Gore-tex jacket no longer waterproof

"Jim Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

About 3 years ago I bought a goretex jacket that said it was guaranteed
to keep you dry. My gortex jacket now leaks, so it was sent to Gore-tex
for testing. I was advised that the jacket is leaking due to scattered
puncture damage and that the jacket could not be repaired because the
puncture damage was too extensive. I was asked whether I had walked
through gorse bushes or other spikey vegetation. I explained that I had
not walked through, or sat on gorse bushes or other spikey vegetation.

It was explained to me that the gore-tex guarantee does not cover
puncture damage, just as a car warranty does not cover dents you
get from running into posts etc. The only problem that I have with
this explanation is that there are no visible outside tears or holes in
the jacket. If I had rolled around in spikey vegetation, you would
expect to be able to see some external damage to the jacket.

Can anyone tell me what the usual guarantee given by the manufacturer
(W.L. Gore & Associates ?) is for a gore-tex membrane?

Is it possible that a goretex membrane could get puncture damage
from normal wear and use?

How strong is a gortex membrane? If your jacket does hit the branch
of a tree, is this usually enough to puncture the membrane?

Goretex have offered to sell me a new jacket at a good discount, but
they say this is only a goodwill gesture and that the membrane has not
failed as a result of poor or faulty manufacture. Do you think this is
a satisfactory outcome where puncture damage is the cause of the
jacket leaking? Should I be supplied with a replacement jacket free
of charge? Thanks for your feedback.

Jim

If the damage is "internal" i.e. the external facing fabric looks unmarked,
then the membrane may have been "punctured" by grit. I'm thinking
specifically about any foreign material which might have made it into a
washing machine with the jacket.

Just an idea

druidh

Quoted message said:

Do you think this is
a satisfactory outcome where puncture damage is the cause of the
jacket leaking? Should I be supplied with a replacement jacket free
of charge? Thanks for your feedback.

S'pose it's a good result - the failure isn't covered by the warranty so
they could have sent you away with nothing, and you can't expect 'em to
include puncture damage in the warranty as goretex is hardly puncture
proof. Out of interest what's the discount they've offered you?

How much use has the jacket had? I found that with regular (weekly)
use, a goretex jacket would last no more than a couple of years. My
current jacket is Lowe Alpine TPC which has lasted 4 years so far but
has now started leaking. My next will be an experiment with soft
shell, which is not supposed to be waterproof anyway :-)

"Simon Caldwell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How much use has the jacket had? I found that with regular (weekly)
use, a goretex jacket would last no more than a couple of years. My
current jacket is Lowe Alpine TPC which has lasted 4 years so far but
has now started leaking. My next will be an experiment with soft
shell, which is not supposed to be waterproof anyway :-)

Thanks Simon for this posting. Can you tell me why you would not
expect a goretex jacket to last for more than 2 years? What happens
to the membrane to stop it being waterproof? Will any brand of
jacket start leaking after 2-4 years of weekly use, I thought
goretex jackets were supposed to be superior to most other
waterproof jackets, that's why I paid a lot to get one!

I have used my jacket once a fortnight over a period of 3 years,
but I am mystified as to why it should now have extensive puncture
damage.

Regards

Jim

"Mark Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you think this is
a satisfactory outcome where puncture damage is the cause of the
jacket leaking? Should I be supplied with a replacement jacket free
of charge? Thanks for your feedback.

S'pose it's a good result - the failure isn't covered by the warranty so
they could have sent you away with nothing, and you can't expect 'em to
include puncture damage in the warranty as goretex is hardly puncture
proof. Out of interest what's the discount they've offered you?

Thanks for these comments Mark, but how easily does a goretex
membrane get punctured. It seems to me to be a waste of money
paying a lot for a goretex membrane if it is easily punctured. It seems
that the membrane can be punctured even if there are no external
signs of damage to the jacket.

Thanks druidh for the suggestion about grit getting into the washing
machine, but I am sure this is not applicable in my case, but
certainly something to look out for. I am trying to establish just
how fragile these membranes really are!

Regards

Jim

Quoted message said:

Thanks for these comments Mark, but how easily does a goretex
membrane get punctured. It seems to me to be a waste of money
paying a lot for a goretex membrane if it is easily punctured. It seems
that the membrane can be punctured even if there are no external
signs of damage to the jacket.

I guess if the thing that punctured it is very small you wouldn't see the
hole very easily. No idea how easily they puncture tho - a lot probably
depends on the fabric that covers the gortex lining - so cycling jackets,
being thinner, would puncture much more easily than walking jackets.

On the other hand I'm only saying all this 'cos it's Usenet and traditional
for people to wibble on about stuff they know nothing about ;-)

I have a 1987 Goretex jacket made for Mountain Equipment Co-op. I wore it
regularly around home & on canoe trips for about 8 years, then stopped using
it much because it was getting a bit snug. I didn't baby it & it never
leaked.
This year, I noticed a buildup of some debris inside the liner. When I
opened it up, I found it was all the tape & adhesive from the taped seams.
I gave it to my son & he wore it on a rather rainy canoe trip. It still
didn't leak despite the lack of tape on the seams.

Lloyd Bowles
www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc

Jim Walker said:

How strong is a gortex membrane? If your jacket does hit the branch
of a tree, is this usually enough to puncture the membrane?

In my experience, Gore-Tex (and similar products) tend to start leaking
after 2-3 years. I don't think it has anythin to do with punctures (or
other acts of violence), but just normal wear & tear.
Some jackets I've purpously never washed.

Now I'm going through what must at least my sixth jacket.
At this point my attitude is that such jackets are "rented", not bought!

A hint: I now use different jackets for everyday urban use and for
mountains/serious stuff.

Chris

"Jim Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How strong is a gortex membrane? If your jacket does hit the branch
of a tree, is this usually enough to puncture the membrane?

I have a motorcycle jacket that is about seven years old. It has a Gore-Tex
lining and still 100% waterproof. I use it every day for about 2 hours, in
all weathers. The outer is no longer even mildly water repellent, but the
Gore-Tex never lets in water. Nor do I get the build up of perspiration
inside the jacket that other people seem to complain of with them.
Motorcycling, especially in London, is physically tiring, not like driving a
car.

A walking jacket I bought about eight years ago seems to have burst a seam
about three years back. In really heavy weather I get wet on one shoulder.
I put that down to rucksack straps causing undue wear. At some point, I
will replace it, but it's only one shoulder, oh, and the rip in one pocket
caused by close proximity to barbed wire with rather too much alcohol inside
me.

My Brasher Superlites are still 100% waterproof after about three years use.
Motorcycle gloves last years.

So, I'd have to say that Gore-Tex is pretty damn good. I've never
experienced anything like you describe.

Have fun,
Paul

"Jim Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

About 3 years ago I bought a goretex jacket that said it was guaranteed
to keep you dry. My gortex jacket now leaks, so it was sent to Gore-tex
for testing. I was advised that the jacket is leaking due to scattered
puncture damage and that the jacket could not be repaired because the
puncture damage was too extensive. I was asked whether I had walked
through gorse bushes or other spikey vegetation. I explained that I had
not walked through, or sat on gorse bushes or other spikey vegetation.

Are you clumsy when eating with a knife and fork?

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

I've had several Goretex jackets down the years.
Some of them leak after a short while, some never do.
One trousers I had replaced twice. It leaked while cycling. I was told that
it was due to "abuse".
I got very cross with the man in the shop. I said
"I have never abused this trousers, have never damaged it, have in fact
seldom worn it and Goretex tell me it's abuse? " He could see that the
garment looked new. He got the message.

Don't take this [censored] from Goretex. A mountaineer whom I know, who's been
on top of Everest twice told me that at least half of them leak in the
guarantee period.

Go to the consumer association.

Jim Walker said:

Thanks Simon for this posting. Can you tell me why you would not
expect a goretex jacket to last for more than 2 years? What happens
to the membrane to stop it being waterproof? Will any brand of
jacket start leaking after 2-4 years of weekly use, I thought
goretex jackets were supposed to be superior to most other
waterproof jackets, that's why I paid a lot to get one!

As far as I've always understood it, the superiority is meant to lie
in the waterproofing and breathability of the jackets when compared
with those constructed from some less expensive materials, rather than
in the longevity of the jackets. I've not seen it claimed that they'll
last indefinitely.

I find that most items of clothing that I wear regularly gradually
deteriorate through normal usage and need to be replaced, including
ridiculously expensive suits etc that I need for work.

Quoted message said:

I have used my jacket once a fortnight over a period of 3 years,
but I am mystified as to why it should now have extensive puncture
damage.

I understand your frustration, but my own feeling - for what it's
worth - is that one might reasonably expect to have to replace a
Goretex/similar jacket after that sort of period, with that sort of
useage. I can't comment on the puncture damage point, though.

Best wishes,
--
Peewiglet

"Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Don't take this [censored] from Goretex. A mountaineer whom I know,
who's been on top of Everest twice told me that at least half of them
leak in the guarantee period.

I've heard this from a number of sources, one of who was the manager of an
outdoor shop. She claimed about 20-25% leak from new. Strangely enough,
this is one of the factors in their high price as they need to take account
of the high number of returns. Personally, I'd think [censored] quality control
would lower the price.

Graeme

Jim Walker said:

It was explained to me that the gore-tex guarantee does not cover
puncture damage, just as a car warranty does not cover dents you
get from running into posts etc. The only problem that I have with
this explanation is that there are no visible outside tears or holes in
the jacket. If I had rolled around in spikey vegetation, you would
expect to be able to see some external damage to the jacket.

The Goretex membrane is laminated to a "normal" face fabric, usually
nylon of some sort. As with most woven fabrics you can push a pin
through the weave and it will close up after you withdraw it, but the
membrane is effectively a very thin sheet of teflon with incredibly
small holes and if you push a pin through /that/ then it will leak
thereafter.

Quoted message said:

Is it possible that a goretex membrane could get puncture damage
from normal wear and use?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

How strong is a gortex membrane? If your jacket does hit the branch
of a tree, is this usually enough to puncture the membrane?

It's not that simple. The membrane itself is very fragile, but it's
laminated to a face fabric that is usually very tough. If you hit a
tree branch the face fabric should take the strain and the membrane
would be okay. Three layer Goretex is a sandwich between internal and
external face fabrics, two layer only has an outer and often has a light
liner (usually mesh) to add extra protection to the inside. 3 layer is
quite a bit tougher though, but at the expense of weight.

Quoted message said:

Goretex have offered to sell me a new jacket at a good discount, but
they say this is only a goodwill gesture and that the membrane has not
failed as a result of poor or faulty manufacture. Do you think this is
a satisfactory outcome where puncture damage is the cause of the
jacket leaking? Should I be supplied with a replacement jacket free
of charge? Thanks for your feedback.

I'd say that's an acceptable result.

I'd also add that "Guaranteed to keep you dry" is a marketing
catch-phrase (i.e., bollocks), and the only way to /guarantee/ dry is in
a full dry suit with uncomfortable wrist and neck seals and a price tag
in excess of £300, as sported by watersports folk. They'd be completely
impractical for walking or cycling. Marketing should be treated as what
it is (often not much different from creative lying).

If you like a bit of insulation from a waterproof you may want to look
at Paramo, which is unaffected by pinhole punctures. Downside is you're
stuck with a reasonably warm liner as part of the way the garment stays
waterproof, but lots of people like them (unfortunately not me, I get
too hot in them). See http://www.paramo.co.uk for details.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Jim Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

About 3 years ago I bought a goretex jacket that said it was guaranteed
to keep you dry. My gortex jacket now leaks, so it was sent to Gore-tex
for testing. I was advised that the jacket is leaking due to scattered
puncture damage and that the jacket could not be repaired because the
puncture damage was too extensive. I was asked whether I had walked
through gorse bushes or other spikey vegetation. I explained that I had
not walked through, or sat on gorse bushes or other spikey vegetation.

It was explained to me that the gore-tex guarantee does not cover
puncture damage, just as a car warranty does not cover dents you
get from running into posts etc. The only problem that I have with
this explanation is that there are no visible outside tears or holes in
the jacket. If I had rolled around in spikey vegetation, you would
expect to be able to see some external damage to the jacket.

Can anyone tell me what the usual guarantee given by the manufacturer
(W.L. Gore & Associates ?) is for a gore-tex membrane?

Is it possible that a goretex membrane could get puncture damage
from normal wear and use?

How strong is a gortex membrane? If your jacket does hit the branch
of a tree, is this usually enough to puncture the membrane?

Goretex have offered to sell me a new jacket at a good discount, but
they say this is only a goodwill gesture and that the membrane has not
failed as a result of poor or faulty manufacture. Do you think this is
a satisfactory outcome where puncture damage is the cause of the
jacket leaking? Should I be supplied with a replacement jacket free
of charge? Thanks for your feedback.

Jim

Probabably not much use practically in your present situation, but perhaps
for future - I have two Paramo jackets, one five years old and one
ten-eleven. Both are washed and reproofed as recommended (in washing
machine) and both are still waterproof, although I agree they can be a bit
warm in summer. They are also (to me anyway) much more comfortable to wear
than Gore-Tex.

Regards

Pat Macguire

Peewiglet <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Jim Walker said:

I have used my jacket once a fortnight over a period of 3 years,
but I am mystified as to why it should now have extensive puncture
damage.

That must be due to contact with something nasty, (barbed wire or tough
bramble) rather than normal wear and tear, surely?
I stuck a bit of Magic Tape from a stationers over a small tear in my
first Gortex jacket, and it lasted several years more.

Quoted message said:

I understand your frustration, but my own feeling - for what it's
worth - is that one might reasonably expect to have to replace a
Goretex/similar jacket after that sort of period, with that sort of
useage. I can't comment on the puncture damage point, though.

Apart from one year wearing a hideous orange cagoule, and a year or two
in a non-breathable jacket (yuk!), I have had three jackets in 30 years
of walking, and I tend to wear them for every day use in winter, to get
my money's worth out of them.

The first was a Sprayway Goretex, bought in the late 70s, and I still
have it and use it for example when cleaning the driveway with a high
pressure washer. It keeps me dry, but has lost its breatheability.

The second was an Abris, in Sympatex, and I still wore it this summer,
after ironing-on a patch where I ripped it on a fence. I got a
soaking in it last week during continuous drizzle on a hot, humid day,
but it is still good as a short term waterproof.

The new Goretex is a heavier jacket, less than 12 months old, but I will
be wearing it nearly every day throughout the winter, and expect it will
probably out-live me. :-)

Except for accidental physical damage, the only problem with Goretex
(IMO) is that it eventually loses the ability to breathe.
(And it's noisy).
--
Gordon

In article <[email hidden]>, Jim Walker
<URL:[email hidden]> wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Is it possible that a goretex membrane could get puncture damage
from normal wear and use?

How strong is a gortex membrane? If your jacket does hit the branch
of a tree, is this usually enough to puncture the membrane?

What you have to realise is that there are different sorts of material
that incorporate a Goretex membrane and they don't all offer the same
resistance to abrasion.

You need to match your requirements and expectations for the jacket to
the choice of material. For example some of my older Goretex jackets
were 3 layer "Taslan" which had a heavy duty protective layer on the
outer and inner surface. The advantage was that they were very hard
wearing and more abrasion proof. The disadvantage was that they were
much heavier and didn't transmit water vapour so readily. These jackets
lasted me more than 5 years of hard use in regular rock climbing,
mountaineering and skiing, but I eventually got fed up with the weight
and packed volume so I opted for a lighter Goretex XCR jacket. More
recently I have also gone for a Goretex "Paclite" jacket for summer use.
This is a very light material but is probably less abrasion and
puncture resistant than the XCR jacket.

Additionally I also have some Paramo "softshell" garments, and with
these it doesn't matter if you puncture the material on thorns etc as
they aren't reliant on an intact waterproof membrane. I have a Paramo
jacket which I regularly use for winter cycling to and from work, and
Paramo trousers that I use for winter skiing and ski-mountaineering
(although I still use the XCR jacket along with the Paramo trousers for
the skiing activities).

Quoted message said:

Goretex have offered to sell me a new jacket at a good discount, but
they say this is only a goodwill gesture and that the membrane has not
failed as a result of poor or faulty manufacture. Do you think this is
a satisfactory outcome where puncture damage is the cause of the
jacket leaking?

Yes that sounds like a satisfactory offer. Certainly depending upon the
particular material and the useage I would not be too surprised to find
a jacket showing signs of wear after 2 or more years of use.

Quoted message said:

Should I be supplied with a replacement jacket free of charge?

No I don't think so. If it has puncture holes now and leaks, and it
didn't leak earlier, then something has caused the damage in use and
this is unlikely to be a fault in the material.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your feedback.

Jim

Mike Clark, <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

In article <[email hidden]>, P and H Macguire
<URL:[email hidden]> wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Probabably not much use practically in your present situation, but
perhaps for future - I have two Paramo jackets, one five years old and
one ten-eleven. Both are washed and reproofed as recommended (in
washing machine) and both are still waterproof, although I agree they
can be a bit warm in summer. They are also (to me anyway) much more
comfortable to wear than Gore-Tex.

It's a different philosophy in use. Certainly if I know I am going to be
wearing the garment in wet and cold conditions all day then I'd opt for
Paramo as the more comfortable option. However if I want something
packed away in a rucksack and only needed for part of the day then the
lower weight and volume of a lightweight Goretex jacket is an advantage,
particularly when combined with a lightweight fleece in a layering
system. The problem with Paramo is that it can be too warm and bulky if
it's humid or you're exerting a lot of energy. For ski-touring I
compromise in that I wear Paramo trousers combined with a Goretex jacket
and a lightweight fleece. When skinning, particularly uphill, the jacket
is usually in the rucksack.

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

We gave our daughter a TNF jacket as a gift that was Goretex lined. The
first hiking trip she went on, she said it leaked. Took it back to the
store, and after the usual denial, and some negotiating, and sending back to
TNF, she got a replacement TNF Goretex jacket.

Took the second jacket which was never worn, to the kitchen sink, and turned
the sleeves inside-out, twisted closed the cuff, tied with a rubber band,
and filled the sleeve with water. The water seeped through the sleeve.

She gave up on Goretex jackets, and we were out several hundred dollars.
SHe has never bought a Goretex jacket. I have never bought a Goretex jacket
for my mountain trips, but instead rely on a non-breathable water-proof
Mountain Hardwear jacket.

As in the threads of this post, there is considerable differences in opinion
on whether Goretex works, as expected. A hiker I chatted with in the San
Juans on a rainey day "There is no bad weather, just bad technology".

Give up on the replacement, and use a technology that works consistantly.

Cheers,
Jim

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Goretex have offered to sell me a new jacket at a good discount, but
they say this is only a goodwill gesture and that the membrane has not
failed as a result of poor or faulty manufacture. Do you think this is
a satisfactory outcome where puncture damage is the cause of the
jacket leaking? Should I be supplied with a replacement jacket free
of charge? Thanks for your feedback.

Jim

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004