bad move by Lance

"Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:29:51 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
>> As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?
>
>I think Lance, who saw him get away, should have jumped on his pedals
>after
>him.
>
>Laz
>

It would be an interesting to question to post to Armstrong, whether
or not he feels he should have gone with him. With the roads being so
wet and the chances of Vino making second(needing that pile of
sprinters).

If Armstrong really "saw him get away" then I guess we have our
answer.

D

The way a good team does it is for one of it's sprinters to go with a guy
like Vino at the end (the rider should be marking him) and beat him to
the
line to take the bonus seconds from him. Eki would have done that quite
well and known to do it as well. The team leader is not the one who

expends

Quoted message said:

the energy to deny the time bonus.

But Lance was in the place to do that. The best chance he had to deny Vino
his time gain was to just go, he would lose valuable seconds just telling
a
teammate to go after him.

Best chance or not, on a wet and slippery road at team member is the one who
should cover the move and risk a crash, not the team leader. I really think
Eki would not have let Vino get away like that.

Quoted message said:

Hearing how angry he was over the loss of time for
that, I'm fairly certain he won't let that happen again, unless it's the
last day of the tour and he has the time to spare.

And today Vino shadowed Armstrong which had to be annoying for A. If Vino
had jumped either Armstrong or Hincapie would have had to chase and Vino
might well beat either of them to the line if timed right. Vino is going to
make this a really fun race to watch because Armstrong doesn't intimidate
him in the least.

Quoted message said:

Laz

<[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Stewart Fleming said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

They'll bring him back.

Jan's not what he used to be.

Alexandre,
You miss the point. When they bring back Ullrich, then Kloden goes.
Then Vino. Sitting back and waiting for the DSC tempo on the climbs is
a dumb strategy. TMO are VERY quiet just now. Stages 8 and 9 will be
interesting.

That's a good idea, but T-Mob have had five years to figure out
that waiting for USPS/Disco tempo doesn't work. Yet the only time
I can remember them laying down a good pre-emptive attack was Vino
in 2003 on the stage to Gap (the one where Beloki hit the dirt).
I'd like to see them do it, but have doubts.

Yes, most of the time I get the impression they're not willing to risk a
podium spot by attacking.

Beloki is a different story this year. He has nothing to lose. If he attacks
with power but bonks seriously, people will admire him for his fighting
spirit. His last years were so disappointing that he can only do better.
That is also why I think Heras is going to be such a big threat: he can send
Beloki ahead. In addition, Heras is willing to take risks, too. A bad tour
can always be made up in the Vuelta and I think he is very confident anyway.
Ah well, we shall see.

do you actually believe the stuff you say or is this just for show?

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:19:45 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Laz said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>
>
> So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
> As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?

I think Lance, who saw him get away, should have jumped on his pedals
after
him.

Laz

It would be an interesting to question to post to Armstrong, whether
or not he feels he should have gone with him. With the roads being so
wet and the chances of Vino making second(needing that pile of
sprinters).

If Armstrong really "saw him get away" then I guess we have our
answer.

D

The way a good team does it is for one of it's sprinters to go with a guy
like Vino at the end (the rider should be marking him) and beat him to the
line to take the bonus seconds from him. Eki would have done that quite
well and known to do it as well. The team leader is not the one who expends
the energy to deny the time bonus.

So you think they should send Eki, who you know they are going to
need, to battle Vino for a time bonus that is only going to happen if
the sprinters all get piled up or caught behind a crash?

"Lance Armstrong and the Discovery Channel team know Vino well. They
know how dangerous he is, and how he likes to race. Today, there was
nothing Lance could do about Vino's attack. The risks of going after
the T-Mobile rider were too high; especially considering the amount of
time Vino could gain. Crashing in pursuit of Vinokourov, to save 20
seconds, could have easily cost Lance the entire Tour. It wasn't worth
the risk, which became even more evident after so many riders came
down in the final corner."
Chris Carmichael.

D

David Ferguson said:

It would be an interesting to question to post to Armstrong, whether
or not he feels he should have gone with him. With the roads being so
wet and the chances of Vino making second(needing that pile of
sprinters).

If Armstrong really "saw him get away" then I guess we have our
answer.

D

Damn - Reading this makes me wish that instead of Vino making a late
race gamble in the wet with PANTS at the head of the field, it had been
FILIPPO SIMEONI charging off the front for a career-making stage win.
I'd love to see PANTS eat [censored] into the barriers trying to stop that.

-RJ

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

. Vino is going to
make this a really fun race to watch because Armstrong doesn't intimidate
him in the least.

Quoted message said:

Agreed.

Laz

David Ferguson said:

So you think they should send Eki, who you know they are going to
need, to battle Vino for a time bonus that is only going to happen if
the sprinters all get piled up or caught behind a crash?

This discussion is getting seriously removed from reality - what they
SHOULD have done IF Eki had been riding this year? How about:

* What they should have done w/o the new TTT timing rules
* What they should have done if Dave Z hadn't crashed
* What they should have done if Jan was showing good form this year
* What they should have done if Vino was already 1:32 up on Lance
* What they should have done if Beloki hadn't crashed in '03 and was the
main rival this year
* What they should have done if Eddy was riding for win #36 this year

Why be constrained by reality?

Mark

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

do you actually believe the stuff you say or is this just for show?

It's all reality based from prior Tours, Giri and Vueltas. You'll also see
some of the same tactics used by competitors in other jersey competitions
(i.e., Points Jersey) where time bonuses are on offer and a teammate of the
leader sprints to prevent a rival from gaining the bonus. This is really
standard racing tactics.

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:19:45 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:29:51 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
>> As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?
>
>I think Lance, who saw him get away, should have jumped on his pedals
>after
>him.
>
>Laz
>

It would be an interesting to question to post to Armstrong, whether
or not he feels he should have gone with him. With the roads being so
wet and the chances of Vino making second(needing that pile of
sprinters).

If Armstrong really "saw him get away" then I guess we have our
answer.

D

The way a good team does it is for one of it's sprinters to go with a guy
like Vino at the end (the rider should be marking him) and beat him to the
line to take the bonus seconds from him. Eki would have done that quite
well and known to do it as well. The team leader is not the one who
expends
the energy to deny the time bonus.

So you think they should send Eki, who you know they are going to
need, to battle Vino for a time bonus that is only going to happen if
the sprinters all get piled up or caught behind a crash?

I don't think they'll be sending Eki anything from the Tour other than get
well cards.

Quoted message said:

"Lance Armstrong and the Discovery Channel team know Vino well. They
know how dangerous he is, and how he likes to race. Today, there was
nothing Lance could do about Vino's attack. The risks of going after
the T-Mobile rider were too high; especially considering the amount of
time Vino could gain. Crashing in pursuit of Vinokourov, to save 20
seconds, could have easily cost Lance the entire Tour. It wasn't worth
the risk, which became even more evident after so many riders came
down in the final corner."

We're not talking about Armstrong doing the chasing. Carmichael is talking
garbage to cover the lack of tactical acumen by the Discoverers on the road.

Quoted message said:

Chris Carmichael.

D

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:24:11 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

do you actually believe the stuff you say or is this just for show?

It's all reality based from prior Tours, Giri and Vueltas. You'll also see
some of the same tactics used by competitors in other jersey competitions
(i.e., Points Jersey) where time bonuses are on offer and a teammate of the
leader sprints to prevent a rival from gaining the bonus. This is really
standard racing tactics.

Not that part. I was talking about the part where you said Vino isn't
intimidated by Armstrong.

My post was to say "Well no kidding". The guy is a professional. There
is nobody out there so intimidated by Armstrong that they can't do
their job.

And I hope Vino does make a race of it.

D

David Ferguson said:

My post was to say "Well no kidding". The guy is a professional. There
is nobody out there so intimidated by Armstrong that they can't do
their job.

Dumbass -

Filippo Simeoni in the TdF last year.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:24:11 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

do you actually believe the stuff you say or is this just for show?

It's all reality based from prior Tours, Giri and Vueltas. You'll also
see
some of the same tactics used by competitors in other jersey competitions
(i.e., Points Jersey) where time bonuses are on offer and a teammate of
the
leader sprints to prevent a rival from gaining the bonus. This is really
standard racing tactics.

Not that part. I was talking about the part where you said Vino isn't
intimidated by Armstrong.

My post was to say "Well no kidding". The guy is a professional. There
is nobody out there so intimidated by Armstrong that they can't do
their job.

There are riders so intimidated by him that they don't really try to beat
him. The same situation existed when Indurain was at the top and other
riders were afraid to attack. (Hinault's opinion at the time).

How long did you say you've been following bicycle racing?

Kurgan Gringioni said:

David Ferguson said:

My post was to say "Well no kidding". The guy is a professional. There
is nobody out there so intimidated by Armstrong that they can't do
their job.

Dumbass -

Filippo Simeoni in the TdF last year.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Lol

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:41:21 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:24:11 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> do you actually believe the stuff you say or is this just for show?

It's all reality based from prior Tours, Giri and Vueltas. You'll also
see
some of the same tactics used by competitors in other jersey competitions
(i.e., Points Jersey) where time bonuses are on offer and a teammate of
the
leader sprints to prevent a rival from gaining the bonus. This is really
standard racing tactics.

Not that part. I was talking about the part where you said Vino isn't
intimidated by Armstrong.

My post was to say "Well no kidding". The guy is a professional. There
is nobody out there so intimidated by Armstrong that they can't do
their job.

There are riders so intimidated by him that they don't really try to beat
him. The same situation existed when Indurain was at the top and other
riders were afraid to attack. (Hinault's opinion at the time).

How long did you say you've been following bicycle racing?

A long damn time, but I'm only 34 so I can't be responsible for the
20's and 30's like you old farts.

Some were (and are) afraid to attack because they know they are
stirring up a hornets nest that is only going to sting them. That's a
form of intimidation I suppose but to suggest Basso, Jan, Vino,
Julich, Kloden and many others are so intimidated by the almighty
Armstrong that they can't attack, I think that's incorrect.

And the rest of them are not so intimidated that they can't do their
job. Granted, they're not going to go attacking but many of them
wouldn't do that against Heras, Basso or Vino either. Not everyone can
be Pantani.

D

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:41:21 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:24:11 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>
>"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> do you actually believe the stuff you say or is this just for show?
>
>It's all reality based from prior Tours, Giri and Vueltas. You'll also
>see
>some of the same tactics used by competitors in other jersey
>competitions
>(i.e., Points Jersey) where time bonuses are on offer and a teammate of
>the
>leader sprints to prevent a rival from gaining the bonus. This is
>really
>standard racing tactics.
>

Not that part. I was talking about the part where you said Vino isn't
intimidated by Armstrong.

My post was to say "Well no kidding". The guy is a professional. There
is nobody out there so intimidated by Armstrong that they can't do
their job.

There are riders so intimidated by him that they don't really try to beat
him. The same situation existed when Indurain was at the top and other
riders were afraid to attack. (Hinault's opinion at the time).

How long did you say you've been following bicycle racing?

A long damn time, but I'm only 34 so I can't be responsible for the
20's and 30's like you old farts.

Not very long at all.

Quoted message said:

Some were (and are) afraid to attack because they know they are
stirring up a hornets nest that is only going to sting them. That's a
form of intimidation I suppose but to suggest Basso, Jan, Vino,
Julich, Kloden and many others are so intimidated by the almighty
Armstrong that they can't attack, I think that's incorrect.

And the rest of them are not so intimidated that they can't do their
job. Granted, they're not going to go attacking but many of them
wouldn't do that against Heras, Basso or Vino either. Not everyone can
be Pantani.

D

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A long damn time, but I'm only 34 so I can't be responsible for the
20's and 30's like you old farts.

Not very long at all.

Got any pictures of yourself on a high wheel as a boy?
D

David Ferguson said:

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:19:45 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:29:51 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
>> As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?
>
>I think Lance, who saw him get away, should have jumped on his pedals
>after
>him.
>
>Laz
>

It would be an interesting to question to post to Armstrong, whether
or not he feels he should have gone with him. With the roads being so
wet and the chances of Vino making second(needing that pile of
sprinters).

If Armstrong really "saw him get away" then I guess we have our
answer.

D

The way a good team does it is for one of it's sprinters to go with a guy
like Vino at the end (the rider should be marking him) and beat him to the
line to take the bonus seconds from him. Eki would have done that quite
well and known to do it as well. The team leader is not the one who expends
the energy to deny the time bonus.

So you think they should send Eki, who you know they are going to
need, to battle Vino for a time bonus that is only going to happen if
the sprinters all get piled up or caught behind a crash?

"Lance Armstrong and the Discovery Channel team know Vino well. They
know how dangerous he is, and how he likes to race. Today, there was
nothing Lance could do about Vino's attack. The risks of going after
the T-Mobile rider were too high; especially considering the amount of
time Vino could gain. Crashing in pursuit of Vinokourov, to save 20
seconds, could have easily cost Lance the entire Tour. It wasn't worth
the risk, which became even more evident after so many riders came
down in the final corner."
Chris Carmichael.

D

David Ferguson wrote:

"So you think they should send Eki, who you know they are going to
need, to battle Vino for a time bonus that is only going to happen if
the sprinters all get piled up or caught behind a crash?"

What's this Eki stuff? Eki's at home, presumbably watch on TV. The
only thing he's gonna be sent for is pizza.

r

Quoted message said:

David Ferguson said:

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:19:45 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:29:51 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0400, "Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So you think DSC should have gone after Vino?
>>> As a team, just a couple, Armstrong too?
>>
>>I think Lance, who saw him get away, should have jumped on his pedals
>>after
>>him.
>>
>>Laz
>>
>
>
> It would be an interesting to question to post to Armstrong, whether
> or not he feels he should have gone with him. With the roads being so
> wet and the chances of Vino making second(needing that pile of
> sprinters).
>
> If Armstrong really "saw him get away" then I guess we have our
> answer.
>
> D

The way a good team does it is for one of it's sprinters to go with a guy
like Vino at the end (the rider should be marking him) and beat him to the
line to take the bonus seconds from him. Eki would have done that quite
well and known to do it as well. The team leader is not the one who expends
the energy to deny the time bonus.

So you think they should send Eki, who you know they are going to
need, to battle Vino for a time bonus that is only going to happen if
the sprinters all get piled up or caught behind a crash?

"Lance Armstrong and the Discovery Channel team know Vino well. They
know how dangerous he is, and how he likes to race. Today, there was
nothing Lance could do about Vino's attack. The risks of going after
the T-Mobile rider were too high; especially considering the amount of
time Vino could gain. Crashing in pursuit of Vinokourov, to save 20
seconds, could have easily cost Lance the entire Tour. It wasn't worth
the risk, which became even more evident after so many riders came
down in the final corner."
Chris Carmichael.

D

David Ferguson wrote:

"So you think they should send Eki, who you know they are going to
need, to battle Vino for a time bonus that is only going to happen if
the sprinters all get piled up or caught behind a crash?"

What's this Eki stuff? Eki's at home, presumbably watch on TV. The
only thing he's gonna be sent for is pizza.

r

Lafferty brought him in as a hypothetical person to go run Vino down.
We are fully aware that he's not riding this year. But you already
knew that we knew.

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A long damn time, but I'm only 34 so I can't be responsible for the
20's and 30's like you old farts.

Not very long at all.

Got any pictures of yourself on a high wheel as a boy?
D

SASE +$25 and I'll send you one autographed. :-)

David Ferguson said:

do you actually believe the stuff you say or is this just for show?

I assume you're referring to everyone in this thread.