other citizens if Israel.
Obviously you missed the lecture at university that day.

 

[Carrera]

"The horrible irony of it is that he is getting that from a British National Newspaper and a Zionist professional editorial writer."

Incidentally, let posters please be aware you recently claimed Israeli police knowingly targeted women and children e.t.c. but you provided no proof of your claims or sources. Another poster also asked you where your proof is so we can we all have some reliable sources from you (the BBC will do or CNN).
I have been taken to task and been accused of distorting facts but you have frequently made these claims without any evidence. To my knowledge you have never been corrected or required to post any link for the claims you make.
Any American soldier will tell you they have had experiences of being set-up and tricked into bombing areas where human shields were secretly placed. Even Saddam's regime tried that tactic. So, let's see the evidence as I never heard of Israelis shooting minors deliberately and the last case I heard they simply disarmed a child suicide bomber sent by Palestinians.

I think that he is a racist scumbag who wants every last Muslim wiped off the face of the Earth, and he is playing his small part in making that so. He claims otherwise, but he consistently justifies, ignores or excuses the murder of Muslims.

Perhaps I am being somewhat hysterical, but it bothers the hell out of me that you can substitute Judaism for Islam and Muslim for Jew and you really can't see much difference between what he says and what ******'s lumpenproles said in the run up to Kristalnacht. The horrible irony of it is that he is getting that from a British National Newspaper and a Zionist professional editorial writer.

Recall his repeated attempts to insinuate that Islam was 'backward' because he couldn't name a single Muslim scientist ? ...

 

[limerickman]

I'm sorry but they're not entitled to anything except a state of their own, (outside of Jewish residential areas).

You're not sorry.

And the Palestinians are entitled to reclaim the land stolen from them by the ethnically cleansing Zionists.

If these people (Hamas and company) are capable of kidnapping Kate Burton who came full of lofty desires to help the Palestinian cause, heaven knows what they would do once inside Jerusalem.

Jerusalem remained under Caliphate control for over 800 years to 1918.
If they wanted to destroy Jerusalem (and they didn't/don't), they surely would have done so during that period.

You're scaremongering, Melanie.

Let's remember Hamas threatened to attack Israel from within. What do you imagine that means? ?

Hmm.
Perhaps it is a response to the killing of innocent Palestinians?

You and Darkboong are confusing the concept of gentiles with terrorists. No city or country is obligated to allow a potential threat to security within their residential areas. I myself would be welcome in Israel and I'm not Jewish either or even religious.
To be honest with you, the more I hear the more it seems the Palestinians are going to blow their chances and lose the support they have from some sympathetic ears. The U.K. foreign office is now warning U.K. nationals not to go to Gaza, declaring it unsafe. Again, who is to blame for that?

And you're talking complete rubbish.

You know that the EU negotiates with Hamas and Hezbollah?
You do know this?

I know that you're sketchy on detail but the EU recognises both groupings.
Of course the Zionists jump up and down about it but there you go.

The EU recognise that Hamas and Hezbollah enjoy widespread support.
The Israeli's are slow learners.
they will negotiate with Hamas and Hezbollah too.
it's only a matter of time.

 

[EoinC]

...If these people (Hamas and company)...

Carrera, you have been warned on this many times before. While you search for accurate divisions 1,000+ years ago, you are seen to be grotesquely given to generalisations on current situations. You frequently mix the terms Palestinian, Arab and Muslim, which is erroneous. You frequently equate the greater Palestinian public with Hamas, which is erroneous. Your generalisations are scaralous and harmful.
Mark Thatcher was (supposedly) involved in instigating an attempted armed coup in Equatorial Guinea. Mark Thatcher is British, therefore (according to Carrera Logic 101), British people are coup-mongers and mercenary-managers. Coup-mongers and mercenary-managers are not welcome in Australia, therefore (according to Carrera Logic 101), all British should get out of Australia.
When it comes to dealing with terrorists, deal with the terrorists themselves, not the race that they came from. You are trying to make all Palestinian people responsible for the actions of a few.
You continue to proffer the Falacy of Hasty Generalisation. You are judging a people by the actions of a few. Fact - most Palestinians are not suicide bombers (there wouldn't be many left if they were). Fact - most Palestinians are not terrorists (where necessary, take action against those who are. Fact - Most Jewish people are not Zionists (for an atheist, you seem hellbent on following the Zionist trail of destruction and trying to associate every Jew with that cause). I am against Palestinian terrorism. I am against Zionist terrorism. Being state-sponsored does not mean that it is not terrorist in nature.
A lot of people on both sides of the fence are working very hard at applying the means to produce a peaceful solution. Your uninformed war-mongering is something I find rather disgusting. If it is something you truly believe, then get your ass (or donkey, if you prefer) over there and take up a position on the frontline. If not, please review the divisive diatribes that you have proffered on this, and several other threads, and tell us how it can be construed in anything other than a very negative manner.
Let us know the next time you speak with a Palestinian. Tell us your impression. Have you ever spoken with a Palestinian? You seem to know their collective thought processes better than they themselves know. Perhaps that came with your history degree - an inate ability to understand people better than they understand themselves, and all able to be carried out from a remote and safe location. Impressive stuff. I've met Jews and I've met Palestinians. I'm just sorry that I wasn't as well-trained as you in realising that, by reason of birth, they necessarily hated each other. Thank you for informing me that controlled hatred is better than working towards a long-term peaceful solution.

 

[darkboong]

"The horrible irony of it is that he is getting that from a British National Newspaper and a Zionist professional editorial writer."

Incidentally, let posters please be aware you recently claimed Israeli police knowingly targeted women and children e.t.c, but you provided no proof of your claims or sources.

I did provide evidence and sources (and have done repeatedly). Whenever I brought up said evidence you failed to address it. Generally you have ignored the evidence, and of course you have tried to smoke screen by raising unrelated issues such as Muslim Immigrants, North African Immigrants in France, British Residents in the Falklands, Persians, Ancient History, Russian schoolkids and of course Chechnya.

I'll provide some more for you :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1306433,00.html

Just three examples of evidence that I have brought up :

Alassar
Al-Hams
Corrie

"The number of Palestinian children age 17 and under killed in the past four years stands at more than 650 as of mid-October, 2004. Of those, about 30% were killed by a shot to the head. About 20% were killed by shots to the chest. Almost all were killed by Israeli soldiers and settlers."

http://www.palestinemonitor.org

Another poster also asked you where your proof is so we can we all have some reliable sources from you (the BBC will do or CNN).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/4534620.stm

I have been taken to task and been accused of distorting facts but you have frequently made these claims without any evidence.

I post evidence to support the claim first time around, you ignore it, then I carry on repeating the claim. The problem with your posts is that you sprinkle quotation marks around un-attributed stuff to lend it authority. You have grossly misrepresented what you have quoted on more than one occasion too.

To my knowledge you have never been corrected or required to post any link for the claims you make.

You would be wrong, DMC and CR are keeping me honest (thanks DMC & CR).

Any American soldier will tell you they have had experiences of being set-up and tricked into bombing areas where human shields were secretly placed.

Off topic, and from a dubious source with a vested interest in not getting frogmarched to a court-martial.

Even Saddam's regime tried that tactic. So, let's see the evidence as I never heard of Israelis shooting minors deliberately and the last case I heard they simply disarmed a child suicide bomber sent by Palestinians.

Two main sources for that : Wikipedia (at the time it was written it was open for anyone to write, even liars like you). The Israeli military. The official statement issued by the Ministry for Foreign Affairs (that I read at http://www.mfa.gov.il) makes no mention of a child categorically attempting a suicide bombing. The kids admitted to be 'suicide bombers' *during questioning*. The IDF routinely uses torture during questioning, and has been caught red handed torturing minors in the past. The IDF's own reputation and methods would disqualify the evidence it presented to a British court of law.

That said it would not surprise me at all if some kids decided they wanted to kill Israelis checkpoint guards, the IDF kills enough of their classmates and they see plenty of mothers and children die at IDF checkpoints during childbirth. That is no justification of course, but it is a reason.

 

[FredC]

Carrera, you have been warned on this many times before. While you search for accurate divisions 1,000+ years ago, you are seen to be grotesquely given to generalisations on current situations. You frequently mix the terms Palestinian, Arab and Muslim, which is erroneous. You frequently equate the greater Palestinian public with Hamas, which is erroneous. Your generalisations are scaralous and harmful.
Mark Thatcher was (supposedly) involved in instigating an attempted armed coup in Equatorial Guinea. Mark Thatcher is British, therefore (according to Carrera Logic 101), British people are coup-mongers and mercenary-managers. Coup-mongers and mercenary-managers are not welcome in Australia, therefore (according to Carrera Logic 101), all British should get out of Australia.
When it comes to dealing with terrorists, deal with the terrorists themselves, not the race that they came from. You are trying to make all Palestinian people responsible for the actions of a few.
You continue to proffer the Falacy of Hasty Generalisation. You are judging a people by the actions of a few. Fact - most Palestinians are not suicide bombers (there wouldn't be many left if they were). Fact - most Palestinians are not terrorists (where necessary, take action against those who are. Fact - Most Jewish people are not Zionists (for an atheist, you seem hellbent on following the Zionist trail of destruction and trying to associate every Jew with that cause). I am against Palestinian terrorism. I am against Zionist terrorism. Being state-sponsored does not mean that it is not terrorist in nature.
A lot of people on both sides of the fence are working very hard at applying the means to produce a peaceful solution. Your uninformed war-mongering is something I find rather disgusting. If it is something you truly believe, then get your ass (or donkey, if you prefer) over there and take up a position on the frontline. If not, please review the divisive diatribes that you have proffered on this, and several other threads, and tell us how it can be construed in anything other than a very negative manner.
Let us know the next time you speak with a Palestinian. Tell us your impression. Have you ever spoken with a Palestinian? You seem to know their collective thought processes better than they themselves know. Perhaps that came with your history degree - an inate ability to understand people better than they understand themselves, and all able to be carried out from a remote and safe location. Impressive stuff. I've met Jews and I've met Palestinians. I'm just sorry that I wasn't as well-trained as you in realising that, by reason of birth, they necessarily hated each other. Thank you for informing me that controlled hatred is better than working towards a long-term peaceful solution.

A good and well thought out post Eoin. Unfortunately it won't stop his erroneous misconceptions of reality. He's as thick as 'roo dung and braindead to boot. He's also a congenital liar as to his previous 'lives' (a la Walter Mitty)
Anyway the **** he writes, the more he becomes our ping pong ball. He's bonkers mate, so treat it like that. DB and Lim are smart guys, I'm fed up with Crappy, so I just quip in most times these days with something simple that he can't respond to.

 

[EoinC]

...so I just quip in most times these days with something simple that he can't respond to.

I try to hold myself back, Fred, but these fake-leather bondage straps are sometimes not sufficient to prevent my fingers hitting the keyboard.

 

[FredC]

I try to hold myself back, Fred, but these fake-leather bondage straps are sometimes not sufficient to prevent my fingers hitting the keyboard.

I think Crappy's got some of those to wind up his arm, and a prayer shawl. But I've got my traditional red and white head square, and black band. I'll get a jalabah later. I can ride a camel as well. Let's see if he can ride a donkey in the desert with a skull cap. Hehehehe.

 

[davidmc]

Hmm.
Perhaps it is a response to the killing of innocent Palestinians?

2 wrongs make a right

You know that the EU negotiates with Hamas and Hezbollah?
You do know this?

I know that you're sketchy on detail but the EU recognises both groupings.
Of course the Zionists jump up and down about it but there you go.

The EU recognise that Hamas and Hezbollah enjoy widespread support.
The Israeli's are slow learners.
they will negotiate with Hamas and Hezbollah too.
it's only a matter of time.

That is a telling commentary on the countries in which those extremist ethnic/religious groups enjoy monopoly status.

 

[davidmc]

The Palestinians are Gentiles, they are excluded.

I am trying to remember the appellation bestowed upon those who, residing on this planet, which are not Muslim. Oh yes...the term is 'infidel". If memory serves me correctly, it is not exactly a term of endearment. These threads, which devolve in2 competing religions/ethnicity, will get us nowhere, it would, invariably; seem. I think I set the record for the shortest sentence w/ the most comma's/semi-colon's English is fun

 

[EoinC]

...English is fun

It shaw is.

 

[limerickman]

2 wrongs make a right

QUOTE]

David - I agree with you two wrongs do not make a right.

Unfortunately Israeli actions are reciprocated by the opposing guerilla tactics.

That is a telling commentary on the countries in which those extremist ethnic/religious groups enjoy monopoly status.

I think that you will find that many countries refuse to engage with Israel.
For example in business, a lot of companies will choose not to invest in Israel
on principle.

In diplomatic terms, Israel is to a very large extent ostracised as well.
Nearly every country refuses to locate their respective embassies in the Jewish capital of Jerusalem.

In fact some countries would deem your country's unconditional support of Israel, as extremist.

The fact that 80% of Israel's GDP can be accounted for by US transfer of funds, illustrates just how reluctant the rest of the world is to engage with Israel in real terms.

 

[darkboong]

I am trying to remember the appellation bestowed upon those who, residing on this planet, which are not Muslim. Oh yes...the term is 'infidel". If memory serves me correctly, it is not exactly a term of endearment.

I explained why I introduced the term 'Gentile' some time ago, it wasn't for comparitive religion purposes. It was to present the Israeli policy as it is conceived and discussed by Israel's policy makers.

However, from the comparative religion point of view, if we accept that Islam is rooted in Juadism... Perhaps it is the case that 'Infidel' also has it's roots in 'Gentile'...

"You reap what you sow."...

 

[Carrera]

Limerickman I'd like to address one point you made:

"I was referring to Arab-Israeli's who do not enjoy the same entitlement as other citizens within Israel.You're an expert on Israel but you don't appear to have heard about the demarcation that exists between Arab-Israeli's and Zionist Israeli's on citizens rights."

Firstly, let's forget all this nonsense about "pure races" as virtually all races on the planet have some ethnic mixing. The Jews are also aware of this. The prophet Ezekiel wrote:
"Canaan is the land of your ancestry and there you were born. An Amorite was your father and a Hittite your mother."
Canaanites, of course, were a closely related semitic race and lived alongside the Hebrews.
What you seem to forget, though, is that all races like to believe they are identical to their ancient ancesters which is why a Greek will probably feel offended if you state modern Greeks are genetically more mixed than ancient Athenians.
However, at the end of the day, the European Jews who reside in Israel or Jews who came from Russia (Lenin was half Jewish/Armenian) all relate to the same culture and speak Hebrew whereas Arabs do not.
Now, I have never said Arabs should be excluded on that basis alone. What I have said is that Arabs should be confined to their own state due to their unwillingness to tolerate other faiths, democracy and because of the fact the majority clearly hate Jewish culture. They should be excluded as they harbour terrorists who pose a security threat to innocent people. This is the cold, harsh reality. To hell with political correctness where the right to life is a bigger factor.
One question you also need to answer is the same one I asked darkboong. I would like to ask why you appear not to be concerned over similar wrongs. For instance, Russians who live in Latvia don't have the same rights as Latvians (a different group of Slavs)? In fact, Russians who live in Riga have to pass a language test to be fluent in Latvian or they can't find a job. Neither are they granted a passport.
I think the truth is very simple. You probably aren't even aware of that reality and neither is darkboong. You are both only interested in trying to find any possible means by which you can demonise Israel alone while other countries can do as they please. You both apply one set of specific rules to only one country because it suits your cause. You both research every grain of information you can find where Israel alone has broken some rule or other and then use it for your campaign. Yet we all know Israel isn't perfect (although its human rights record is a damned site better than Germany or Japan).
If you were genuinely interested in human rights around the world you'd be referring to other cases. As Dave MC pointed out what we witness is a "compassion of convenience". This may well be offensive to some but I think there's a lot of truth in it.

But you invoke the Jewish premise that the Bible states that their birthright entitles them to displace the native people of a territory in 1948 - to establish a country called Israel as specified in the OT.
"Time in memorial".
That's what the Zionists say to try to justify 1948.

Now that you have accepted that there were non-Jews on that territory prior
to the arrival of the Jewish people, surely that fact scuppers the Zionists claim of "time in memorial"?

Curious that you mention Ur : Pope John Paul II was actually invited to Ur by Saddam Hussein when the Pope announced his tour of the Holy Land in 2000.

The Americans and the Israeli's asked the Pope not to accept Husseins invitation with the threat that they (Israel) would withdraw the invitation to John Paul to visit Jerusalem as part of the same pilgrimage.




They're entitled to the land that they had until 1948 when Jewish terrorists
ethnically cleansed them from that land.
To say that they're entitled to land of their own is disingenuous and irrelevant.
They're entitled to the land occupied since 1948 by the Israeli Zionists.




I was referring to Arab-Israeli's who do not enjoy the same entitlement as other citizens within Israel.
You're an expert on Israel but you don't appear to have heard about the demarcation that exists between Arab-Israeli's and Zionist Israeli's on citizens rights.

In relation to Palestinians - they're not citizens of Israel as Israel rejects Palestinians.
needless to say they're oppressed by the Israeli occupiers who stole their land in 1948.

Google the Arab-Israeli's and see the disparity that exists regarding their rights compared to other citizens if Israel.
Obviously you missed the lecture at university that day.

 

[limerickman]

Firstly, let's forget all this nonsense about "pure races" as virtually all races on the planet have some ethnic mixing.

Why are you intent on parking the issue of ethnicity? You used tonnes of bandwith trying to dispute the issue of ethnicity with DB last week.

However, at the end of the day, the European Jews who reside in Israel or Jews who came from Russia (Lenin was half Jewish/Armenian) all relate to the same culture and speak Hebrew,

They don't relate to the same culture : Europe is a diverse region.
You trying to suggest that a European Jew - by rite of his/her faith - automatically makes them the same, culturally, as a Jew from America or Australia ?
That's plain daft.

Using that argument, all Roman Catholics are the same regardless of their geographical location.

That thesis doesn't wash.

Now, I have never said Arabs should be excluded on that basis alone. What I have said is that Arabs should be confined to their own state due to their unwillingness to tolerate other faiths, democracy and because of the fact the majority clearly hate Jewish culture.

History shows that in fact Arabs were extremely tolerant of Jews in the past.
In fact for 800 years Jews/Arabs/Christians lived in relative peace in the region that was ethnically cleansed by the Zionists.
Jewish worship and Jewish culture was never oppressed in 800 years in that particular territory.
So history proves you wrong yet again.

They should be excluded as they harbour terrorists who pose a security threat to innocent people. This is the cold, harsh reality. To hell with political correctness where the right to life is a bigger factor.

The harsh reality if that Israel is the aggressor in Palestine.
What about the Palestinians right to life - instead of being murdered by the IDF?

One question you also need to answer is the same one I asked darkboong. I would like to ask why you appear not to be concerned over similar wrongs. For instance, Russians who live in Latvia don't have the same rights as Latvians (a different group of Slavs)? In fact, Russians who live in Riga have to pass a language test to be fluent in Latvian or they can't find a job. .

This discussion concerns Israel and it's Zionist expansion in Palestine.

If you want to discuss other regional disputes - start another thread.