Re: Soy is Safe.

Bruce Sinclair <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Chuck"

Quoted message said:

IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
their diet and for so many years?

Lack of options ?
How many years ?
Maybe they tink it tastes good ?

I posted a long infopack on soy.

Did anyone read it?

It has a lot of definitive information.

--
Oz

"Oz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Chuck"

Quoted message said:

IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their diet and for so many years?

Lack of options ?
How many years ?
Maybe they tink it tastes good ?

I posted a long infopack on soy.

Did anyone read it?

Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
their stocks.

Chuck

Quoted message said:

It has a lot of definitive information.

--
Oz

In article said:

"Oz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Chuck"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
>of their diet and for so many years?

Lack of options ?
How many years ?
Maybe they tink it tastes good ?

I posted a long infopack on soy. Did anyone read it?

G'day Oz,

Didn't see your contribution, but this article motivated me to do a
google on 'soybean toxicity' (being a fair-minded, unbiased observer
of the thread ;-) and I stumbled across this site which has a long
essay on the subject (about 33 pages of it, according to "File/Print
Preview"😉. Don't know how reliable it is, but I did detect a smidgen
of confused cause and effect.

<>http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm>

They quote one study of Japanese/American men which "found that the
men who ate the most tofu during mid-life had up to 2.4 times the risk
of later developing Alzheimer's disease. Lead researcher Dr. Lon R.
White said that men who ate tofu at least twice weekly showed brain
aging about five years faster than those who seldom ate tofu."

This is clearly [censored] about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
[censored]!

Quoted message said:

Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
their stocks.

Quoted message said:

It has a lot of definitive information.

Cheers, Phred.

--
[email hidden]

Chuck R. said:

"Oz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Chuck"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>their diet and for so many years?

Lack of options ?
How many years ?
Maybe they tink it tastes good ?

I posted a long infopack on soy.

Did anyone read it?

Yes I did,

[censored]. Chuck doesn't read. The fact that Chuck often misrepresents
what others actually write proves it.

Quoted message said:

And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
soy or soy products.

You clueless idiot! People have only pointed out that Asians don't eat
as much soy as Westerners do in the same form that Westerners eat it.
Did you bother reading the links offered to you?

The estimated amount of soy protein consumed from these sources
was 8.00 ± 4.95 g/day for men and 6.88 ± 4.06 g/day for women
(Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kurisu Y, Shimizu H; J Nutr 1998,
128:209-13).... According to KC Chang, editor of Food in Chinese
Culture, the total caloric intake due to soy in the Chinese diet
in the 1930's was only 1.5%, compared with 65% for pork.
http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm

We pointed out studies showing that soy consumption in Asia is
actually much lower than claimed—averaging 10 grams per person,
less than two teaspoons.
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html

Etc.

Quoted message said:

Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
made in Asian countries, not here.

Made in Asia from US soy. Guess why, numbnuts. Do you think their
agricultural inefficiency in comparison to the size of their population
just might play a role? (And vice versa from our end: we grow soy and
grains much more efficiently than most of the world and our population
is growing primarily because of immigration.)

Quoted message said:

These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
their stocks.

No, they do not. The biggest hurdle for import grocers involves a smooth
stream of supply from suppliers because of customs and transportation
issues. That hurdle has gotten increasingly smaller than it was when you
worked in the soy fields 30 years ago thanks to trade agreements and
improvements in technology and shipping.

Phred said:

Didn't see your contribution, but this article motivated me to do a
google on 'soybean toxicity' (being a fair-minded, unbiased observer
of the thread ;-) and I stumbled across this site which has a long
essay on the subject (about 33 pages of it, according to "File/Print
Preview"😉. Don't know how reliable it is, but I did detect a smidgen
of confused cause and effect.

<>http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm>

They quote one study of Japanese/American men which "found that the
men who ate the most tofu during mid-life had up to 2.4 times the risk
of later developing Alzheimer's disease. Lead researcher Dr. Lon R.
White said that men who ate tofu at least twice weekly showed brain
aging about five years faster than those who seldom ate tofu."

This is clearly [censored] about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
[censored]!

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia and
Azheimer's disease.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

--
Juhana

Wow!! you are so f*****g smart it must almost hurt( bet you go to bed with a
headache every night) but then why do you have to suggest everyone else is
stupid just to verify how smart you are. Just whom are you trying to
convince.. And, just to remind you, some of what you post is true but more
is just plain fertilizer (I don't use it anymore cause I dont grow soy now)

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chuck R. said:

"Oz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair <[email hidden]> writes

>In article <[email hidden]>, "Chuck"
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large

part

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

>>their diet and for so many years?
>
>Lack of options ?
>How many years ?
>Maybe they tink it tastes good ?

I posted a long infopack on soy.

Did anyone read it?

Yes I did,

[censored]. Chuck doesn't read. The fact that Chuck often misrepresents
what others actually write proves it.

Quoted message said:

And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager

of a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest

exporter of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily

bound

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the

literature

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't

eat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

soy or soy products.

You clueless idiot! People have only pointed out that Asians don't eat
as much soy as Westerners do in the same form that Westerners eat it.
Did you bother reading the links offered to you?

The estimated amount of soy protein consumed from these sources
was 8.00 ± 4.95 g/day for men and 6.88 ± 4.06 g/day for women
(Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kurisu Y, Shimizu H; J Nutr 1998,
128:209-13).... According to KC Chang, editor of Food in Chinese
Culture, the total caloric intake due to soy in the Chinese diet
in the 1930's was only 1.5%, compared with 65% for pork.
http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm

We pointed out studies showing that soy consumption in Asia is
actually much lower than claimed—averaging 10 grams per person,
less than two teaspoons.
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html

Etc.

Quoted message said:

Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
made in Asian countries, not here.

Made in Asia from US soy. Guess why, numbnuts. Do you think their
agricultural inefficiency in comparison to the size of their population
just might play a role? (And vice versa from our end: we grow soy and
grains much more efficiently than most of the world and our population
is growing primarily because of immigration.)

Quoted message said:

These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
their stocks.

No, they do not. The biggest hurdle for import grocers involves a smooth
stream of supply from suppliers because of customs and transportation
issues. That hurdle has gotten increasingly smaller than it was when you
worked in the soy fields 30 years ago thanks to trade agreements and
improvements in technology and shipping.

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phred wrote:

snippage...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is clearly [censored] about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
[censored]!

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia
and
Azheimer's disease.
================

Now, relate that to the [censored] that is produced and sold in the US. It is not
the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with conmprehension too,
huh?

They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And lastly, they
eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is responsible for all the
'good?' Agenda driving are you?

Quoted message said:

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

--
Juhana

Chuck R. <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Oz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I posted a long infopack on soy.

Did anyone read it?

Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
their stocks.

What's that got to do with what I posted?

--
Oz

rick etter said:

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phred wrote:

snippage...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is clearly [censored] about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
[censored]!

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
dementia and
Azheimer's disease.

Quoted message said:

Now, relate that to the [censored] that is produced and sold in the US. It
is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
conmprehension too, huh?

No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat texturized soy
protein, which might not be so healthy.

Quoted message said:

They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?

I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as tofu and with
diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not dangerous
either. The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That is
a clear advantage.

--
Juhana

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rick etter said:

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phred wrote:

snippage...

Quoted message said:

>
> This is clearly [censored] about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
> [censored]!

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
dementia and
Azheimer's disease.

Quoted message said:

Now, relate that to the [censored] that is produced and sold in the US. It
is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
conmprehension too, huh?

No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat texturized
soy
protein, which might not be so healthy.

==================
LOL Which was the discussion I was in. The inplication that soy is soy,
and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all they needed to
do was switch to tofu meat substitutes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?

I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as tofu
and with
diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not dangerous
either.

==================
Really? That proof is where?

The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That is

Quoted message said:

a clear advantage.

--
Juhana

rick etter said:

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rick etter said:

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Phred wrote:

snippage...

>>
>> This is clearly [censored] about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat
>> that [censored]!
>
> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
> dementia and
> Azheimer's disease.

Quoted message said:

Now, relate that to the [censored] that is produced and sold in the US.
It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
conmprehension too, huh?

No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat
texturized soy
protein, which might not be so healthy.

==================
LOL Which was the discussion I was in. The inplication that soy is
soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all
they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?

I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as
tofu and with
diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not
dangerous either.

==================
Really? That proof is where?

The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That
is

Quoted message said:

a clear advantage.

--
Juhana

--
Juhana

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rick etter said:

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rick etter wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> Phred wrote:
>
> snippage...
>
>>>
>>> This is clearly [censored] about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat
>>> that [censored]!
>>
>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>> dementia and
>> Azheimer's disease.

> Now, relate that to the [censored] that is produced and sold in the US.
> It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
> conmprehension too, huh?

No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat
texturized soy
protein, which might not be so healthy.

==================
LOL Which was the discussion I was in. The inplication that soy is
soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all
they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes.

Quoted message said:

> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?

I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as
tofu and with
diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not
dangerous either.

==================
Really? That proof is where?

The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That
is

Quoted message said:

a clear advantage.

--
Juhana

--
Juhana

=============
Forget something?

rick etter said:

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rick etter said:

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Phred wrote:

snippage...

>>
>> This is clearly [censored] about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat
>> that [censored]!
>
> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
> dementia and
> Azheimer's disease.

Quoted message said:

Now, relate that to the [censored] that is produced and sold in the US.
It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
conmprehension too, huh?

No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat
texturized soy
protein, which might not be so healthy.

LOL Which was the discussion I was in.

Are you drunk?

Quoted message said:

The inplication that soy is
soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all
they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes.

Harvard university makes a clear distinction between processed soy products and
other soy products and gives a recommendation:

"Eat soy in moderation. Soybeans, tofu, and other soy-based foods are an
excellent alternative to red meat. But don't go overboard. Two to four servings
a week is a good target. And stay away from supplements that contain
concentrated soy protein or soy extracts, such as isoflavones."

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?

I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as
tofu and with
diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not
dangerous either.

Really? That proof is where?

There is epidemilogical evidence from the studies of Okinawan elders that eating
a diet loaded with vegetables, tofu and fish prevents dementia and Alheimer
disease better than Western diets. There is less dementia and Alzheimer disease
in the Okinawa than in Western countries.

Quoted message said:

The isoflavones in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That
is a clear advantage.

--
Juhana

Bruce Sinclair said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"

Quoted message said:

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
dementia and Azheimer's disease.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and
effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of dementia
and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of soy?

--
Juhana

In article said:

Bruce Sinclair <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Chuck"

Quoted message said:

IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
their diet and for so many years?

Lack of options ?
How many years ?
Maybe they tink it tastes good ?

I posted a long infopack on soy.

Did anyone read it?

Probably not. 🙂

Quoted message said:

It has a lot of definitive information.

As you say there is much information out there. Pity some people seem only
able to read some of it 🙂

Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article said:

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia and
Azheimer's disease.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and
effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Hint. Using epidemiology, you can show conclusively that smoking is good for
you or that fat is bad for you. You just to select the right data 🙂

Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article said:

Wow!! you are so f*****g smart it must almost hurt( bet you go to bed with a
headache every night) but then why do you have to suggest everyone else is
stupid just to verify how smart you are. Just whom are you trying to
convince.. And, just to remind you, some of what you post is true but more
is just plain fertilizer (I don't use it anymore cause I dont grow soy now)

We can only go by what we read. From what we read, stupid (or perhaps
wilfully ignorant) is a fair assement.
... and now you take to top posting ? ... absolute proof 🙂

Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article said:

There is epidemilogical evidence from the studies of Okinawan elders that
eating

I knew it 🙂

Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article said:

Bruce Sinclair said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"

Quoted message said:

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
dementia and Azheimer's disease.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and
effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of
dementia
and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of soy?

You miss the point completely, as expected. 🙂 Epidemiology does not
provide a mechanism, only a relationship. It only looks at the 2 things ...
not all the things that might be meaningful.
Causality is neither implied, nor meant. The only thing it can do for us is
to show "real scientists" where to look for why this might be 🙂 ... and as
a question asker, it is often quite good.
It does not, however, answer any questions on its own. Anyone that believes
it does is deluded 🙂

..

Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

Oz said:

Chuck R. <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Oz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I posted a long infopack on soy.

Did anyone read it?

Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
their stocks.

What's that got to do with what I posted?

Not a damn thing, but that doesn't stop old windbags from shooting the
bull about stuff that happened thirty years ago.