Armstrong doping question

wafflycat said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is a guy who lives in Europe, but nevermind that. As I understand
it,
you admit you resent Lance for winning the TDF. Oh, and nevermind the
other
races he rides in. They don't count. Only the ones he wins count. Yeah, I
understand.

Pat in TX

No, sweetie, you don't. Let me explain in words of few syllables ;-)

1. Lance *is* a great cyclist

Yep.

Quoted message said:

2. There are quite a few significant races in the world cycling calendar
of which the TdF is one; albeit it an extremely important one.

Yep, although it seems the TdF has suddenly been downgraded
in importance after being dominated by a non-European for
the last 6 years.

Quoted message said:

3. Not everyone who doesn't grovel at the feet of LA is anti-American.

And in what form does that groveling take? Spitting on the
guy as he climbs Alpe d'Huiez? Chants of "Dopa, dopa" as
he passes? Continuous charges of doping while the evidence
of doing so never seems to materialize?

Quoted message said:

4. Not American does not equate to no good and of no worth.

Depends on the individual, but from this direction, European
public opinion doesn't seem to match that statement.

Quoted message said:

5. Being American does not mean you are automatically the best in the
world.

Nope.

Quoted message said:

6. You are most excellently demonstrating the arrogance which can get
Americans a bad name. Thankfully not all are as arrogant.

"Arrogance" is one of the current code words in common use
for negatively labeling Americans. I see you're right up
on it.

Arrogance I presume in the sense that those crazy Republican
"neocons" didn't let Europe define what American interests
in the world would be?

SMH

Just zis Guy said:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:12:55 GMT, Stephen Harding
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<HyA4e.3606$7b.1117@trndny02>:

Quoted message said:

Yeah we keep hearing how Euros aren't "anti-American", they just
don't like our President, feel our political system is corrupt,
elections Third World, our businesses anti-Green, our news media
uninformed and shallow, and our citizenry over-weight and stupid.

We don't like our Prime Minister either. A lot of people were not at
all happy about the idea of invading Iraq, and that had no connection
with their views on other political issues of the day.

I think the political view is fairly constant, and largely
manifests itself across political issues. Conservatives
will have a fairly predictable suite of positions they take
over a range of issues as do "liberals". It's rare for
people to cross over politically.

Quoted message said:

We don't think your businesses are anti-green. We do think your
President is, but we have evidence for that. It's nothing personal,
it's just that he's an oilman, a global warming denier and apparently
hell-bent on using all the oil before anyone else does.

Again, another form of negative American stereotyping.
Americans do everything for oil. That was why the US was
involved in bombing Serbia and Kosovo. That was why the
US was involved in Vietnam. That is the driving force for
the Iraq invasion. Oil dictates American foreign policy.
No other country in the world cares about oil (at least not
to the point of fighting over it) except the US. Greedy
American oil companies want to rule the world.

I don't buy it. It's a factor in *any* nation's foreign
policy (or it out to be for a responsible government). It's
not the over-riding rule in foreign policy decision-making
though.

Quoted message said:

Is your electoral process corrupt? Even W's best friends surely could
not think that Florida 2000 was anything other than fishy. Just as
our PM's best friends could not pretend that the postal votes fiasco
looks good.

Europe largely bought into the "stolen election" claims in
Florida/2000, and to a lesser extent Ohio/2004. (Strange
that the Republicans were so clever as to "steal" votes in
some 60 voting districts controlled by Dems in Florida and
also managed to do so in Ohio in 2004: the very states that
ended up deciding the election!)

In fact we had a *tied* election in 2000. Every voting error
or person missing from a voter list suddenly got magnified
into a "plot" to steal an election. There have been plenty
of after-event studies done to show there was no such plot
to steal elections in 2000 and 2004. But the belief is still
there amongst the more [politically] liberal bent of mind.

Quoted message said:

Is your citizenry overweight? You said it, not me. And Greg Critser
said it in Fat Land. The idea that the US is the world's most
overweight nation is not some kind of invented prejudice, it's a
documented fact - and all the documentation is coming from US doctors
who are concerned about it.

Absolutely! A real problem brought on by junk food probably.
I think about 30% of children are over-weight (maybe obese).
Still, "all Americans" are not overweight.

And I might add, Europe is merrily following the weight-gain
trend. The US is simply ahead of you that's all.

Quoted message said:

Are Americans stupid? Nobody said they were. Misled, sometimes, but
no more stupid on average than the sheeple of any other country.

Fair enough.

SMH

"Stephen Harding" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:_RP4e.6437$7b.2220@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

wafflycat said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is a guy who lives in Europe, but nevermind that. As I understand
it,
you admit you resent Lance for winning the TDF. Oh, and nevermind the
other
races he rides in. They don't count. Only the ones he wins count. Yeah,
I
understand.

Pat in TX

No, sweetie, you don't. Let me explain in words of few syllables ;-)

1. Lance *is* a great cyclist

Yep.

Quoted message said:

2. There are quite a few significant races in the world cycling calendar
of which the TdF is one; albeit it an extremely important one.

Yep, although it seems the TdF has suddenly been downgraded
in importance after being dominated by a non-European for
the last 6 years.

Not at all - the TdF still is exceptionally important, if not the most
important, it just isn't the only race ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. Not everyone who doesn't grovel at the feet of LA is anti-American.

And in what form does that groveling take? Spitting on the
guy as he climbs Alpe d'Huiez? Chants of "Dopa, dopa" as
he passes? Continuous charges of doping while the evidence
of doing so never seems to materialize?

I would *never* condone that behaviour towards anyone of any nationality.
But to put it in context, some of the fans seemed particularly partisan
towards their own riders and against quite a few over the years. But to then
take the bad behaviour of a relative few and extrapolate that as generally
anti-American or general European view towards LA is completely wrong.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. Not American does not equate to no good and of no worth.

Depends on the individual, but from this direction, European
public opinion doesn't seem to match that statement.

You think that to be pro-American is to agree with everything that is done
in the name of the country? Surely friends are allowed to have
disagreements? Or do you think that friends aren't allowed to say, "Sorry,
we disagree with you on this one." without the friendship being ended?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. Being American does not mean you are automatically the best in the
world.

Nope.

Quoted message said:

6. You are most excellently demonstrating the arrogance which can get
Americans a bad name. Thankfully not all are as arrogant.

"Arrogance" is one of the current code words in common use
for negatively labeling Americans. I see you're right up
on it.

Arrogance I presume in the sense that those crazy Republican
"neocons" didn't let Europe define what American interests
in the world would be?

More like those crazy neocons not giving a [censored] about the effect of their
actions on the rest of the planet :-)

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

SMH

Just zis Guy said:

a hundred miles a week. I have only raced three times, and never in a
road race (one track race on a recumbent, two cross-country races) but
I am one of the fastest cyclists I know. Actually one of the reasons
I think most of those guys are on drugs is that even when I was
substantially fitter than I am now, working out for an average of at
least an hour a day in the gym plus cycling 15 miles round trip to
work every day, my flat-out speed on the road was still slower than
Lance rides up mountains. Some of that will be genetic, some of it
age, some of it training, but looking at the incredible increases in
performance over very short periods (essentially zero in evolutionary
terms) I can't believe that no chemicals are involved. I could be
wrong, but the periodic high-profile doping scandals suggest not.

Why can't someone who has a tremendously strong work
ethic in training, combined with specialization in
one event, not to mention probable natural
physiological ability (his lung power is supposed to
be tremendous), not end up being so dominant among
his racing peers?

Do you think Merckx was doing anything hokey in
dominating his sport so thoroughly for so long?

SMH

SMH

Mike Kruger said:

And last year we kept hearing about anti-French sentiment --
how Americans were refusing to buy French products, how some
places were re-naming French Fries to Freedom Fries, etc.
Some of that did occur -- I got a really good price on two
Michelin tires for my wife's car from a shop that was
discontinuing Michelins because they are French. But I
checked imported champagne sales during the early days of the
Iraq war, and found they were up, when domestic wine sales
were down.

I've always been prejudiced against the French, but I've
also recognized the Frano-American relationship as one of
the great love-hate relationships of the world.

The French enabled the US to gain it's independence. Our
first war was against the French. And on and on it goes!

We're currently on the downside of this great relationship!

Quoted message said:

America is a diverse country with many differences of opinion;

True.

Quoted message said:

Europe even more so.

I don't believe that to be the case.

SMH

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:23:40 GMT, Stephen Harding
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<0FP4e.6435$7b.3867@trndny01>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Opposition to Shrub is far from exclusive. You have the germ of a
point about Europeans being liberals by the American definition, but
only because the GOP has moved so far to the right that there is no
place else to go other than to the left of it.

Quoted message said:

From the European view that's probably true. It's most
certainly not from this side of the great waters.

Maybe. As far as I can tell the current crop of economic right
politicians in the US (and over here) are so close to the edge of the
scale that they'll soon be needing to add some extensions to it.

I find it interesting that the "left-wing liberal" John Kerry is
actually solidly in the right-wing authoritarian quadrant of the
political compass.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There was at least as much opposition here to our Government invading
Iraq as there was to Shrub, probably more so since the consensus is
that our Prime Minister is an intelligent and well-informed man who
should know better.

Quoted message said:

Again, an absolute definition of "intelligence" based on
political perspective.

Not really, there is a widespread feeling that Blair is quite
intelligent.

Quoted message said:

Speaking *very broadly*, Conservatives trash you by saying
your position is "immoral", Liberals trash you by saying
your position is "ignorant".

That's the social authoritarian / libertarian axis more than the
economic left/right axis of course. But once again, the "liberals" in
US and European politics are still largely in the right/authoritarian
quadrant.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who would you rather be beaten by, a man who's
been riding alongside you through all those races or one who arrives
fresh to take the one race everyone in the world has heard of and
every cyclist wants to win?

Quoted message said:

I'd rather not be beaten at all!

And the fact that one rider comes in fresh while you've been riding
flat out for weeks helps this how? ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Stephen Harding said:

Quoted message said:

We don't like our Prime Minister either. A lot of people were not at
all happy about the idea of invading Iraq, and that had no connection
with their views on other political issues of the day.

Quoted message said:

I think the political view is fairly constant, and largely
manifests itself across political issues. Conservatives
will have a fairly predictable suite of positions they take
over a range of issues as do "liberals". It's rare for
people to cross over politically.

But that wasn't what I said. Opposition to the war came from people
of all political colours.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We don't think your businesses are anti-green. We do think your
President is, but we have evidence for that. It's nothing personal,
it's just that he's an oilman, a global warming denier and apparently
hell-bent on using all the oil before anyone else does.

Quoted message said:

Again, another form of negative American stereotyping.

No, anti-Bush stereotyping. Lots of Americans are active
environmentalists, Bush is not. It is possible to dislike individual
Americans - even the leader - without being anti-American. Neocons
can't see this, of course, but everyone else can.

Quoted message said:

Greedy American oil companies want to rule the world.

See, I didn't say that. I think greedy capitalists want to rule the
world. Not all of them are American.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is your electoral process corrupt? Even W's best friends surely could
not think that Florida 2000 was anything other than fishy. Just as
our PM's best friends could not pretend that the postal votes fiasco
looks good.

Quoted message said:

Europe largely bought into the "stolen election" claims in
Florida/2000, and to a lesser extent Ohio/2004.

Are you disputing the large-scale disenfranchisement of black voters
in Florida? I have to say that the evidence is pretty compelling.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is your citizenry overweight? You said it, not me. And Greg Critser
said it in Fat Land. The idea that the US is the world's most
overweight nation is not some kind of invented prejudice, it's a
documented fact - and all the documentation is coming from US doctors
who are concerned about it.

Quoted message said:

Absolutely! A real problem brought on by junk food probably.
I think about 30% of children are over-weight (maybe obese).
Still, "all Americans" are not overweight.

Nobody said they were. But most are, and it is a documented fact that
/more/ Americans are /more/ overweight than are Europeans. Which
invites the question of why you dropped that particular issue into the
discussion...

Quoted message said:

And I might add, Europe is merrily following the weight-gain
trend. The US is simply ahead of you that's all.

Australia is closest, I believe.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:32:21 -0500, "Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Just respond to what I wrote, not what you imagined I thought.

I could say the same. But I can't be arsed.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Stephen Harding said:

Why can't someone who has a tremendously strong work
ethic in training, combined with specialization in
one event, not to mention probable natural
physiological ability (his lung power is supposed to
be tremendous), not end up being so dominant among
his racing peers?

Read what I said. I can't believe that the massive advances in
performance in recent years can be down solely to genetics and
training.

Quoted message said:

Do you think Merckx was doing anything hokey in
dominating his sport so thoroughly for so long?

Probably. Look what happened to Tom Simpson.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Just zis Guy said:

I find it interesting that the "left-wing liberal" John Kerry is
actually solidly in the right-wing authoritarian quadrant of the
political compass.

Heh. And from Hawaii, I guess California looks eastern. ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

I find it interesting that the "left-wing liberal" John

Kerry is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

actually solidly in the right-wing authoritarian quadrant

of the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

political compass.

Heh. And from Hawaii, I guess California looks eastern.

;-)

Quoted message said:

I think this is the link Guy is talking about.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Yes, at first this seems odd, but the more you listened to him
the more authoritarian Kerry sounded. He wants it all does his
way (and everybody who didn't was stupid); his way was just
different that Bush's way (and, for some Bushites, everybody
who didn't was immoral). Of course, for real authoritarianism
you can't do better than [censored], Stalin, Arafat, and the like
and neither Kerry nor Bush was out there.

In terms of right versus left -- well, you have to see who's
out there on the left. You also have to bear in mind that
Kerry was a rich man (and married to a rich woman). This is
also true of a number of "liberal" Democrats (the Kennedys
being one example). Nothing rich politicians do is really
designed to impoverish themselves.

You should try the test, Mark. It's good for a few minutes
thoughtful amusement.
Just for grins, I'm at about -4, -4 (which will only make
sense after you take the test yourself).

Mike Kruger said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

I find it interesting that the "left-wing liberal" John Kerry is
actually solidly in the right-wing authoritarian quadrant of the
political compass.

Heh. And from Hawaii, I guess California looks eastern. ;-)

I think this is the link Guy is talking about.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Yes, at first this seems odd, but the more you listened to him
the more authoritarian Kerry sounded. He wants it all does his
way (and everybody who didn't was stupid); his way was just
different that Bush's way (and, for some Bushites, everybody
who didn't was immoral). Of course, for real authoritarianism
you can't do better than [censored], Stalin, Arafat, and the like
and neither Kerry nor Bush was out there.

In terms of right versus left -- well, you have to see who's
out there on the left. You also have to bear in mind that
Kerry was a rich man (and married to a rich woman). This is
also true of a number of "liberal" Democrats (the Kennedys
being one example). Nothing rich politicians do is really
designed to impoverish themselves.

You should try the test, Mark. It's good for a few minutes
thoughtful amusement.
Just for grins, I'm at about -4, -4 (which will only make
sense after you take the test yourself).

Neil made me take the test as a condition of continuing to ride with me. I
came out something like -4.5, -2.5 (close enough for Usenet?)...

Left-handed Moderate [censored]

Just zis Guy said:

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:23:40 GMT, Stephen Harding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who would you rather be beaten by, a man who's
been riding alongside you through all those races or one who arrives
fresh to take the one race everyone in the world has heard of and
every cyclist wants to win?

Quoted message said:

I'd rather not be beaten at all!

And the fact that one rider comes in fresh while you've been riding
flat out for weeks helps this how? ;-)

Doesn't at all. Are race organizers supposed to define how
a racer gets to a race? Should the TdF be like a NASCAR
race series where everyone drives cars that are largely
standardized, not allowing automotive technology to dictate
a winner?

Perhaps to qualify for the TdF you have to ride certain races
and finish in certain ranks? Is there something like that
already in place? I don't think I could just sign up for
it, so there must be some sort of prerequisites.

At any rate, race criteria don't prohibit someone from doing
as Lance does (specialize). If you choose to run yourself
ragged riding flat out every weekend that's your choice. If
that isn't to your liking, choose another race program.

Trashing Lance for his specialization strategy seems rather
shallow, although it certainly is a consideration in
determining his place among the greats of bike racing.

SMH

Just zis Guy said:

Quoted message said:

Europe largely bought into the "stolen election" claims in
Florida/2000, and to a lesser extent Ohio/2004.

Are you disputing the large-scale disenfranchisement of black voters
in Florida? I have to say that the evidence is pretty compelling.

Yes. It's largely anecdotal or outright made up.

Voting "irregularities" happen all the time. Sometimes because
the voter wasn't on the ball, e.g. registering or changing
residence, or not filling out town census forms (which will
automatically kick you off voter rolls here in Massachusetts).
Sometimes the "system" screws up. People got dropped from
voter lists through no fault of their own. It was the fault
of some city worker, or machine, or whatever.

The infamous punch ballot was used by several states. They'd
been used in FL previously. The ballots must be approved by
elections commissions from all parties. No complaints. No
serious problems in past elections although the "hanging chad"
issue was known; no serious problems in the 2000 election in
other states. ONLY FLORIDA! Why would that be? Because FL
closely decided the election.

The idea that Blacks were systematically dropped from voter
rolls is just largely made up by unhappy liberals trying to
undermine a narrow win in Florida and a narrow capture of the
Presidency in 2000 by a conservative.

The same thing was tried in Ohio (because that was the state
that determined the win) in 2004. Not quite so close so it was
more difficult to make political hay out of it.

I especially liked the group of seniors in FL/2000 who reported
into a news camera that they "thought they might have been
disenfranchised".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Absolutely! A real problem brought on by junk food probably.
I think about 30% of children are over-weight (maybe obese).
Still, "all Americans" are not overweight.

Nobody said they were. But most are, and it is a documented fact that
/more/ Americans are /more/ overweight than are Europeans. Which
invites the question of why you dropped that particular issue into the
discussion...

Merely one of the common forms of negative stereotyping I see.

SMH

Mike Kruger said:

You should try the test, Mark. It's good for a few minutes
thoughtful amusement.
Just for grins, I'm at about -4, -4 (which will only make
sense after you take the test yourself).

Interesting link... FWIW, my results are:

Economic Left/Right: -2.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.08

Which makes me a left-leaning libertarian (though closer to the middle
of the graph than any other example they give). FWIW, I almost always
score in the middle of any social or psychological testing, usually
making it impossible to cleanly lump me into any broad category.

Of course, I'm sure that there are those who'd suggest I belong in the
far upper-right hand corner, but that's just because from down there
in the lower left it's hard to judge perspective. ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Bill Sornson said:

Neil made me take the test as a condition of continuing to ride with me. I
came out something like -4.5, -2.5 (close enough for Usenet?)...

Left-handed Moderate [censored]

Heh... with me at -2.5, -1.08 I have to wonder what a REAL liberal
scores?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

In article said:

Mike Kruger said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> I find it interesting that the "left-wing liberal" John Kerry is
> actually solidly in the right-wing authoritarian quadrant of the
> political compass.

Heh. And from Hawaii, I guess California looks eastern. ;-)

I think this is the link Guy is talking about.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Yes, at first this seems odd, but the more you listened to him
the more authoritarian Kerry sounded. He wants it all does his
way (and everybody who didn't was stupid); his way was just
different that Bush's way (and, for some Bushites, everybody
who didn't was immoral). Of course, for real authoritarianism
you can't do better than [censored], Stalin, Arafat, and the like
and neither Kerry nor Bush was out there.

In terms of right versus left -- well, you have to see who's
out there on the left. You also have to bear in mind that
Kerry was a rich man (and married to a rich woman). This is
also true of a number of "liberal" Democrats (the Kennedys
being one example). Nothing rich politicians do is really
designed to impoverish themselves.

You should try the test, Mark. It's good for a few minutes
thoughtful amusement.
Just for grins, I'm at about -4, -4 (which will only make
sense after you take the test yourself).

Neil made me take the test as a condition of continuing to ride with me. I
came out something like -4.5, -2.5 (close enough for Usenet?)...

Left-handed Moderate [censored]

From this survey I'm at (-6, -4).

Mark Hickey said:

Mike Kruger said:

You should try the test, Mark. It's good for a few minutes
thoughtful amusement.
Just for grins, I'm at about -4, -4 (which will only make
sense after you take the test yourself).

Interesting link... FWIW, my results are:

Economic Left/Right: -2.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.08

Which makes me a left-leaning libertarian (though closer to the middle
of the graph than any other example they give). FWIW, I almost always
score in the middle of any social or psychological testing, usually
making it impossible to cleanly lump me into any broad category.

Of course, I'm sure that there are those who'd suggest I belong in the
far upper-right hand corner, but that's just because from down there
in the lower left it's hard to judge perspective. ;-)

I am a Christian, which should put me in the far upper right corner. I
scored -3.25 and -1.49 that clearly ain't happening, so what's up doc?

W

Stephen Harding said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd rather not be beaten at all!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And the fact that one rider comes in fresh while you've been riding
flat out for weeks helps this how? ;-)

Quoted message said:

Doesn't at all. Are race organizers supposed to define how
a racer gets to a race?

Why not? You have to accumulate your brevets to ride the big
randonnees, after all.

Quoted message said:

Should the TdF be like a NASCAR
race series where everyone drives cars that are largely
standardized, not allowing automotive technology to dictate
a winner?

Have you seen the UCI regulations on bike construction? They would
have a NASCAR designer tearing his hair out!

Quoted message said:

Trashing Lance for his specialization strategy seems rather
shallow, although it certainly is a consideration in
determining his place among the greats of bike racing.

Which is all I was doing. Or rather, I was pointing out that doing
this does not make one anti-American.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Stephen Harding said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Europe largely bought into the "stolen election" claims in
Florida/2000, and to a lesser extent Ohio/2004.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you disputing the large-scale disenfranchisement of black voters
in Florida? I have to say that the evidence is pretty compelling.

Quoted message said:

Yes. It's largely anecdotal or outright made up.

Really. So no black voters were disqualified on spurious grounds
then?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nobody said they were. But most are, and it is a documented fact that
/more/ Americans are /more/ overweight than are Europeans. Which
invites the question of why you dropped that particular issue into the
discussion...

Quoted message said:

Merely one of the common forms of negative stereotyping I see.

But accurate, in this case.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound