How to get stronger on hills????

Bruce L said:

I am 5' 6 " 137 lb 57 yrs old with HR max of 185. I have been riding seriously for about three years and where I live I mostly do climbing. I put my time in and have a 17 lb Tete de Course. However I still tire after a 5 mile climb and easily get into zone 5 whenever I try to push it. I vary climb and try to stand on short bumps. My cadence is usually 60 + and most of my gearing is 39/24 or 27 although I do have a triple which I usually reserve for gradient greater than 12%. Do you have any suggestions how I can get stronger ie. intervals, gym training etc. Thanks

Bruce, climbing is simply a matter of power to weight ratio, a high maximal steady state threshold as a percentage of your max and a high maximal aerobic output. Sounds fancy, but it really comes down to the fact that climbing is where you just can't fake it, fitness, proper pacing and mental toughness are everything. A few tips that should help:
1. A zone 5 effort (I'm guessing that that means a VO2peak effort) is one that typically lasts between 5-8 minutes; and that's a one time effort to complete fatigue, so I'm not sure why you are suprised that going into this high level of intensity is so fatiguing (at least that's how it sounds). The idea is to pace yourself a little better and not hit that zone until you are close to the top of a climb, if at all.
2. A 5 mile climb is all about the steady state effort. Training the submaximal intensities is better acheived by spending a lot of time at the intensity, not going harder (eg: into zone 5). Use intervals of 15min or more to work at it from that perspective (ie: don't blow up in the middle of the climb/interval, back off just a little and keep going).
3. Standing while climbing aside, try to keep the cadence up at 80+ rpm while seated. It may feel odd at first if you are used to ~60rpm, but the more you can learn to spin a smaller gear, the more you will be able to repeat the climbing efforts.
4. If you do want to work on your max aerobic power as well (I recommend it), work on efforts of 3-5min with equal recovery.
5. Aside from core work or general health/fitness goals, I don't recommend 'strength' training in the gym to improve climbing. Going uphill fast is not about strength, but power to weight and metabolic fitness.

Smartt/RST said:

Bruce, climbing is simply a matter of power to weight ratio, a high maximal steady state threshold as a percentage of your max and a high maximal aerobic output. Sounds fancy, but it really comes down to the fact that climbing is where you just can't fake it, fitness, proper pacing and mental toughness are everything. A few tips that should help:
1. A zone 5 effort (I'm guessing that that means a VO2peak effort) is one that typically lasts between 5-8 minutes; and that's a one time effort to complete fatigue, so I'm not sure why you are suprised that going into this high level of intensity is so fatiguing (at least that's how it sounds). The idea is to pace yourself a little better and not hit that zone until you are close to the top of a climb, if at all.
2. A 5 mile climb is all about the steady state effort. Training the submaximal intensities is better acheived by spending a lot of time at the intensity, not going harder (eg: into zone 5). Use intervals of 15min or more to work at it from that perspective (ie: don't blow up in the middle of the climb/interval, back off just a little and keep going).
3. Standing while climbing aside, try to keep the cadence up at 80+ rpm while seated. It may feel odd at first if you are used to ~60rpm, but the more you can learn to spin a smaller gear, the more you will be able to repeat the climbing efforts.
4. If you do want to work on your max aerobic power as well (I recommend it), work on efforts of 3-5min with equal recovery.
5. Aside from core work or general health/fitness goals, I don't recommend 'strength' training in the gym to improve climbing. Going uphill fast is not about strength, but power to weight and metabolic fitness.

Thanks alot. That was great!!!!!!

Smartt knows way more than me, but I would just add that I would recommend doing 2x20 minute intervals on your 5 mile hill with about 5 minutes at low effort in between rather than doing the whole 5 mile hill at once (which would probably be more like 30-35 minutes if it's a decent hill). Try to do them at the highest power output that you can maintain for both intervals (if you don't have a power meter just use feet climbed per interval as an approximation -- try to keep them about the same). The first interval won't hurt that bad but the second one might hurt.

Agree these are great tips. For sustained efforts of 15 minutes (typical local hills), 90-92% of max HR seems to work best for me currently. With my limited power output, I'm only climbing a 10% sustained grade at 4-5 mph seated. At that speed, the 30/25 low really helps maintain cadence....and saves the legs for the hills going home.

Later this month I'll be doing a 63 mile loop in North Carolina with a total elevation gain is 10,700 feet. On the early hills, I'll try to take it easy and keep the HR around 85% of max.....it's slow, but really helps me if I want to enjoy the final miles of the ride.

[quote="dhk"]mph seated. At that speed, the 30/25 low really helps maintain cadence.....

Hi DHK, what kind of cadence are you spinning.

dhk said:

With my limited power output, I'm only climbing a 10% sustained grade at 4-5 mph seated. At that speed, the 30/25 low really helps maintain cadence....and saves the legs for the hills going home.

Well, a 30/25 gear ratio (assuming you're running 27" wheel diameter) at 4-5 mph, is only a cadence of 55rpm's or so.

This is why on steep/long hills I like lower gears... I tend to spin around 85-90 rpm uphill, pushing a 24/30 (that's right... a GRANNY gear) to travel a slightly higher speed (~ 6mph) , but offloading the stress to my cardio system, rather than my creaky joints.

[quote="zaskar"]

dhk said:

mph seated. At that speed, the 30/25 low really helps maintain cadence.....

Hi DHK, what kind of cadence are you spinning.

dhk said:

The 30 gives good set of climbing gears for 5-10 mph.

But that's also a function of cadence (as you obviously know).

Wouldn't it be better (less stress on joints - longer stamina), and just as fast, to increase your RPM's on a lower gear? It takes practice for it to become second nature, but once you can spin along at +90, it seems much more efficient (to me anyway)

coolworx said:

But that's also a function of cadence (as you obviously know).

Wouldn't it be better (less stress on joints - longer stamina), and just as fast, to increase your RPM's on a lower gear? It takes practice for it to become second nature, but once you can spin along at +90, it seems much more efficient (to me anyway)

This would be backwards training, why teach your self to spin easier gears? to go slower and work harder? i went from hills i would climb in the granny, now i can climb in the 53 and haul ass and stay under my treshold.point is to get stronger!!

What do you guys think about climbing and knee stress? I did lots of climbing during Summer and find my knees ache after a while. The area where I live is also quite hilly so it was hard to find any flat rides I could do.
Am I the only one to experience acheing knees after climbing and does anyone use knee wraps?
I don't have any specific injury and can ride pain free but I cut down my climbing due to the aches.

Carrera said:

What do you guys think about climbing and knee stress? I did lots of climbing during Summer and find my knees ache after a while. The area where I live is also quite hilly so it was hard to find any flat rides I could do.
Am I the only one to experience acheing knees after climbing and does anyone use knee wraps?
I don't have any specific injury and can ride pain free but I cut down my climbing due to the aches.

I do lots of climbing, my 1st training period was for mountain TT's & mountain races. i only had knee aches when i wasn't fit properly on my bike. seat height, and fore after position. im sure theres others factors that could cause knee aches so look at every possibility, good luck.

zaskar said:

This would be backwards training, why teach your self to spin easier gears? to go slower and work harder? i went from hills i would climb in the granny, now i can climb in the 53 and haul ass and stay under my treshold.point is to get stronger!!

You're not following me here...

If your cadence on the flats is say... 85 Which is really not very efficient, a 90-95 would be better, but lets stick with 85, wouldn't it serve you well to stick with that same cadence on the climbs, and push about 30 gear-inches (or less) and travel at the SAME SPEED as you would if you get out of the saddle and mash 40 gear-inches at 45 rpm?

Just the reduction of stress alone on tendons and joints is worth it!

Remember now, I'm talking about NO REDUCTION in velocity.

My climbing tends to be even and steady. I also notice that my climbing is best when I'm fresh. I usually start a training run with a first initial climb that's very very long, but only steep in certain parts. The main part is a long curve going upwards.
Once I get to a place called Oakamoor things get far more difficult. The whole terrain consists of huge, steep climbs and massive descents. Naturally, no sooner do you get a chance to rest with a descent than you're back to climbing again. The whole area is absolutely deserted as well - just sheep and the sound of your gears meshing uphill. Plus the cussing. I happen to be one of those riders who cusses his way uphill.
As to gears, I've always used the biggest gear I can manage comfortably and I stand up as much as possible.

coolworx said:

But that's also a function of cadence (as you obviously know).

Wouldn't it be better (less stress on joints - longer stamina), and just as fast, to increase your RPM's on a lower gear? It takes practice for it to become second nature, but once you can spin along at +90, it seems much more efficient (to me anyway)

Agree. At 4-5 mph on long grades, I could probably do better with a gear lower than 30/25. I know I could use lower when it comes to the 20-25% steep wall sections. But, gearing is a trade-off as you know, with the best selection depending on how often you need it.

Is cadance the RPM of ONE leg ? If so, I find it best to select a gear that will get me 90 RPM with 85% of my maximum effort , saving a little energy to do the last part of the hill with maximum effort in the highest gear that will give me 90 RPM.

I read somewhere that it's best to visuallise that when your toe-clip is at "5 o'clock" ( almost at the bottom of the "down stroke" , THIS is the time to pull back with your leg. This is a fraction earier than I've been pulling back the toe clip, and feels like your foot is going in a tighter circle.
This has taken a little of the effort from my quads, but my hamstrings now need to adjust!
This provides force on the pedal throughout its entire cycle.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

dalysaha said:

Is cadance the RPM of ONE leg ?

Yes. And 90RPM (three peddle strokes - left, right, left - in one second) is about the most efficient.

Most gearing is too high. A 52/11 at 100 rpm is near to 40mph. Most of us RARELY travel at that speed, and yet our transmissions are skewed to those momentary velocities.

I guess I'm biased because the flats are far and few out here in Western Mass, and long convex hills - one after the other - has left me perceptive to the glory of low gearing.

It's better to run out of them on the downside.

Coolworx - I think you make alot of sense. I've always been a good climber.
I'm lightweight and stick with the task of getting to the top!
But, now that I'm a bit older(most of my racing was in my 20s and I'm now early 40s) I have a left leg problem that shows itself in a sore left hip. My hip gets most sore during and after extended climbs. Both my bikes have 42/25 as the lowest gearing. I can grunt up the hills fine but the cadence drops(usually to around 60, compared with on the flat where I try to maintain 90 +). I'm obviously being to hard on my biological bits and peices and they're telling me so!!
I probably need to try a 39(yek, spending money on my bike!) and see if the speed is the same for me at the higher cadence and if I can get used to that many revs too.
Paulo

I find that now I'm older(45) that spinning a low gear takes my heart rate too high and I tire(this was ok in my twenties and thirties when I could sustain high heart rates) . To maintain any speed I need to roll a bigger gear standing and sitting, this drops my heart rate for the same speed.

This works for me, but we're all a bit different.

ElRamon said:

I find that now I'm older(45) that spinning a low gear takes my heart rate too high and I tire(this was ok in my twenties and thirties when I could sustain high heart rates) . To maintain any speed I need to roll a bigger gear standing and sitting, this drops my heart rate for the same speed.

This works for me, but we're all a bit different.

Remember that you have to adapt to higher cadences. It takes time and is harder on your aerobic system. There is no free lunch, as it were. Spinning saves your muscles (repeatability) and does allow you to accelerate a bit easier, but requires adaptation. Imagine doing 55-60 rpm full out and then hitting a wall. The extra force required to keep the cranks moving at that speed will cause you slow even further to 45-50 (and a potential zig-zag), whereas with 75-80 I find you can back off a little but not feel as if someone grabbed your saddle. 🙂