Reverse layering - arm warmers

Sounds like a theory worth experimenting with.
Guess I sort of do the same when I unzip my
fleece to keep from over heating.

Tony said:

Although I mentioned this before, I'll call this my first crackpot theory
for '05. When exercising in the cold, it's often better to expose more of
the core body (torso and head), and put heavier layers on the limbs,
especially inactive limbs. Traditional cold weather layering protects the
core body, but for those doing heavy exercise the core heats up and soon
needs more cooling, while the inactive limbs remain cool.

When running this means more layers on the arms and hands, and when cycling,
it means more on the feet, arms and hands. My theory is that the body will
prioritize bloodflow to the active areas and restrict bloodflow to the arms
and hands when running, producing cold hands even if one is sweating
substantially at the core.

So far this year I've begun experimenting with more even layering, as
opposed to double layering the core only, and twice now I've run with
bicycle arm warmers under a single layer long-sleeve polypro top. The arm
warmers produce just the effect I was hoping for - I don't overheat at the
core, but my hands and arms are noticeably warmer than before, and this
makes the quality of the run better.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

My theory is that the body will

prioritize bloodflow to the active areas and restrict bloodflow to the
arms
and hands when running, producing cold hands even if one is sweating
substantially at the core.
___

i've never thought the body could "prioritize" blood flow. I thought
you could restrict it by truncation / pressure (leg falling asleep,
etc.). Also this talk about "overheating and the core". From my
experience....in all temps...slightly unzipping my running jacket or
fleece top at the collar and down to chest level or therabouts has
always provided/produced sufficient cooling for my "core" for runs of
any distance. I could be wrong....but I've never experienced it as
any more complicated than this.

Tony said:

So far this year I've begun experimenting with more even layering, as
opposed to double layering the core only, and twice now I've run with
bicycle arm warmers under a single layer long-sleeve polypro top. The arm
warmers produce just the effect I was hoping for - I don't overheat at the
core, but my hands and arms are noticeably warmer than before, and this
makes the quality of the run better.

-Tony

For bicycling I wear a wicking shirt, a windproof vest with mesh back,
wrist warmers made by cutting off the tops of old socks, and two layers
of gloves. That gives me core wind protection for cold downhills,
ventilation where I sweat most, and warm hands. I don't find I mind
cold elbows if my lower arms are warm and I don't have a gap between
gloves and shirtsleeves.

Pam

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden]
of 08 Jan 2005:

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

So far this year I've begun experimenting with more even layering, as
opposed to double layering the core only, and twice now I've run with
bicycle arm warmers under a single layer long-sleeve polypro top. The
arm warmers produce just the effect I was hoping for - I don't
overheat at the core, but my hands and arms are noticeably warmer
than before, and this makes the quality of the run better.

-Tony

For bicycling I wear a wicking shirt, a windproof vest with mesh back,
wrist warmers made by cutting off the tops of old socks, and two
layers of gloves. That gives me core wind protection for cold
downhills, ventilation where I sweat most, and warm hands. I don't
find I mind cold elbows if my lower arms are warm and I don't have a
gap between gloves and shirtsleeves.

While bicycling doesn't heat loss through air convection play a much more
important role in apparel choices?

Phil M.

pam_in_sc wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

So far this year I've begun experimenting with more even layering, as
opposed to double layering the core only, and twice now I've run with
bicycle arm warmers under a single layer long-sleeve polypro top. The arm
warmers produce just the effect I was hoping for - I don't overheat at

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

core, but my hands and arms are noticeably warmer than before, and this
makes the quality of the run better.

-Tony

For bicycling I wear a wicking shirt, a windproof vest with mesh back,
wrist warmers made by cutting off the tops of old socks, and two layers
of gloves. That gives me core wind protection for cold downhills,
ventilation where I sweat most, and warm hands. I don't find I mind
cold elbows if my lower arms are warm and I don't have a gap between
gloves and shirtsleeves.

Pam

How cold are you talking, and how long do you ride for? I can get by with
getting cold feet and arms for up to an hour, but what I'm talking about is
getting home and not having cold limbs if possible. It just makes the whole
experience better.

-T

[email hidden] wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My theory is that the body will

prioritize bloodflow to the active areas and restrict bloodflow to the
arms
and hands when running, producing cold hands even if one is sweating
substantially at the core.
___

i've never thought the body could "prioritize" blood flow. I thought
you could restrict it by truncation / pressure (leg falling asleep,
etc.). Also this talk about "overheating and the core". From my
experience....in all temps...slightly unzipping my running jacket or
fleece top at the collar and down to chest level or therabouts has
always provided/produced sufficient cooling for my "core" for runs of
any distance. I could be wrong....but I've never experienced it as
any more complicated than this.

Unzipping works some, but if my core layering is too warm, my back gets hot
too. It's a subtle layering change. For example, instead of doubling my
core layer with a coolmax t-shirt and then a long sleeve polypro on top, I'm
saying the same polypro top over bicycle arm warmers underneath works much
better, and keeps the body evenly warm. It's well worth experimenting with
if you ever get back from your runs sweaty but with chilled arms or hands,
something that always used to happen to me particularly noticeable in the
shower thawing out afterwards.

-T

For running, this is totally the opposite of what I have developed as
the best layering set-up over my 30 years of hitting the winter roads.
I keep my core warm - more stuff on my arms becomes sweaty, hot baggage
I can not get rid of. I have found that wicking underclothes, combined
with single-layer nylon pants is enough for legs wey down to sub-zero
temps; but I prefer running tights when it is above freezing. On top,
unless the air temp or wind chill is under 20 or so, I don't need to
add more than a fleece or breathable windproof vest over the poly
shirt. I usually wind up pulling my sleeves up exposing my forearms,
even when my vest is still zipped up to my chin. I use my arms to
regulate my body temperature, depending on wind direction and workout
intensity. The body does send heat away from the torso when it is kept
warm. Gloves are a key to feeling warm, even at relatively high temps
like mid 50's. I find if my hands are warm, my body stays warm.
Taking them off and putting them on during a run also helps manage body
temp. And of course a polypro hat tops off the winter outfit - which
is another item to take off and put back on to regulate body temp in
response to wind and intensity. I run a lot of cold weather races in
shorts, t-shirt, gloves and a hat - and change things around as the
race progresses.

You should keep your core warm for an even more important reason:
energy conservation. Let's say you are on workout over an hour and you
are fatigued and you don't realize your body temp dropped a degree.
Now you turn into the wind and you are at the the point where some of
your available energy stores - the glycogen you need to sustain
intensity in your workout - will be wasted on bringing your core temp
back to normal rather than fueling your muscles. Now you are running
slower and cold and miserable. On the bike, the situation might be
worse, as you begin to lose dexterity and visual acuity with the
lowered body temp and the oncoming bonk...

CRASH! ...or stop at a convenience store and eat some ho-ho's and a
cup of coffee 🙂

Tony (remove) said:

Although I mentioned this before, I'll call this my first crackpot

theory

Quoted message said:

for '05. When exercising in the cold, it's often better to expose

more of

Quoted message said:

the core body (torso and head), and put heavier layers on the limbs,
especially inactive limbs. Traditional cold weather layering protects

the

Quoted message said:

core body, but for those doing heavy exercise the core heats up and

soon

Quoted message said:

needs more cooling, while the inactive limbs remain cool.

When running this means more layers on the arms and hands, and when

cycling,

Quoted message said:

it means more on the feet, arms and hands. My theory is that the body

will

Quoted message said:

prioritize bloodflow to the active areas and restrict bloodflow to

the arms

Quoted message said:

and hands when running, producing cold hands even if one is sweating
substantially at the core.

So far this year I've begun experimenting with more even layering, as
opposed to double layering the core only, and twice now I've run with
bicycle arm warmers under a single layer long-sleeve polypro top. The

arm

Quoted message said:

warmers produce just the effect I was hoping for - I don't overheat

at the

Quoted message said:

core, but my hands and arms are noticeably warmer than before, and

this

Quoted message said:

makes the quality of the run better.

-Tony

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Also this talk about "overheating and the core". From my
experience....in all temps...slightly unzipping my running jacket or
fleece top at the collar and down to chest level or therabouts has
always provided/produced sufficient cooling for my "core" for runs of
any distance. I could be wrong....but I've never experienced it as
any more complicated than this.

That's you. Other respond differently. I find that underdressing the core,
while selectively covering the forearms allows me to fairly precisely regulate
my temperature.

My ideal ambient running temperature is around 35 F. Preferred covering is
shorts plus a long sleeve tee. Note there is no jacket to unzip. Optionally,
gloves, but these become irrelevant after a couple of miles. The 35 F is warm
enough not to cause a throat/lung burn, while allowing me to keep the body
temp moderate enough to prevent sweating. I absolutely love it, it feels like
I could run forever.

Incidentally, there was a discussion of this just a few days ago, where I
posted the results of my experiment running a 15 miler at 35 F.

Running at substantially below 35 F may call for another layer on the core, or
simply a substitution of a light sweatshirt for the long sleeve tee.

However, I have no experience running at temps below 20 F.

thinnmann wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

For running, this is totally the opposite of what I have developed as
the best layering set-up over my 30 years of hitting the winter roads.
I keep my core warm - more stuff on my arms becomes sweaty, hot baggage
I can not get rid of. I have found that wicking underclothes, combined

Then to me this shows you might have far too much on to begin with. I've
been an outdoorsman all my life as well, and I know how to keep warm. What
I'm suggesting is a layering system that keeps the body warm evenly and
cools those parts of the body that get too hot with traditional layering
during heavy exercise.

Quoted message said:

with single-layer nylon pants is enough for legs wey down to sub-zero
temps; but I prefer running tights when it is above freezing. On top,
unless the air temp or wind chill is under 20 or so, I don't need to
add more than a fleece or breathable windproof vest over the poly
shirt. I usually wind up pulling my sleeves up exposing my forearms,

Ive used my forearms and hands to regulate body temperature in the past
also. Very often I've ended up sweating profusely while having cold hands,
and getting home with chilled arms and hands even though I'm otherwise
drenched in sweat. In my experiements using the arm warmers thus far, I get
back from my runs feeling warmer all over and only sweating lightly.

Quoted message said:

even when my vest is still zipped up to my chin. I use my arms to
regulate my body temperature, depending on wind direction and workout
intensity. The body does send heat away from the torso when it is kept
warm. Gloves are a key to feeling warm, even at relatively high temps

Yes, the body sends heat to the limbs, but during heavy exercise this simply
does not seem to happen with the same efficiency because the bloodflow is
concentrated in and out of the legs. Also rolling up your sleeves or taking
your gloves off can lead to frostbite and/or chilled limbs in windy cold
conditions.

Quoted message said:

like mid 50's. I find if my hands are warm, my body stays warm.
Taking them off and putting them on during a run also helps manage body
temp. And of course a polypro hat tops off the winter outfit - which
is another item to take off and put back on to regulate body temp in
response to wind and intensity. I run a lot of cold weather races in
shorts, t-shirt, gloves and a hat - and change things around as the
race progresses.

You should keep your core warm for an even more important reason:
energy conservation. Let's say you are on workout over an hour and you
are fatigued and you don't realize your body temp dropped a degree.
Now you turn into the wind and you are at the the point where some of
your available energy stores - the glycogen you need to sustain
intensity in your workout - will be wasted on bringing your core temp
back to normal rather than fueling your muscles. Now you are running
slower and cold and miserable. On the bike, the situation might be
worse, as you begin to lose dexterity and visual acuity with the
lowered body temp and the oncoming bonk...

In colder conditions when you'll be out a while, it's always wise to bring
either an extra layer or a warmer hat. Wise winter runners always run into
the wind first. I'm not suggesting allowing yourself to be cold. I'm saying
I experimented and I really like what I've found with even layering (as
opposed to an extra layer around the core), or slight reverse layering such
as arm warmers underneath. Maybe you're not one of those who've had the
same problem as me: profuse sweating while at the same time getting back
with cold arms and hands.

-T

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
[email hidden] of 08 Jan 2005:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Also this talk about "overheating and the core". From my
experience....in all temps...slightly unzipping my running jacket or
fleece top at the collar and down to chest level or therabouts has
always provided/produced sufficient cooling for my "core" for runs of
any distance. I could be wrong....but I've never experienced it as
any more complicated than this.

That's you. Other respond differently. I find that underdressing the
core, while selectively covering the forearms allows me to fairly
precisely regulate my temperature.

My ideal ambient running temperature is around 35 F. Preferred
covering is shorts plus a long sleeve tee. Note there is no jacket to
unzip. Optionally, gloves, but these become irrelevant after a couple
of miles. The 35 F is warm enough not to cause a throat/lung burn,
while allowing me to keep the body temp moderate enough to prevent
sweating. I absolutely love it, it feels like I could run forever.

Incidentally, there was a discussion of this just a few days ago,
where I posted the results of my experiment running a 15 miler at 35
F.

Running at substantially below 35 F may call for another layer on the
core, or simply a substitution of a light sweatshirt for the long
sleeve tee.

However, I have no experience running at temps below 20 F.

I think we're neighbors, so my weather is similar. This winter I've been
compiling data relating to my apparel choices and whether or not they were
effective. So far, this is what has worked:

mid 60s or higher - singlet, shorts
lower 60s - singlet, shorts, gloves
mid to upper 50s - t-shirt, shorts, gloves, running cap
low 50s - t-shirt, vest, shorts, gloves, running cap
upper 40s - longsleeve t-shirt, vest, shorts, gloves, headband
mid to upper 40s - longsleeve t-shirt, jacket, shorts, gloves, headband
low 40s - longsleeve turtleneck, jacket, shorts, gloves, drylete hat
upper 30s - longsleeve turtleneck, jacket, shorts, gloves (2 layers),
drylete hat
mid 30s - longsleeve turtleneck, jacket, tights, gloves (2 layers),
drylete hat

The coldest it's been this winter during my runs is 35F, so no data for
runs colder than that.

Throw rain into the equation and things change. Also, humidity, wind, sun,
and running intensity play a role, so the temperature alone won't tell me
what to wear. For example, if I were running at tempo pace, I would likely
dress as if it were 10 degrees warmer. As for individual differences, I
think weight is also a factor. At least it is for me. Right now I'm at an
all time low bodyweight (since I was 13). I'm wearing warmer clothing than
I did last year during similar runs.

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John Short,
South African coach.

Tony said:

Although I mentioned this before, I'll call this my first crackpot theory
for '05. When exercising in the cold, it's often better to expose more of
the core body (torso and head), and put heavier layers on the limbs,
especially inactive limbs. Traditional cold weather layering protects the
core body, but for those doing heavy exercise the core heats up and soon
needs more cooling, while the inactive limbs remain cool.

When running this means more layers on the arms and hands, and when cycling,
it means more on the feet, arms and hands. My theory is that the body will

I already do this to some extent. I seldom wear more than one layer on the
core. My core layer is a top with windproof polypro on the front and sleeves,
and lighter, more breathable fleece on the back.

If it's really cold, I wear gloves under the mitts.

I think where you get in trouble is if you wear half a dozen layers on your
core. Just not necessary. But the armwarmers aren't necessary either.

Quoted message said:

So far this year I've begun experimenting with more even layering, as
opposed to double layering the core only, and twice now I've run with
bicycle arm warmers under a single layer long-sleeve polypro top. The arm

Don't know what the top is, but if it's cold and windy, you need some wind
protection. If it weren't for the wind, I'd get by with one of those midweight
fleece tops.

Quoted message said:

warmers produce just the effect I was hoping for - I don't overheat at the
core, but my hands and arms are noticeably warmer than before, and this
makes the quality of the run better.

How cold is the weather where you are ? Without windproof material (either
a sporthill/sugoi top or some kind of jacket) my nipples would freeze. This
is a windchill issue, not a hypothermia issue. It's much easier to protect
yourself from the cold (just keep running!) than it is to protect yourself from
the wind.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

In other words, I should be running in chaps, arm warmers, gloves, a
ski mask, and a thong when it's cold.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 00:51:53 GMT, "Tony"

qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

Although I mentioned this before, I'll call this my first crackpot theory
for '05. When exercising in the cold, it's often better to expose more of
the core body (torso and head), and put heavier layers on the limbs,
especially inactive limbs. Traditional cold weather layering protects the
core body, but for those doing heavy exercise the core heats up and soon
needs more cooling, while the inactive limbs remain cool.

When running this means more layers on the arms and hands, and when cycling,
it means more on the feet, arms and hands. My theory is that the body will
prioritize bloodflow to the active areas and restrict bloodflow to the arms
and hands when running, producing cold hands even if one is sweating
substantially at the core.

So far this year I've begun experimenting with more even layering, as
opposed to double layering the core only, and twice now I've run with
bicycle arm warmers under a single layer long-sleeve polypro top. The arm
warmers produce just the effect I was hoping for - I don't overheat at the
core, but my hands and arms are noticeably warmer than before, and this
makes the quality of the run better.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

lower 60s - gloves,

__

i gotta ask phil....is this common to see w/runners in your area? 62 F
and wearing gloves? i imagine this is a personal comfort thing and not
typical? are you just a sampling on the extreme end....or do some
there in fact need gloves in the upper 60s and low 70s? just curious.

User said...

Quoted message said:

In other words, I should be running in chaps, arm warmers, gloves, a
ski mask, and a thong when it's cold.

Leave out the chaps and the ski mask (unless you plan to rob a bank
along the way) and you've got it.

Phil M. said:

While bicycling doesn't heat loss through air convection play a much more
important role in apparel choices?

Phil M.

Yes--it is really hard not to get chilled on downhills. I've used a
fleece jacket the little running I have done so far at temperatures in
the 40s, not needing as much windblocking. But I do recommend cut off
socks to anyone who wants to experiment cheaply with arm warmers.

Pam

Phil M. said...

Quoted message said:

mid 30s - longsleeve turtleneck, jacket, tights, gloves (2 layers),
drylete hat

I am absolutely amazed at the different coverage requirement two similar
runners can have in the same climate. My core temp is climbing alarmingly
just reading about your preferred 35 F outfit. :-)

As to body weight, I am likewise at my lowest in many years. I weighed around
168-172 through high school and college, and gradually increased to a high of
182 pounds a couple of years ago.

Since then, I have dropped around 25 pounds, to a pretty steady 157-158.
At six feet tall, that makes me somewhat underweight (yes, I am cultivating
that Auschwitz survivor look). But I have not noticed any effect on my
cold/heat tolerance. My speed, OTOH, has increased. ;-)

Tony said:

How cold are you talking, and how long do you ride for? I can get by with
getting cold feet and arms for up to an hour, but what I'm talking about is
getting home and not having cold limbs if possible. It just makes the whole
experience better.

-T

Two to three hours with temperatures in the high 40s to low 50s for that
combination. I use two shirt layers and the vest in the low 40s, which
is as cold as I have tried (I'm in western South Carolina). I haven't
worked out a solution to cold feet yet, but that is a particular problem
of bike shoes.

I'm basicly agreeing with your idea--a jacket seems too warm and to hold
in moisture too much. I need the vest as well as some kind of arm
warmers, but that may be because there is more wind chill in bicycling.

Pam

Since then, I have dropped around 25 pounds, to a pretty steady
157-158.
At six feet tall, that makes me somewhat underweight (yes, I am
cultivating
that Auschwitz survivor look). But I have not noticed any effect on my
cold/heat tolerance. My speed, OTOH, has increased. ;-)
___

would not the appropriate index ref. point be body fat % (and that
change in detecting temp.?). have you read about that woman who can
expose herself to extreme cold temps in the water...she does those
arctic challenge swim things...and i thought they referenced how her %
of body fat aided her in maintaining body warmpth. she physical did
not look like an athlete.....well maybe a bulgarian female shotputter
circa 1972 or so.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

would not the appropriate index ref. point be body fat % (and that
change in detecting temp.?).

It probably would be. I don't know my body fat percentage, but I am
guessing it's probably pretty damn low at my height and weight. And
I don't look like a female Bulgarian shotputter at all - think more
along the lines of an Auschwitz survivor look. Although my mom says
Auschwitz survivors looked better. ;-)