rec.sport.unicycling · Public discussion

accident liability...Help!

Started by MrBoogiejuice · · Last activity · 72 posts · 1,243 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
rec.sport.unicycling
Published
17 May 2005
Last activity
19 May 2005
Original author
MrBoogiejuice
Posts
72
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
1,243
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 21–40 of 72
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. MrBoogiejuice said:


    As I was turnng onto the road she was on, she had right of way. Despite
    the fact it was a blind corner. Her (correct in retrospect) argument
    would be that I should have dismounted to turn the corner.

    Not entirely true - if she did excessive speed round teh corner, it
    would be partly her fault (there's case law for this - there have been
    cases of cars colliding at cross-roads and the car on teh main road
    being held more at fault, where it was (say) doing 90mph round a bend
    in a 30mph zone).

    If it's that blind a corner, what do cars leaving teh car-park do?
    Must drivers get out and push?

    Despite which statements, I do think you'll have difficulty proving it
    was her fault that she hit you as you pulled out of an entrance.

    regards, Ian SMith

  2. Sorry to threadjack but Ian Smith, do you have something against the
    wearing of helmets (and if so for what reason), or are you just anti
    people being told what to do or pressurised by others? Please understand
    i'm not attacking your opinion in any way, im just interested to know
    why you say the things you do, specifically 'DON'T say you'd be dead
    without it, and DON'T try and persuade anyone to wear one' Please also
    feel free not to reply to this if you'd rather not, i know that sounds
    silly but i hate upsetting people.

    Dave

    --
    kington99

    - what a thoroughly post-modern subversion of the cycling genre -
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    kington99's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/9417
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  3. Ian Smith said:
    *On Tue said:


    As I was turnng onto the road she was on, she had right of way.


    Despite

    Quoted message said:

    the fact it was a blind corner. Her (correct in retrospect)


    argument

    Quoted message said:

    would be that I should have dismounted to turn the corner.

    Not entirely true - if she did excessive speed round teh corner, it
    would be partly her fault (there's case law for this - there have
    been
    cases of cars colliding at cross-roads and the car on teh main road
    being held more at fault, where it was (say) doing 90mph round a
    bend
    in a 30mph zone).

    If it's that blind a corner, what do cars leaving teh car-park do?
    Must drivers get out and push?

    regards, Ian SMith *

    Hahahahha!

    --
    caw89 - Cody

    'Cody's Gallery' (http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Codys-Gallery)

    'sixsixone' (http://sixsixone.com/)

    AIM: unicaw89
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    caw89's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/8228
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  4. MrBoogiejuice said:

    Just spoken to the police...Basically I'm scuppered.

    Don't trust the police to give you accurate advice. They are far from
    being legal experts, and are far more interested in doing as little work
    as possible than in seeing justice done.

    Quoted message said:

    As I was turnng onto the road she was on, she had right of way. Despite
    the fact it was a blind corner.

    Motorists have a legal obligation to drive at a speed from which they
    are able to stop in the distance that they can see to be clear ahead.
    That includes on blind bends. So ISTM that at least some proportion of
    the fault lies with her.

    --
    Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
    <URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

  5. kington99 said:

    Sorry to threadjack but Ian Smith, do you have something against the
    wearing of helmets (and if so for what reason), or are you just anti
    people being told what to do or pressurised by others?

    Ian is a regular on uk.rec.cycling, where the vast majority of us are
    fairly doubtful about the benefits to cyclists of helmet wearing, having
    looked at a lot of the available evidence. His advice seemed to me to
    be sound advice regarding how to behave when posting to urc, having
    first advised Mr B that it might be worthwhile to bring this to
    uk.rec.cycling.

    You may find this to be of interest:
    <http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/cycling/ghd.html>

    (No, I am not willing to get into another helmet debate at this time -
    to read my own arguments, follow the links to my letters on the subject).

    --
    Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
    <URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

  6. Thanks hugely to Danny and Ian for all the constructive, useful
    advice...And to Harper for his unique insight. You've given me a few new
    angles to approach this from.

    I'm in the process of getting logged on to rec.uk.cycling.

    Could I ask the same question as Kington to Ian. Is there a legal reason
    why it's not a good idea to say a helmet saved your life?

    Cheers again,

    Kit

    --
    MrBoogiejuice - Loyal subject of the crown

    Make crumbs not War!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    MrBoogiejuice's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/5515
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  7. kington99 said:


    Sorry to threadjack but Ian Smith, do you have something against the
    wearing of helmets (and if so for what reason), or are you just anti
    people being told what to do or pressurised by others? Please understand
    i'm not attacking your opinion in any way, im just interested to know
    why you say the things you do, specifically 'DON'T say you'd be dead
    without it, and DON'T try and persuade anyone to wear one' Please also
    feel free not to reply to this if you'd rather not, i know that sounds
    silly but i hate upsetting people.

    The case for cycle helmets is tenuous in teh extreme. It's actually a
    complex subject, quite counter-intuitive in places, and stuffed full
    of misinformation. The advice I gave was to ensure teh poster got a
    useful response from teh group (or at least didn't get sidetracked and
    drowned out by offending a large part of teh group).

    The key issue is the sort of anecdote that goes "I had an accident and
    I was wearing a helmet and if I didn't I'd be dead" is, frankly,
    bollocks. You simply don't know that. You can't know that unless you
    do it again identically and _are_ dead. The uk.rec.cycling group is
    collectively sick of people who know very little about the subject
    barging in and saying that sort of thing, when the group contains
    several people who _have_ looked very carefully at the studies and
    statistics, and are genuinely expert in the field. If you put that in
    a post, you'll get drowned in responses about how wrong and logically
    incoherent the opinion is, and not get any useful response to any
    question you might have asked.

    The misinformation is evident in all sorts of ways - there are studies
    that are frequently cited that claim they've demonstrated (say) 85%
    reduction in head injuries when people wear helmets - these studies
    are cited as proving teh efficacy of helmets, but if you apply the
    same methodology to teh same injury data, it also 'proves' that
    helmets are even more effective at preventing leg injuries, and even
    more remarkable, they are also effective at turning you white -
    Michael Jackson didn't need all that surgery - he could have popped a
    cycle helmet on and become caucasian.

    Another example of misinformation - there's a UK charity that claims
    that making helmets mandatory for children under 16 will save the
    National Health Service some number of millions of pounds a year,
    except the amount it is claimed to save is more than teh NHS spends on
    treating injuries to children under 16 for _all_ causes, not just
    cycling. It will apparently also save about 5 times more fatalities a
    year than there are fatalities. Eh?

    The specification for cycle helmets performance is very poor - it
    equates to falling over while stationary. While this is probably OK
    for unicycling, it's plain laughable to claim it will make any
    difference in a collision with a motor vehicle.

    Finally, the population level statistics tend to demonstrate that
    _forcing_ people to wear helmets makes teh accident rate worse, and
    that even if you just let people choose, and they voluntarily wear
    helmets, it doesn't get better. Two examples - an Australian state
    passed a mandatory cycle helmets law. The number of head injuries to
    cyclists reduced. Hurray. Except that the number of cyclists reduced
    by a higher proportion - so for those cyclists left, enforced helmet
    wearing actually put their injury rate UP. Another example - in teh
    UK, the rate of cyclist deaths has reduced over teh period (last 10
    years, say) in which cycle helmet wearing rates has gone up - aha!
    Except teh rate of pedestrian deaths has gone down by more, so either
    cyclists wearing helmets also protects pedestrians (who arent wearing
    a helmet) hit by cars (and actually, protecting them more effectively
    than the cyclists that are wearing teh helmets), or something else is
    affecting the figures, and you can't attribute it to helmets.

    If you want yet more information, have a look at www.cyclehelmets.org,
    which has a lot of technical information, most of which is more
    credible than that put out by the people employed by helmet
    manufacturers.

    The case for wearing a helmet when unicycling, and especially
    unicycling off-road is actually much better. In fact, teh design case
    for cycle helmets is a pretty good match for the likely impacts when
    unicycling (unless you're doing crazy trials stuff at great height).
    However, the case for waering a cycle helmet to ride a bike in traffic
    is much MUCH more shaky.

    regards, Ian SMith

  8. MrBoogiejuice said:


    Could I ask the same question as Kington to Ian. Is there a legal reason
    why it's not a good idea to say a helmet saved your life?

    No, you'll just [censored] a large proportion of teh group, and teh
    consequent noise will drown out any useful responses.

    (Logically, you can't know for certain - the only way to prove it is
    to do it again without a helmet and get killed - see my reply to
    Kington, which I expect crossed in teh ether with your post above).

    regards, Ian SMith

  9. Well I'm convinced! Thats excellent Ian, someone who not only knows what
    he's talking about but can also take the time to explain it too. I
    understand what you mean about using statistics to show poeple what they
    expect to happen, the decrease in cycling injuries over the last 10
    years when attributed to motor vehicle accidents is probably more to do
    with improved car design than the safety equipment. Next time a cyclist
    says the helmets saved thier life, you can say it was more likely the
    car did, since improvements in design will have reduced the possibility
    of injury.

    I would be interested to know what the change in injury rates were in
    non-vehicle incidents, e.g mountain cycling or trails riding.

    --
    Loosemoose

    Dave: "I had a particularly bad UPD & found I'd lost a shoe"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Loosemoose's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/6326
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  10. gotcha! Interesting stuff on the helmet efficiency statistics.

    I'm having trouble getting onto the rec.uk.cycling. I don't think I'll
    be able to post 'til tomorrow after I've been approved.

    thanks again,

    kit

    --
    MrBoogiejuice - Loyal subject of the crown

    Make crumbs not War!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    MrBoogiejuice's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/5515
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  11. Send me a PM.

    Or email me at Mikefule (at) aol dot com

    I've been an insurance claims investigator/assessor/negotiator working
    under English law dealing with motor and Public Liability claims for 22
    years.

    Most of what you hear or read on the subject is myth. The rest is
    legend.

    Mike

    --
    Mikefule - The first cuckoo of unicycling

    Sumer is icomen in, loud sing Mikefule!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mikefule's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/879
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  12. Loosemoose said:


    Well I'm convinced! Thats excellent Ian, someone who not only knows what
    he's talking about but can also take the time to explain it too.

    There's people that are more expert at me on either uk.rec.cycling, or
    behind the www.cyclehelmets.org web site.

    Quoted message said:

    understand what you mean about using statistics to show poeple what they
    expect to happen, the decrease in cycling injuries over the last 10
    years when attributed to motor vehicle accidents is probably more to do
    with improved car design than the safety equipment.

    Possibly, but beware of falling into the same trap and assuming it's
    down to car design. It could be congestion making cars, on average,
    slower in towns. Personally, I think teh most likely is that it's
    simply becoming harder to die as medical science improves. In
    particular, teh ambulance that gets to you in three minutes now has
    more high-tech intensive-care gizmos than most hospitals had not so
    long ago. Injuries of teh same initial severity that used to kill
    you, now 'just' keep you off work for a few weeks.

    Quoted message said:

    I would be interested to know what the change in injury rates were in
    non-vehicle incidents, e.g mountain cycling or trails riding.

    Exactly the sort of thing which would indeed be interesting, but you'd
    need to temper those statistics against more people doing it, less fit
    people doing it, better equipment (eg disk brakes) letting the
    'serious' people go down steeper and faster. It's actually
    nightmarish trying to do anything conclusive with statistics.

    But I think this is drifting off topic somewhat...

    regards, Ian SMith

  13. MrBoogiejuice said:

    *As for the helmet wearing in my situation all I can say is that I'm
    DAMNED glad I was wearing one. Having seen the mess of the windscreen
    if those couple of inches of polystyrene hadn't been there things
    would have been nasty. I never realised there were dangers associated
    with wearing helmets...However despite that I'm going to continue
    wearing one. It helped me out this time and that's evidence enough for
    me. *

    I would agree with you on that. I have personally witnessed a cyclists
    head (in a helmet) hit a windscreen at around 50mph; he walked away with
    the helmet almost in two pieces but his head was intact. I have fallen
    off my unicycle at 0mph without a helmet and split my head open with a
    gushing result (though my head may have been travelling at 5mph on
    impact).

    I always wear a helmet for Muni & road type riding (and I would for
    trials if I did it) and my helmet has had a few knocks but no head
    injury. I don't wear a helmet for freestyle, hockey or playing games
    which was when I had the head injury (the only time I've hit my head
    during this kind of riding).

    Statistics can be manipulated in both ways and I prefer to trust
    intelligence and common sense. When it comes to insurance I'd take up
    Mikefule's offer, he knows what he's talking about on these matters
    (unlike us amatures).

    --
    unicus

    Every time I try to write my signature the pen slips on the monitor.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    unicus's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/869
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  14. unicus said:


    I would agree with you on that. I have personally witnessed a cyclists
    head (in a helmet) hit a windscreen at around 50mph; he walked away with
    the helmet almost in two pieces but his head was intact. I have fallen
    off my unicycle at 0mph without a helmet and split my head open with a
    gushing result (though my head may have been travelling at 5mph on
    impact).

    Exactly. Thank you for an example of precisely the sort of anecdote
    that has absolutely no useful contribution to teh debate. If the
    helmet split it didn't do any good (read up on plastic v. brittle
    failure modes). The manufacturers say cycle helmets have no useful
    contribution to make at 50mph, but you saw one accident and know
    better.

    With respect to teh second part of your anecdote, pretty much everyone
    agrees that helmets are useful for preventing minor but painful and
    inconvenient injuries. They are excellent, for example, at preventing
    road-rash on the scalp (though may may exacerbate brain injuries in
    doing so). The vast majority of people agree that they are useful
    equipment off-road.

    Quoted message said:

    Statistics can be manipulated in both ways and I prefer to trust
    intelligence and common sense. When it comes to insurance I'd take up
    Mikefule's offer, he knows what he's talking about on these matters
    (unlike us amatures).

    Unfortunately, intelligence and common sense tells you the world is
    flat - you can SEE it's flat, and that teh sun revolves around teh
    world - you can SEE it come up that side and go down the other side.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  15. Ken Cline said:

    casts the issue into doubt. But I doubt you can find one published in
    a journal as presitgeous as the British Medical Journal.

    You haven't looked at the we site I posted, have you.

    Quoted message said:

    that he would have been hurt otherwise, but I don't know too many
    people who would want to shatter a car's windscreen with their
    unprotected head.

    He didn't. His body hit the windscreen. I don't think he had a
    whole-body-coverage helmet on, but I'd be quite interested to see it.

    Quoted message said:

    Next time you say something is "tenuous in the extreme", I hope you'll
    provide some compelling evidence.

    I have, however (since we're in quoting mode) there's none so blind
    as those that will not see.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  16. Ian Smith said:

    *Exactly. Thank you for an example of precisely the sort of
    anecdote
    that has absolutely no useful contribution to teh debate. If the
    helmet split it didn't do any good (read up on plastic v. brittle
    failure modes). The manufacturers say cycle helmets have no useful
    contribution to make at 50mph, but you saw one accident and know
    better.*

    It has no contribution if you want to negate real world examples for the
    often biased reports you can read (and believe if you like). Please tell
    me where would the energy have gone that broke the helmet had the
    cyclist not been wearing it? And of course manufacturers make statements
    like that they have law suits to think about. So did I witness something
    so unusual it defies all the scientific studies? I don't think so.

    Ian Smith said:

    *They are excellent, for example, at preventing
    road-rash on the scalp (though may may exacerbate brain injuries in
    doing so).*

    I thought you previously said you couldn't know if wearing a helmet in a
    specific accident made a difference?

    Ian Smith said:

    *Unfortunately, intelligence and common sense tells you the world is
    flat - you can SEE it's flat, and that teh sun revolves around teh
    world - you can SEE it come up that side and go down the other side. *

    No; intelligence and common sense does not tell ME that. I don't just
    SEE I use my brain to think (which is nicely tucked away in a helmet).

    --
    unicus

    Every time I try to write my signature the pen slips on the monitor.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    unicus's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/869
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  17. Ian Smith said:

    *He didn't. His body hit the windscreen. I don't think he had a
    whole-body-coverage helmet on, but I'd be quite interested to see it.*

    No it was his helmet

    MrBoogiejuice said:

    *Her windscreen was shattered with a big hole where the pointy back of
    my helmet had hit the windscreen on the passenger side.*

    see this thread http://tinyurl.com/aeahl

    --
    unicus

    Every time I try to write my signature the pen slips on the monitor.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    unicus's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/869
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  18. unicus said:


    Ian Smith said:

    *They are excellent, for example, at preventing
    road-rash on the scalp (though may may exacerbate brain injuries in
    doing so).*

    I thought you previously said you couldn't know if wearing a helmet in a
    specific accident made a difference?

    Did I really? Where? (a quote would be nice).

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  19. This debate could (and probably will) go on for ever...

    Personally I hope they don't make helmet wearing compulsory. All you can
    say (with legislation as it is) is those that wish to wear helmets will
    and those that don't, wont.

    It was my head that hit the windscreen, so in my case I'm glad I was
    wearing my helmet.

    Thanks for the offer of help Mike Fule. And e mail will be winging it's
    way to you shortly. Thanks hugely for the offer of help.

    Kit

    --
    MrBoogiejuice - Loyal subject of the crown

    Make crumbs not War!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    MrBoogiejuice's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/5515
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

  20. I believe you made the comment

    'The key issue is the sort of anecdote that goes "I had an accident and
    I was wearing a helmet and if I didn't I'd be dead" is, frankly,
    bollocks. You simply don't know that. You can't know that unless you do
    it again identically and _are_ dead.'

    This does seem to suggest that you cannot know if wearing a helmet would
    have made a difference, but the quote only specifically mentions wether
    you would have died or not, and death by head injury is a very
    complicated matter, with alot of affecting parameters. However, skin
    abrasion is not nearly so complicated an affair, and the chances are
    that if your head slides along a tarmac road on a part of it which would
    otherwise be covered by a helmet then you will be injured in this way,
    whereas if your head doesnt touch the ground because of your helmet,
    then you won't.

    As for 'If the helmet split it didn't do any good (read up on plastic v.
    brittle failure modes)' id point you towards the griffith brittle
    fracture criterion, in particular its extension to semi brittle
    materials quite clearly shows that energy is needed to cause a crack, to
    be exact the 'new surafce energy' and also the plastic work at the tip
    of the crack. This means that energy has to be absorbed, do you have any
    substantiated argument that a helmet does no good even when it can be
    proved to have absorbed a large amount of energy?

    Dave

    --
    kington99

    - what a thoroughly post-modern subversion of the cycling genre -
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    kington99's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/9417
    View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/40443

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.