Garnedd Ugain or Crib y Ddysgl???

"Paul Cummings" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I used to call the second highest mountain in Wales Garnedd Ugain, then
someone convinced me that this was the name of the ridge and the summit

was

Quoted message said:

actually Crib y Ddysgl. December's Trail Magazine reverses these meanings
(Route 10, section 3).

So, what is the correct area for these two names and what, more

importantly,

Quoted message said:

is the name for this peak? And how do we know which is right?

I'm sure some Welsh person will confirm that "crib" is Welsh for narrow
ridge. (As in Crib Goch, narrow red ridge.)

Rightly or wrongly I had always understood Carnedd Ugain to be the name for
the mountain and Crib y Ddysgl to be the name for the local area at the
summit.

Gerald

"AndyP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul Cummings" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I used to call the second highest mountain in Wales Garnedd Ugain, then
someone convinced me that this was the name of the ridge and the summit

was

Quoted message said:

actually Crib y Ddysgl. December's Trail Magazine reverses these

meanings

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(Route 10, section 3).

So, what is the correct area for these two names and what, more

importantly,

Quoted message said:

is the name for this peak? And how do we know which is right?

I'm sure some Welsh person will confirm that "crib" is Welsh for narrow
ridge. (As in Crib Goch, narrow red ridge.)

Paul Cummings said:

I used to call the second highest mountain in Wales Garnedd Ugain,
then someone convinced me that this was the name of the ridge and the
summit was actually Crib y Ddysgl. December's Trail Magazine
reverses these meanings (Route 10, section 3).

So, what is the correct area for these two names and what, more
importantly, is the name for this peak? And how do we know which is
right?

I've always called it Crib y Ddysgl, and I believe that's the most
popular name, but technically I think that's incorrect.

Crib means ridge and obviously refers to the spiky ridge leading up to
the summit, rather than the summit itself. (In the case of Crib Goch
the summit is actually the high point of the ridge.)

Carnedd Ugain means I think "the cairn of twenty" (whatever that means).
Cairns (carnedds) are usually built on summits, so I believe this is the
correct name of the summit. Criby y Ddysgl refers to the ridge, not the
summit.

There is the question of what is the correct name for a summit, the
summit name or the mountain name. For example, is it Snowdon or Yr
Wyddfa? Cadair Idris or Penygadair? Plynlimon or Pen Pumlumon Fawr?
It seems that the summit name usually takes precedence.

Often though, many summits aren't named, so the list makers take the
name of a nearby feature, like Craig-las on Cadair Idris, which
technically refers to the cliff rather than the summit.

But how many people think of Craig Cwm Sere as the highest summit in the
Brecon Beacons? If the summit weren't named Pen y Fan we'd probably be
calling it Craig Cwm Sere.

Incidentally, on Cadair Idris we usually refer to Craig Cwm Amarch
instead of Mynydd Pencoed, since the latter is usually assumed to refer
to the lower south-westerly spot height, but if you think of the
meanings of the names, it should probably be called Mynydd Pencoed,
since that's the mountain name, rather than the cliff name. Mynydd
Pencoed probably just has two high points and the name should apply to
both.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Idris said:

Rightly or wrongly I had always understood Carnedd Ugain to be the
name for the mountain and Crib y Ddysgl to be the name for the local
area at the summit.

A carnedd is a cairn, typically built on a summit, so it's not really a
mountain name. A crib is a narrow ridge, and that's what obviously
leads up to the summit, but the summit itself isn't a narrow ridge.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:53:28 -0000, "Idris" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Rightly or wrongly I had always understood Carnedd Ugain to be the name for
the mountain and Crib y Ddysgl to be the name for the local area at the
summit.

Gerald

I have always known the hill as Carnedd Ugain.. obvious name for a
peak.. and the wonderful ridge down towards Crib Goch as Crib y
Ddysgl.. its more than worthy of being a Crib.

I backpacked it once, and as a result I had bagged Carnedd Ugain long
before Yr Wyddfa.. That was off route and it was bank holiday
Monday... Left it for another year...

(Route: Blaeanu Ffestiniog, Dolyweddelan, Capel Curig, Glyders,
Deiniolen, Llanberis, Llanberis' Tryfan, Llechog, Ugain, Crib Goch and
finished at the Pen y Gwryd.

One of the best walks I have done.

[censored] thing this hiraeth... I used to [censored] the old place off when it
was near, but I sure as hell miss Wales now.. Roll on Christmas.

I am staying in Scotland though :-)

Richard Webb

In article <[email hidden]>, RJ Webb
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

have always known the hill as Carnedd Ugain.. obvious name for a
peak.. and the wonderful ridge down towards Crib Goch as Crib y
Ddysgl.. its more than worthy of being a Crib.

The O.S. give the hill the higher status of Carnedd Ugain (font size)
while the Crib is relegated to a much smaller font.

I would say the hill is the Carnedd and the ridge the crib in this case.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

I'm sure some Welsh person will confirm that "crib" is Welsh for narrow
ridge. (As in Crib Goch, narrow red ridge.)

Actually, it means 'comb', and is thus the ridge itself rather
than a description thereof.
--
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is
probably the day that they start making vacuum cleaners."
--Doc in alt.privacy

Fran said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sure some Welsh person will confirm that "crib" is Welsh for
narrow ridge. (As in Crib Goch, narrow red ridge.)

Actually, it means 'comb', and is thus the ridge itself rather
than a description thereof.

Curiously, Welsh dictionaries often don't explain the meaning of certain
words when used in a topographical/landscape context. For example, a
dictionary will tell you that a fan is a peak, but in the Beacons, they
mean beacons, rather than peaks. A subtle distinction perhaps, but
there you go. Tryfan does *not* mean "Three Beacons".

It may well be the case that Crib Goch and others were named after the
fact that they were narrow and pointy, like an upside-down comb, but I
suspect that through long usage they have come to mean "narrow, pointy
ridges" in the context of landscapes, but somehow not recognised as such
in dictionaries. I've found many landscape names which aren't
satisfactorily explained in dictionaries.

For example, carreg means rock, yet many summits in the Beacons are
called carregs, and in this context it seems to mean "rocky summit"
rather than simply "stone". Red Stone doesn't make a lot of sense. Nor
does Fox Stone. Rocky summit of the Fox makes more sense. Likewise
craig means simply rock, but all the craigs I know are cliffs. But
shouldn't that be clogywn?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sure some Welsh person will confirm that "crib" is Welsh for narrow
ridge. (As in Crib Goch, narrow red ridge.)

Actually, it means 'comb', and is thus the ridge itself rather
than a description thereof.

You are perfectly correct Fran, but don't fall into the trap of thinking
a word has only one meaning. Consider the English "Well"

In Welsh "Pen" has several uses.

It is a question of context.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

It may well be the case that Crib Goch and others were named after the
fact that they were narrow and pointy, like an upside-down comb,

It depends which way up you're holding the comb.:-)

Consider a [censored]'s Comb. A similar arrangement as Crib Goch wouldn't you
say?
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

For example, carreg means rock, yet many summits in the Beacons are
called carregs, and in this context it seems to mean "rocky summit"
rather than simply "stone". Red Stone doesn't make a lot of sense. Nor
does Fox Stone. Rocky summit of the Fox makes more sense. Likewise
craig means simply rock, but all the craigs I know are cliffs. But
shouldn't that be clogywn?

P

Craig/crag/creag seems to be used throughout Highland Britain with the
meaning of exposed bedrock outcrops, usually steep. (In the Lakes the
non-steep rock outcrops are typically man or knott.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sure some Welsh person will confirm that "crib" is Welsh for narrow
ridge. (As in Crib Goch, narrow red ridge.)

Actually, it means 'comb', and is thus the ridge itself rather
than a description thereof.

You are perfectly correct Fran, but don't fall into the trap of thinking
a word has only one meaning. Consider the English "Well"

True - I was assuming that the narrowness and general
pointiness of Crib Goch was analogous to a comb.
--
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is
probably the day that they start making vacuum cleaners."
--Doc in alt.privacy

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

True - I was assuming that the narrowness and general
pointiness of Crib Goch was analogous to a comb.

Exactly right.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

Paul Saunders said:

Fran said:

Quoted message said:

I'm sure some Welsh person will confirm that "crib" is Welsh for
narrow ridge. (As in Crib Goch, narrow red ridge.)

Actually, it means 'comb', and is thus the ridge itself rather
than a description thereof.

Curiously, Welsh dictionaries often don't explain the meaning of certain
words when used in a topographical/landscape context. For example, a
dictionary will tell you that a fan is a peak, but in the Beacons, they
mean beacons, rather than peaks. A subtle distinction perhaps, but
there you go. Tryfan does *not* mean "Three Beacons".

Gaelic is similar.. Some hill words have everyday more common meanings
- like Coire meaning kettle or something similar.

Richard Webb

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Lots of wonderful explanation snipped...

Right, so, I can use both without getting anyone too upset with me, so long
as I don't use the OS misprint of Garnedd rather than Carnedd?

Or have I completely misunderstood today's Welsh lesson?

Languages were never my strong point. Give me a good number anytime. You
know where you are with a number. And leave the jokes out you smutty ones
at the back.

Have fun,
Paul

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Languages were never my strong point. Give me a good number anytime. You
know where you are with a number. And leave the jokes out you smutty ones
at the back.

You and I should team up. I'll handle the language side of
things and you can do the sums. I could never cope with
numbers.
--
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is
probably the day that they start making vacuum cleaners."
--Doc in alt.privacy

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Cummings
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Right, so, I can use both without getting anyone too upset with me, so long
as I don't use the OS misprint of Garnedd rather than Carnedd?

Tying not to be too pedantic. Carnedd is a feminine noun and on its own
is governed by an unseen indefinite article. If it is governed by the
definite article "y" it becomes Y Garnedd.

The plural doesn't mutate though so they become Y Carneddau

The Welsh language doesn't have an indefinite article.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

You and I should team up. I'll handle the language side of
things and you can do the sums. I could never cope with
numbers.

You can count up to five though - I've seen 'em. :-)
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

You and I should team up. I'll handle the language side of
things and you can do the sums. I could never cope with
numbers.

You can count up to five though - I've seen 'em. :-)

Two surely? My father taught me to count when I were a ickle
lass, "If you don't do such and such by the time I've counted
to three.... one, one and a quarter, one and a half, one and
three quarters, two...." So - how many have I got? Yes, you
guessed it - two! :-)
--
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is
probably the day that they start making vacuum cleaners."
--Doc in alt.privacy