Why do my legs give up before my lungs?

[MuppetLegs]

Originally posted by Susan Repp
O.K. I have to ask - why "Muppetlegs"? What part of Ireland? My father was from Limerick, beautiful place! O.K. back to cycling - interested in what people suggest for you - me I am at the other end ..

It's kinda nicer than MutantLegs! as that's what people say I have, due to the prominence of muscles in places where nobody else seems to have them! I'm from the outskirts of Belfast in Northern Ireland originally, but now reside in Leeds, England.

 

[Susan Repp]

Ooooooeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrr .. Mr. Muppetlegs! Yep, Muppetlegs sounds better. I was very inventive with my name ehh?!??! Are you looking into racing for England?

 

[Susan Repp]

Adam

Sounds like CA is a wonderful playground for you and your toys! The weather must be pretty good year round? I know what you mean about biking to work. I want to start this year as I only live 3 miles away from the base (won't even work up a bloody sweat); but, it will mean I can bike around the Academy and then bike home. No wash facilities though - the AF are protective about that ha, ha! Security checks! I can quite understand the buddy system for going out. I spend a lot of time biking by myself if I just want to fly out after work and as you said trying to get folks together is a pain sometimes. Life has a way of taking over sometimes. I am looking forward to lighter evenings and warmer temps. When I got injured I was alone and it was no fun .. ruined my day! I will check a video out sometime - sit with my feet up eating bomboms and dreaming. They are absolute demons when they get out there - talk about mind over matter, body - everything! In England they have tours on the regular tv and I used to watch; but, here you have to have all these sports channel (that I don't have) and there are never many biking events on. They have some pretty good tours here in Colorado - I noticed one coming up at the end of May in Buena Vista I think it is a century tour I am not sure what the elevation is; but, you definately feel it when your there. Feels like too many Margaritas!

 

[dot]

Originally posted by MuppetLegs
When I say accomplished, I really mean pretty good, as I've competed for Ireland in mountain running and am right up there at the sharp end in expert level mtbing, so what I'm looking for is advice on how to beat my limiters and make the jump to the next level.

I mean "weak heart" is the heart that cannot pump enough blood. E.g. your legs can consume 5.5 liters of O2 but heart cannot pump more than 5. But if you also a runner there should be no problem with heart, just with your legs.

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by Susan Repp
Dot

Is this test expensive? Where would you look for that? I think I am weak; but, I have never measured it against other people. I think against the average woman I am higher - against elite woman I probably stink. What we think is bad ourselves is often not the case. Running, biking on flats seems to come more naturally and climbing long hills is just plain hard.

The testing Dot is talking about isn't a standard test that would be used with many athletes (but perhaps for research) almost all elite endurance athletes get tested for VO2 max and LT (with a couple of others). As a beginner I wouldn't advise you to get any testing done as its expensive and not too useful (almost any form of training will help you move forward). You already know where your weaknesses are climbing as you said, for the moment I think you should try to address this (knowing your heart is big or small/powerful or not won't change the training you'll do!).

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by Susan Repp
2LAP

Yes, the hills around here tend to be long and steep. If you get out west we have flats with rolling hills so there is varied terrain. You suggest making the intervals/rests longer for those long hauls and shorter for the bumps in the rollers so is it o.k. to do those in the same week?!?! I know you mentioned not doing too many interval training sessions in the same week because of overload. I am sometimes bad with my rest periods - it seems if I take an extra day off life seems to wreck everything for that week so I try to stick to my regular day off. If I don't keep a check on it I get a little crazy. Even doing another program sends my brain into a spin .. old habits are hard to die. Think like a biker - not a body builder I guess. I have been guilty of the volume not intensity problem .. changed my views after seeing all this stuff on the forum. Professionals, semi-pros, etc in the business of cycling and not from the gym side of things. Not saying the gym is wrong for sure - just different strokes for different folks! Will still keep up the gym and add the cycling training!

I agree with you on the gym, I'm currently attending the gym at the moment and treat it like a bike rider. Intervals on the treadmill, I almost vomit during spinning and hard core yoga for the flexability. Gym's programs seem to be geared up for weightloss and tone not for maximising fitness but you don't need to follow the norm.

You could do two intervals a week, just watch out for too much fatigue. Imagine this pattern...
1. too little training you go slower.
2. enough training you get slowly better.
3. training just right... maximum improvement.
4. too much training you get slowly better.
5. much to much training... you get slower, overtrained and potentialy ill (physical and mental).

There is a fine balance to be found and it can only be found by experimenting. As long as you remember rest, progression and specificity.

 

[redstorm]

Originally posted by 2LAP
Yep, there are a few of us from the UK.

I think you should be doing intervals too.

Try 1 minute intervals at 100% effort with 2 to 3 minutes rest. Over a number of intervals you will produce a lot of lactic acid and this will help you 'tolerate' high lactic levels as you experiance in the race. This is sometimes called lactic stacking.

Interestingly, increasing the length of the rest interval to 5 to 8 minutes allows recovery so the effect of the intervals changes. Longer recoveries alows the rider to adapt to perform more work in the 1 minute (not what you want to do in this situation).

Another session is to ride at TT/MTB race pace and then increase the pace slightly for 2 to 3 minutes after which point you should drop the pace below TT pace for 3 mins as a recovery. This 'cycle' of intensities can be maintained for 25 to 45 minutes. This session will help you adapt to and recover from the increases in intensity when doing climbs, etc. If you use a heart rate monitor and using the UK's old 4 levels use the upper HR of level 3 as the hard intensity and lower HR of level 3 as the low intensity.

Susan, have you considered doing longer intervals for the different effects that these might give you? Typicaly...
*3 to 5 minutes are good for raising your VO2max and your ability to raise the pace for 3 to 5 minutes over hills etc.
*8 to 15 minutes are good for raising your LT and your ability to TT or maintain a higher pace over almost any distance.
There's loads of discussion about different intervals in other threads.

I have read at a few places that for intervals to be beneficial you should at least spend 10-20 minutes at 80-90% MaxHR total across all intervals? In order to respect the 10-20 min duration how would you schedule the intervals?

Right now I have started doing the following:

- 15 minute warmup @ 60-70% MaxHR
- 5x1 minute intervals @ 80-90% MaxHR
- 15 minute cooldown period @ 60% MaxHR

In between intervals I let my HR go down to 60-65% before starting another interval.

With the 5 x 1 minute I am under the 10-20 min recommendation I have read about so I was thinking about increasing to 10 x 1 minute. This made me wonder if 10 x 1 minute is best or should I be doing 5 x 2 minutes instead?

Are there any ressources for information on the net about duration & interval count combinaisons and their benefits ?

thanks!

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by redstorm
I have read at a few places that for intervals to be beneficial you should at least spend 10-20 minutes at 80-90% MaxHR total across all intervals? In order to respect the 10-20 min duration how would you schedule the intervals?

Depends on what your doing and why you are doing the interval. Not sure where these guidlines are from as some intervals might be 20 mins in length on their own! Also in short intervals (say 30 seconds) your HR might not reach this level until the end or even after the interval and then only for a few seconds.

Originally posted by redstorm
Right now I have started doing the following:

- 15 minute warmup @ 60-70% MaxHR
- 5x1 minute intervals @ 80-90% MaxHR
- 15 minute cooldown period @ 60% MaxHR

In between intervals I let my HR go down to 60-65% before starting another interval.

What do you want to acheive/why are you doing them specificaly? Do you let your HR get up their before you start timing? This sounds like a viable session, although you could introduce another set if you find it too easy.

Originally posted by redstorm
With the 5 x 1 minute I am under the 10-20 min recommendation I have read about so I was thinking about increasing to 10 x 1 minute. This made me wonder if 10 x 1 minute is best or should I be doing 5 x 2 minutes instead?

That would depend on what you want to acheive.

Originally posted by redstorm
Are there any ressources for information on the net about duration & interval count combinaisons and their benefits ?

Not sure, but you can usualy find examples in books and things. Perhaps we can start another thread 'favourite interval sessions and why you do them/what they are for'.

Roughly and realising that there are an infinate number of ways sessions can be planed. The physiological/training responses to each effort are also not quite as simple as below. Anyone please feel free to add or amend my list.

10 second efforts (I call these sprints) develop ability to sprint (neural and ATP-PC energy system). 2.5 mins needed for complete recovery after an effort of this type.

30 to 90 second efforts develop anaerobic capacity and build up lots of lactate. Complete recovery can take more than 15 minutes after an effort. Lots of burning in the legs.

3 to 6 minutes develop aerobic capacity or VO2 max.

8 to 30 minutes develop LT (and related things).

Long rests increase the amount of work that can be done during the period while short rests reduce fatigue over repeated efforts. So rests should be based on the effort and what you want to acheive.

I normaly get people to ride at 100% for the whole distance; that means sprint for 10 to 90 seconds as hard as you can and kick every time you slow down, pursuit effort for 3 to 6, TT effort for 8 to 30 mins. HR or power are obviously effective means for guiding the effort too.

You might want to check out ... http://www.cyclingforums.com/t41023.html

 

[redstorm]

thanks for the reply,

The goal I would like to acheive for this summer would be to reach the 40km @ or under 1 hour. I don't know if I should consider this a long term (few years) or short term (this summer) milestone?

Right now I am capable of running @ 30-35 km/h for one hour. Would intervals help me reach 40km/h or should I stick with just under TT pace rides?

 

[Susan Repp]

How about you all come and live and work in the Springs - I could end up the fittest bird around! This is some awesome info - thanks!

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by redstorm
thanks for the reply,

The goal I would like to acheive for this summer would be to reach the 40km @ or under 1 hour. I don't know if I should consider this a long term (few years) or short term (this summer) milestone?

Right now I am capable of running @ 30-35 km/h for one hour. Would intervals help me reach 40km/h or should I stick with just under TT pace rides?

Good goal and one that lots of people have as I don't know you I couldn't say if you will do it this year or next.

To do a 40km/h ride for 1 hour you actualy need to be riding at closer to 41 or 42 km/h as you have to compensate for times when you slow (@ the start, @ corners, etc.) and into the wind. So start aiming to ride at this higher level!!!!!!

Intervals are definately the way to go as these will alow you to target your fitness specificaly. There are loads of threads on this topic so its worth searching and reading... look for a member called TTer (and as he lives in the UK also search for 25 mile TT's and LT training).

Finaly, why would you stick with just below TT pace rides? If you only train at 30 km/h how do you expect to race at 41 to 42 km/h.

 

[redstorm]

Originally posted by 2LAP
Good goal and one that lots of people have as I don't know you I couldn't say if you will do it this year or next.

To do a 40km/h ride for 1 hour you actualy need to be riding at closer to 41 or 42 km/h as you have to compensate for times when you slow (@ the start, @ corners, etc.) and into the wind. So start aiming to ride at this higher level!!!!!!

Intervals are definately the way to go as these will alow you to target your fitness specificaly. There are loads of threads on this topic so its worth searching and reading... look for a member called TTer (and as he lives in the UK also search for 25 mile TT's and LT training).

Finaly, why would you stick with just below TT pace rides? If you only train at 30 km/h how do you expect to race at 41 to 42 km/h.

Thanks for the referral on the other threads 2Lap! There was some pretty good stuff in there! Especially this part (Dicussion between TTer and ricstern) :

Combining this into a yearly of half-year programme then, is the best 'progression' as follows:

1) Base/Aerobic training for 4-8weeks

2) Start including zone 3, 'tempo' in some rides, for 4weeks. This is to 'bridge' the transition from easy aerobic 'volume' training to higher intensity stuff.

3) Start 2x20min intervals, zone 4, for 4-12weeks or until no noticeable improvement.

4) Do VO2max intervals, 6x4-5mins at zone 5, and since these are more fatiguing and 2x20mins couldn't be kept-up in the same week, start doing some tempo riding again to maintain LT/TT training effect.

5) Race (or start racing toward end of (3) and in (4))

Does this physiologically make sense? Is this the general outline most coaches use in developing a training plan for TTing (ie. no sprints included, as needed for road racing).

If I would like to include 2x20min intervals in my training, it may not be a good idea to include them cold turkey? Do you think I should use smaller intervals to ease into it? Or can I start including 2x20 sessions immediately? Right now my schedule allows for 8-10 hours of training per week over 4-5 days. This is all done indoors as cycling @ -30C is'nt such a wonderfull experience!!! (Wonder if your tongue sticks to cold carbon ? )

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by redstorm
If I would like to include 2x20min intervals in my training, it may not be a good idea to include them cold turkey? Do you think I should use smaller intervals to ease into it? Or can I start including 2x20 sessions immediately? Right now my schedule allows for 8-10 hours of training per week over 4-5 days. This is all done indoors as cycling @ -30C is'nt such a wonderfull experience!!! (Wonder if your tongue sticks to cold carbon ? )

If you don't do any TT efforts at the moment then you probably will want to build up to this, starting with 2 x 10 mins, 3 x 10 mins, 2 x 15 mins.

If you work at this level regularly (and most would) you could either jump straight in or do one week of 2 x 15.

Remember these are quite tough sessions! Gutted about the cold!