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Upgrading Coker Wheelset

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7 January 2005
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  1. I have had my Coker for a year or so and ride it everyday, I literally
    don't leave home without it as all my classes, the store, etc. are all
    close enough to my house. I tell people that they can check if I am
    home by just seeing if my Coker is on the front porch. My coker is
    mostly stock, just upgraded cranks, peddles and an airseat.

    I got off to a rocky start, when I first got the coker the cranks
    worked loose, so I tightened them, only to discover that they now
    touched the coker frame. After over a month of going back and forth
    with Unicycle.com we finally got things worked out and my coker has
    been great ever since.

    Except the wheel strength. Coming off a curb late last year the rim
    torked underneath me, went back to almost true but alarming
    nonetheless. I trued the rim again and was a little more gentle,
    however it tacoed several months later. I have trued the rim again with
    professional help, and now am very aware that the wheel is not really
    strong enough and can certainly feel it flex and bend slightly in
    certain situations.

    So I want to upgrade.
    After reading on here I think the best option would be the airfoil rim,
    the Unicycle.com super-wide hub, and tom miller stainless spokes.
    Is it true that the upgraded coker wheelset that unicycle.com sells
    does not have the wider hub as they show in the specs, or is this old
    information?
    Has anyone had any success ordering a built wheelset from them with the
    airfoil rim, wide hub, and stock spokes?

    I would prefer the tom miller spokes but would rather have someone else
    with more experience build the wheel for me. Would the best way to this
    be to have unicycle.com ship the rim and hub to a wheelbuilder and have
    tom also ship his spokes to the wheelbuilder, then have everything
    shipped to me. Anyone have any experience with this, or know what the
    costs would be. I'm not even sure what the cost of the Tom miller
    spokes would be.

    I would love any help you guys could offer, or any suggestions.
    Thank You
    Lebn Schuyler

  2. You need to talk to U-Turn, he makes the "strongest coker wheel in the
    world". Airfoil rim, stainles spokes, and a wider hub.

    I'm having one made by him right now.😄 :eek: 😎

    --
    brian.slater - Nellfurtiti, the Wonder Cat

    Brian C. Slater
    AKA: Snoopy

    Ok, I am now officially in my normal state of -advanced- confusion.
    Don't try to confuse me, it won't make any difference.

    "To not decide is to decide" - undecided
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  3. Not that this will be too helpful, but I concur with you about your
    observation that the wheelset that has the airfoil rim looks like it
    uses the narrower hub. I just bought the deluxe Coker and it indeed
    uses the wide hub along with the airfoil rim. It might take a little
    longer, but I'd bet that they would work with you on that. The
    Drummonds seem to be really top notch folks and although I haven't tried
    to get things done differently from what they offer, I'd bet they'd be
    willing to do it (Kovachi built, wide hub, with nice stainless spokes).
    Hope this helps or encourages.

    --Bob

    --
    unidaddy - head over wheel
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  4. The product pictures at Unicycle.com can be out of date (and often are).
    I'm certain that you could get the Airfoil wheel combo with the new
    super wide Unicycle.com hub. That wheel probably already comes standard
    with the super wide hub now.

    The Unicycle.com wheels come with the stock Coker spokes. Unicycle.com
    doesn't carry the stainless steel Tom Miller spokes.

    I don't know how much of a difference it makes to go with the Tom Miller
    spokes vs. the stock Coker spokes. You can tension the SS Tom Miller
    spokes tighter which will give you a stronger wheel. So the SS Tom
    Miller spokes can make for a stronger wheel if the wheel is built
    well.

    If your plan is to ever run a brake then definitely go for the SS Tom
    Miller spokes and the best wheel build you can get. Anything less and
    you'll have brake rubbing issues because the wheel will flex. And even
    with the SS Tom Miller spokes, a super wide hub, and an Airfoil rim,
    you'll need a very good wheel build to eliminate wheel flex that can
    cause the rim to rub the brake pads. I had my wheel built by a local
    wheel builder. It was a good wheel build, but wasn't tight enough. I
    had some brake rubbing problems. I took it back and he tensioned the
    spokes even tighter and the brake rubbing went away.

    Cost for the Tom Miller spokes is going to vary. Tom Miller is like
    that, and the cost will depend on machine setup time and other factors.
    General ballpark is about $2 per spoke plus shipping. It's a good idea
    to have a few extra spokes on hand in case you break a spoke. So figure
    on 40 spokes. Then you're going to need some special nipples that you
    can get from Semcycle USA. They're the nipples they use for their big
    wheel. The nipples are about $0.25 each plus shipping, I think. It was
    over a year and a half ago that I ordered everything so my memory is a
    bit hazy.

    For the Airfoil rim and a super wide hub you can use the standard stock
    Coker length spokes. You just go with a four cross instead of a three
    cross. Magically the spoke length works out.

    --
    john_childs - Guinness Mojo

    john_childs (at) hotmail (dot) com
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  5. Quoted message said:

    *I got off to a rocky start, when I first got the coker the cranks
    worked loose, so I tightened them, only to discover that they now
    touched the coker frame. After over a month of going back and forth
    with Unicycle.com we finally got things worked out and my coker has
    been great ever since.

    *

    That was likely due to a bearing that was not pressed on all the way or
    a bearing that was slipping on the hub. The bearings on a standard
    unicycle are just pressed on the axle. The press fit can slip and then
    you get problems with the wheel being off center in the frame (and
    likely rubbing) and/or the frame rubbing the cranks.

    The fix is to use Loctite sleeve retainer when pressing on the bearings.
    The Loctite will make a stronger hold than just a plain old press fit.
    The high strength Loctite sleeve retainer (part no. 640) works well.
    Even though it says high strength the bearings are still removable when
    it comes time to replace the bearings.

    Clean off any grease and dirt from the hub before applying the Loctite.
    Apply the Loctite. Press on the bearing. Let the Loctite cure for 6 or
    8 hours. Go ride.

    When you get the new wheel I would recommend using Loctite when putting
    the new bearings on. It will save you the trouble of needing to do it
    later when the bearings eventually slip. And it's no fun to have your
    bearings slip midway into a long ride (that happened to me when I first
    got my stock Coker).

    --
    john_childs - Guinness Mojo

    john_childs (at) hotmail (dot) com
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  6. Wow guys thanks for the quick and helpful responses. I haven't really
    posted on this board before but I watch it, I'm impressed. I'm going to
    contact the guys at unicycle.com and I'll also send an email to u-turn.
    Has anyone had any experience with the SS tom miller spokes in
    comparison to the stock spokes? I don't have much experience with
    different unicycles and don't know how much of a difference it would
    make. There really are no hills where I am currently living, Walla
    Walla, so I don't think I am looking at putting on brakes any time
    soon. It sounds like the upgraded spokes would take some weight off, be
    a bit stronger, and would allow the spokes to be tightened more. I'm
    just don't really know if the difference is enough to be noticeable as
    I have never really tried anything but what I have.

    Also, do you guys have any suggestions on what to do with a stock coker
    wheelset? It has been used and I would like something stronger so I can
    push my riding further, but I think it would still be fine for someone
    learning or who doesn't plan to be going down stairs, off-road, or any
    thing like that. I was thinking of buying a frame for it and selling it
    to one of the other unicyclists here at school, but it seems like you
    can't buy the stock frame on it's own. The custom frames are a little
    out of my price range, although it would be nice someday.

    I would love to get this wheel upgrade for around or below $200 but I
    don't know if that is really possible now, shipped on unicycle.com it's
    about $270 before tax. It's strange, pricing out the components on
    unicycle.com comes to about $145 for the super wide hub, the airfoil
    rim, and stock spokes. Kovachiwheels say they charge $30 to build a
    wheel for you. It seems like buying everything together they would give
    you a discount... I imagine I am just missing something though, I seem
    to do that a lot.
    Any of you looking to sell a stock coker frame? Or want to buy a used
    stock coker wheelset?
    Damn it's exciting to think about where I could take my coker if I
    didn't have to worry about hurting it. Now I just need to get the
    torker 24" DX (I know not very flashy, but good and most importantly
    somewhat affordable) and maybe the 5' TX for the juggling club here and
    I'll be set.

    Thanks again guys.
    Lebn Schuyler

  7. John_childs,
    wow, you posted a second response before I responded to your first.
    You are right about the bearing slipping, and right about the solution.
    That is what I ended up having to do, unfortunately it took a very long
    time to get there. the guys over at unicycle.com must have had
    something going on because it took forever to get help from them at
    first, however once we where communicating they were very helpful and I
    have the feeling that the negative aspects of my experience with them
    where not the norm. I will definitely apply the loctite to the
    hub/bearings on my new wheel, I learned that the hard way.
    lebn schuyler

  8. I've been wanting to get the airfoil rim. Unicycle.com doesnt have any
    in stock right now though. I guess I'll give them a call in the
    morning.

    What are good square tapered cranks that dont cost more then $100 that
    would be good for muni too so I can switch them out. I weigh 210 so it
    would have to be strong.

    Also what do you think of putting one of the new kh hubs in it? The hub
    is plenty strong but its kinda narrow so that would make the wheel over
    all less strong. Right?

    --
    Tim - Jelly Bean Eater

    Tim 'Braun' (http://www.tim.com.mk/izdanija/1/189.jpg)

    Jagur's my main man.
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  9. Tim said:

    *I've been wanting to get the airfoil rim. Unicycle.com doesnt have
    any in stock right now though. I guess I'll give them a call in the
    morning.

    What are good square tapered cranks that dont cost more then $150 that
    would be good for muni too so I can switch them out. I weigh 210 so it
    would have to be strong. Black widows aren't strong enough.

    Also what do you think of putting one of the new kh hubs in it? The
    hub is plenty strong but its kinda narrow so that would make the wheel
    over all less strong. Right? *

    --
    Tim - Jelly Bean Eater

    Tim 'Braun' (http://www.tim.com.mk/izdanija/1/189.jpg)

    Jagur's my main man.
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  10. Hey Lebn, I don't know too many folks with that name, so are you the ice
    skater from Bellingham, WA??
    Pete P.

    --
    unisk8r - One Wheel Wander
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  11. Quoted message said:

    *John_childs,
    wow, you posted a second response before I responded to your first.
    You are right about the bearing slipping, and right about the
    solution.
    That is what I ended up having to do, unfortunately it took a very
    long
    time to get there. the guys over at unicycle.com must have had
    something going on because it took forever to get help from them at
    first, however once we where communicating they were very helpful and
    I
    have the feeling that the negative aspects of my experience with
    them
    where not the norm. I will definitely apply the loctite to the
    hub/bearings on my new wheel, I learned that the hard way.
    lebn schuyler *

    I'm just passing along some knowledge I learned the hard way through
    experience. I didn't know that bearing slipping was a problem on
    unicycles until it happened to me midway into a 20+ mile ride on my old
    stock Coker. Now I know. It's a lot more fun to fix problems like that
    before they happen rather than after.

    I've had the bearings slip on three unicycle (stock Coker, Pashley muni,
    and DM freestyle). Unfortunately the bearings don't come from the
    factory Loctited. It's something that you have to do yourself.

    The wheel builds from Unicycle.com are a bit over priced. I don't know
    why the custom built wheels are so expensive from them. When you add up
    the cost of the parts and figure the cost of the wheel build in that
    cost it gets to be an expensive wheel build.

    I get my wheels built locally. I found a great local wheel builder who
    builds the best wheels I've seen, other than the U-Turn built wheels.
    My local wheel builds are about $30 for labor plus the cost of parts.
    Works out to be much cheaper than the unicycle.com custom built wheels
    and I get a better wheel.

    The trick is finding a good local wheel builder. Not all bike shops are
    good at building wheels. Ask a local bike club for recommendations.
    Find out where the freeriders and tandem bike riders go for their wheel
    builds. That's where you want to go. Don't just go to a random bike
    shop. Let the wheel builder know that unicycle wheels get a lot of side
    loads that bikes don't usually get. The spokes need to be tight and
    properly stress relieved so the wheel can take those loads.

    You should be able to find a local wheel builder who builds good wheels.
    You'll need to bring in the Coker frame along with the wheel. The
    wheel builder will need to use the frame as a wheel building jig. The
    Coker wheel won't fit in the regular wheel building jig. You'll also
    need to have the bearings on the hub so the hub will fit in the frame so
    the wheel can be built.

    The U-Turn wheel is going to be way out of your price range. His is the
    price is no object, quality is everything, it must be perfect kind of
    wheel build. You pay for that.

    A little background on the Airfoil rim. Unicycle.com had the Airfoil
    rim custom made and they paid for the custom work. They found a company
    able to make the rim. It's an existing downhill rim extrusion turned in
    to a 36" rim rather than a 24" or 26". Unicycle.com is the reason that
    we have an upgraded Coker rim. Otherwise we'd still be stuck with the
    stock rim. For that I'm very grateful.
    (I had to mention that to balance out the comments about their
    overpriced wheel builds <g>😉

    Unicycle.com seems to be out of stock on the Airfoil rim and Coker
    spokes. I don't know what's up with that. I hope they'll be getting
    new stock soon. They're our only source of Airfoil rims. U-Turn
    probably has some Airfoil rims in stock for his wheels, but other than
    that we'll be in a bit of a dry period till Unicycle.com gets some new
    stock.

    Hopefully someone can chime in with the pros and cons of the Tom Miller
    SS spokes vs. the stock Coker spokes. My gut feeling is that for your
    needs the stock spokes will be fine. But that's just a gut feeling and
    not based on experience.

    --
    john_childs - Guinness Mojo

    john_childs (at) hotmail (dot) com
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  12. john_childs said:

    *Hopefully someone can chime in with the pros and cons of the Tom
    Miller SS spokes vs. the stock Coker spokes. My gut feeling is that
    for your needs the stock spokes will be fine. But that's just a gut
    feeling and not based on experience. *

    IMHO, one of the top three upgrades on a Coker:
    #1 Airfoil rim
    #2 Tubeless kit
    #3 Tommy Miller SS spokes

    The spokes are just so much lighter (enough for me to notice!)and look
    cooler because they dont' rust. I believe they are probably as strong
    if not stronger, but that will depend on your wheelbuild. If only they
    came double butted as well.

    As for the hub- if you're a heavy abusive rider using brakes on your
    Coker then I guess a widened hub is good. I use a unicycle.com hub
    which works well for me- lot's of off-road racing/distance touring, no
    brakes. I prefer a narrower hub and q factor. I only weigh 60kg
    though.

    Good luck

    Ken

    --
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  13. unisk8r,
    wow, yeah I did ice skate in Bellingham many years ago. I haven't
    really skated in a long time though probably not since I was like
    twelve or thirteen, so about nine years ago. So would you be the head
    of the speed skating back then? I can't think of many Pete's from when
    I played hockey. Now it's mostly Juggling, Unicycling, and Disc Golf
    for me as far as hobbies go.

    and ken,
    you say you prefer a narrower hub and q factor? anyone mind explaining
    what that is or why someone would prefer a narrower hub. Also what's
    this tubeless kit? Have people really had success with this? It seems
    like from bikes that going tubeless has always been more of a hassle
    than it's worth unless you are racing and really need to save the
    weight and don't mind having to do maintenance on it all the time.
    thanks again guys for your help.
    -lebn

  14. Quoted message said:

    * Now it's mostly Juggling, Unicycling, and Disc Golf
    for me as far as hobbies go.
    *

    Those are 3 great hobbies - personal favorites, all.

    About the Coker wheel upgrades, I read through and John and Ken covered
    everything you need. I agree that the airfoil rim by itself is the
    biggest single upgrade. But the whole package (especially if built by
    U-Turn) is overall a much bigger upgrade.

    Good luck,
    Nathan

    --
    nathan - BIG rides: Muni & Coker
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  15. Quoted message said:

    *and ken,
    you say you prefer a narrower hub and q factor? anyone mind explaining
    what that is or why someone would prefer a narrower hub. Also what's
    this tubeless kit?*


    Ken is what you might call a high-performance Coker rider. He races it
    and has used it in a 24-hour *SOLO* mountain bike race. So minor
    differences are much more meaningful to him than they might be to
    average commuters (like me).

    Ken was willing to forego almost his entire seat for the MUni and 10k
    races at Unicon in Japan last summer. He had a carbon seat base with
    bumpers and some foam tape on it—nothing else. That's serious
    dedication! And no, he admits it was not comfortable. Picture:
    http://unicycling.smugmug.com/gallery/235111/6/9137539

    So for a guy pedaling super fast, a narrower hub might be preferred for
    maximum performance. The Q-factor is the side-to-side distance between
    your feet. Narrower is generally considered to be better for
    performance, but wider makes for a stronger wheel. The biggest weakness
    in the stock Coker wheel is the narrowness of the hub. As wheels get
    bigger, they inherently get weaker. Increasing the space between the hub
    flanges gives the wheel much better rigidity, and makes it much more
    resistant to taco-ing.

    I can't speak for the tubeless kit, as I have no experience with it.
    Obviously it works for Ken, who in addition to being a high performance
    rider, also lives where parts are probably expensive, and take a long
    time to get there (NZ). So his advice is well taken. For me, my commute
    to work is intended for exercise, so a heavy wheel is just fine.

    --
    johnfoss - Walkin' on the edge

    John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone
    "jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com

    "Read the rules!" -- 'IUF Rulebook'
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  16. Lebn, even if you're still up north, feel free to subscribe to the Puget
    Sound area unicyclers' e-list. Just send an email with "subscribe" in
    the header to:
    <[email hidden]>

    And btw, I agree that the Airfoil rim is pretty much a necessity.

    --
    unisk8r - One Wheel Wander
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  17. Uh...what John said :p

    The thread about performing a tubeless conversion is well covered
    here:
    http://tinyurl.com/3qjdk

    I've now had several months riding on the Stans Tubeless kit and it's
    great- no punctures, no need to keep pumping it up (anymore than a tubed
    kit), great traction especially off-road, lighter and rolls better than
    a normal Coker.

    If you want to stay tubed but drop some rotating weight, just try using
    a 29'er inner tube instead. It's so cheap and easy to do I reckon that
    everybody should do it.

    Ken

    --
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    o-kO
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  18. Oops, I need to add this thread about Tubeless Coker too- it's got
    useful instructions and also gives credit to Dirtsurfer, who was the
    first person I'm aware of to try it out:
    http://tinyurl.com/5vne8

    Ken

    --
    GizmoDuck - NZUNI

    o-kO
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  19. Quoted message said:

    *
    and ken,
    you say you prefer a narrower hub and q factor? anyone mind
    explaining
    what that is or why someone would prefer a narrower hub. Also what's
    this tubeless kit? Have people really had success with this? It
    seems
    like from bikes that going tubeless has always been more of a hassle
    than it's worth unless you are racing and really need to save the
    weight and don't mind having to do maintenance on it all the time.
    thanks again guys for your help.
    -lebn *

    I wouldn't worry too much about Q-factor unless you're super obsessive
    about fit and ergonomics or you're going for high performance or long
    distance rides. For recreational riding the differences in Q-factor
    don't make much difference for most people.

    Here's a basic definition of Q-factor:
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_q.html#qfactor
    And an article with a picture showing the Q-factor measurement on a bike
    crankset:
    http://tinyurl.com/4ml2x

    On a bike it has more to do with proper fit. Some people have wide hips
    and others have narrow hips. There are other factors as well. It's
    only really an issue with people who put in a lot of miles on a bike and
    who want to really fine tune their bike fit.

    On a unicycle a narrower Q-factor will give you less flop forces on the
    wheel as you pedal. The lower Q-factor can help you keep the wheel
    going in more of a straight line and less of a serpentine wiggly "s"
    pattern as you ride. Particularly at high pedaling RPMs under hard
    acceleration. For example, during a 100 meter sprint race where you
    accelerate very hard and then max out at over 200+ RPMs. For that type
    of racing a narrow Q-factor is theoretically better for performance
    reasons.

    When I switched to my new Coker with the super wide hub, it took me one
    ride to get used to the new wider setup. It hasn't caused me any
    negative effects. No new joint problems due to the different fit.
    All's good. I haven't noticed that my riding has gotten more wiggly
    (the serpentine "s" or "~" tire track thing) with the wide hub. I'm a
    recreational Coker rider. Ken (GizmoDuck) is a performance Coker rider.
    Different riding styles. There is no way that I could keep up with
    Ken on a Coker ride. It would be like going on a bike ride with Lance
    Armstrong.

    On things dealing with fit it is a personal issue. Q-factor on a Coker
    may be a bigger issue for some people than others. Shorter people are
    going to have a more exaggerated bow-legged stance on the wide hub than
    taller riders.

    Short answer is that it is probably not something that you need to worry
    about.

    The advantage to the wider hub is that the wheel is stronger. That
    makes up for a lot.

    I'm not going to try the tubeless tire thing on the Coker. Too much
    trouble. More problems and issues than is worth it for me. I am,
    however, considering the switch to a 29er tube. You get the weight loss
    but without the fussy tubeless issues.

    Oh, and while we're talking about wheel stuff, check out this thread:
    'Easy Coker Airfoil tire change' (http://tinyurl.com/6rqtk). The Rox
    rim strip made a big difference in how easy it was for me to install the
    Coker tire on the Airfoil rim.

    --
    john_childs - Guinness Mojo

    john_childs (at) hotmail (dot) com
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  20. john_childs said:

    *I'm not going to try the tubeless tire thing on the Coker. Too much
    trouble. More problems and issues than is worth it for me. I am,
    however, considering the switch to a 29er tube. You get the weight
    loss but without the fussy tubeless issues.

    *

    John! I'm really surprised! Too many issues? You have to be one of the
    most obsessive technical gurus on RSU.
    It's one of the most straightforward upgrades I can think of. Just
    email Stan, order a rim strip and kit. Take your tyre and tube off, put
    the rim strip on, stick the tyre on, add some gloop, and away you go!

    Ok, I agree that having a wider Q factor is not a big issue. But then
    the slightly weaker wheel from the narrow hub is not a big issue for me
    either, because I don't weigh that much and I don't do 7ft drops on a
    Coker like some people on this forum 🙄

    --
    GizmoDuck - NZUNI

    o-kO
    'www.adventureunicyclist.com' (http://www.adventureunicyclist.com/)

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