Quit knocking Zabel.

Zabel has hurt Ullrich by taking the place of a climbing domestique. Ullrich was not done any favours this year by the inclusion of Steinhausen, who did nothing to add to the team.

This is nothing against Zabel who has a most distinguished career.

For all of you thinking this move (by Zabel) is freeing up a place or money to support Ullrich in the Tour next year I think it is too late.

Ullrich showed this year that, although he was up there in the TT, he didn't have the ability to attack in the mountains. My belief is that it is too late for Ullrich. There are other riders, like Basso and Vino and a handful of others who will probably contest the GC next year.

I personally think Vino is overrated..........oke he attacks a lot (his strength, but it haunts him back with bad days; too inconsistent!) and you are forgetting that there was probably a huge pressure from sponsors to finally go all out for GC, so no sprinter.....

mitosis said:

Zabel has hurt Ullrich by taking the place of a climbing domestique. Ullrich was not done any favours this year by the inclusion of Steinhausen, who did nothing to add to the team.

This is nothing against Zabel who has a most distinguished career.

For all of you thinking this move (by Zabel) is freeing up a place or money to support Ullrich in the Tour next year I think it is too late.

Ullrich showed this year that, although he was up there in the TT, he didn't have the ability to attack in the mountains. My belief is that it is too late for Ullrich. There are other riders, like Basso and Vino and a handful of others who will probably contest the GC next year.

MJtje said:

I personally think Vino is overrated..........oke he attacks a lot (his strength, but it haunts him back with bad days; too inconsistent!) and you are forgetting that there was probably a huge pressure from sponsors to finally go all out for GC, so no sprinter.....

Zabel is a great rider but if you cannot relate to the rest of your team then you are not really part of the team. I have reserved my knowledge on this subject until now. But...I guess it doesn't matter anymore
Yep, Vino is inconsistent. I have said this before but he is a scrappy little SOB.
Consider my take on it. Don't count him out he has an amazingly quick recovery.
Jan has one more year with TM contract...then who knows but he has had some offers already.
I hope Tyler is allowed to come back for another season. Good sport ,either way.

mitosis said:

Zabel has hurt Ullrich by taking the place of a climbing domestique. Ullrich was not done any favours this year by the inclusion of Steinhausen, who did nothing to add to the team.

This is exactly my point. What mountain domestique? T-Mobile doesn't have any climbing domestiques that aren't already on the Tour team.

Zabel wouldn't have taken up any space on this year's team.

T-Mobile lost a great chance at the green jersey by leaving Zabel off.

Zabel also hurt JU when Zabel was included on the TdF team because his inclusion tended to support Aldag's inclusion on the team, and Aldag is not too useful in the mountains.

Vino at least had some strategic value and could (at least theoretically) have been useful to JU.

tcklyde said:

This is exactly my point. What mountain domestique? T-Mobile doesn't have any climbing domestiques that aren't already on the Tour team.

Zabel wouldn't have taken up any space on this year's team.

T-Mobile lost a great chance at the green jersey by leaving Zabel off.

I don't think so. Zabel hasn't been able to match it with the best sprinters for a couple of years. Even with Boonen out and McEwen not gaining points for one stage it is probable he would still have finished below the winner.

He certainly wouldn't have cost them anything being there. Vino gave T mobile two stage wins, so you could argue he did Zabel's job anyway.

tcklyde said:

This is exactly my point. What mountain domestique? T-Mobile doesn't have any climbing domestiques that aren't already on the Tour team.

Yes, it did. Paco Lara.

But I agree that the TM TdF team for 05 was chosen poorly, including it seems like by JU. Steinhauser was chosen just for being JU's friend and moral support. Come on?! 😠 Not when LA has the likes of Popo, Paolo, Hincapie, Beltran (we didn't know he was going to fall then), Ace, Chechu -- all climbing. Not when LA is himself stronger than JU in the high mountains. Who else gets to be on the TM team (presumably to address media criticism that TM is not nurturing young riders): Schreck. I mean -- come on. They are gunning for DC and they include.... Schreck. 😕 I made these comments before the TdF re: Schreck and Steinhauser being particularly bad selections.

But I agree that TM's roster is in need of more and higher quality climbing domestiques, especially since that is JU's area of potential vulnerability relative to Basso next year. They should focus on mountain domestiques who can time trial at least not badly, which is what all the DC domestiques can do (not that they can be recruited away). JU needs another few Guerinis. Just like LA once told Chechu's agent that he could use a team with a few more Chechus and whether there were any people to be recruited like Chechu.

Fortunately, Zabel's departure allows the hiring of one major mountain domestique (if one is available) with Zabel's salary. :p Then, Vino's salary will allow another major mountain domestique, if TM has its priorities correct and does not try to recruit a sprinter, who would not be useful to JU's overall chances at the TdF.

tomkay said:

Since sprinters don't cost anything to the GC guys then perhaps we will see a sprinter in Discovery's lineup at this years Tour? I don't think so! (Atleast not if Lance has anything to say about it). It's not 1997 anymore, things have changed. If you want your team to win everyone and I mean everyone has to be comitted to helping the leader win. You can't have sideshows distracting you from the ultimate goal anymore.

I fail to see how competing for the green jersey could be called a sideshow. It takes real guts to ride the way the sprinters do and Zabel is the best at it. That is why he won 6 green jerseys and had he been included in the T-Mobile team this year, at the Tour de France, he would have been a contender again.

When I first started watching the Tour in 2000 I had no alleigance to any rider or team but, I quickly grew to really love Zabel because of his gutsy riding. I also quickly became an Ullrich fan for I could see that Lance was a "totally protected rider" who had a team that's sole purpose was to secure a win for their leader. I was not impressed with him for that reason but I saw Ullrich slogging along wit that huge gear that he uses, and he seemed to me to be doing it more on his own then Lance, with his team always surrounding him like bodyguards.

The green jersey competition is very exciting and it goes right down to the last day. Zabel is great at it and I really respect him

gylfie said:

I fail to see how competing for the green jersey could be called a sideshow. It takes real guts to ride the way the sprinters do and Zabel is the best at it. That is why he won 6 green jerseys and had he been included in the T-Mobile team this year, at the Tour de France, he would have been a contender again.

When I first started watching the Tour in 2000 I had no alleigance to any rider or team but, I quickly grew to really love Zabel because of his gutsy riding. I also quickly became an Ullrich fan for I could see that Lance was a "totally protected rider" who had a team that's sole purpose was to secure a win for their leader. I was not impressed with him for that reason but I saw Ullrich slogging along wit that huge gear that he uses, and he seemed to me to be doing it more on his own then Lance, with his team always surrounding him like bodyguards.

The green jersey competition is very exciting and it goes right down to the last day. Zabel is great at it and I really respect him

I agree for the most part. I dont think the Green and sprinting battle is just a sideshow, and doesnt have to be that way for a team with GC honours on their mind. Zabel has been a worthy winner in the past and this years Tour would of been his best shot in years to win it. He cant get close to beating McEwen or Boonen but there was only 4 or 5 pure sprint stages for them this year. (tough tough Tour for those guys) Thats not alot and the margin for error was small. If you missed a bunch kick then you were effectively out of the running. Next year i assume they will get 8 or 9 stages to show their stuff, this plays much more into the hands of Boonen and co. Also like this years Tour, the fastest/best most deserving sprinter does not always win the Green. Just the most regular. I think the Green is past Zabel but he does have some sorta shot at it. He would probably now need to go about it the way OGrady does. Thats getting up the road in a breakaway and getting a win or more points that way.

tcklyde said:

After last year's Tour and with this one coming up, a lot of people are complaining that Zabel is a liability to Ullrich. And suggesting that Zabel shouldn't ride the Tour this year so that Ulle can win.

Zabel is/was not a liability to Ullrich. Ullrich is a liability to Ullrich.
Seemed nearly every time the camera caught JA he was 2 wheels behind Armstrong, his eyes boring into the back of LA's neck, giving a pretty good impersonation of a rabbit caught in a spotlight.
Roll on 2006 when, to quote Patrick O'Ogrady, Ulle will be Basso's [censored] instead of Armstrong's.

I'm not saying that Zabel was the only liability to JU. Obviously, JU is contributing to some of his own problems at the TdF. However, Zabel was a major liability when he was on the TdF team; he took up essentially two spaces, as I doubt Aldag would have been chosen without his role in generally assisting Zabel (as well as other, domestique-type roles). TM's problems are vast, and they begin with recruiting and extend to, among other things, choosing their TdF team.

Steinhauser and Schreck, I argued from the time they were chosen, were inappropriate and did not really help JU (at least except for moral support in the case of Steinhauser) the way some other choices could have.

musette said:

I'm not saying that Zabel was the only liability to JU. Obviously, JU is contributing to some of his own problems at the TdF. However, Zabel was a major liability when he was on the TdF team; he took up essentially two spaces, as I doubt Aldag would have been chosen without his role in generally assisting Zabel (as well as other, domestique-type roles). TM's problems are vast, and they begin with recruiting and extend to, among other things, choosing their TdF team.

Steinhauser and Schreck, I argued from the time they were chosen, were inappropriate and did not really help JU (at least except for moral support in the case of Steinhauser) the way some other choices could have.

Zabel did not get along with other team members. When the team traveled Zabel stay in a different facility often times.
I knew of this before but did not think it proper to discuss it in open forum,but I guess it doesn't matter now..
Steinhauser is obviously at T-Mobile because of Ullrich. This next season will most likely be his last with the team.
That is of course an opinion and not a know fact. He has bought a clothing line and will probably spend more time in it's development.
O'le Europe is the name of it and I believe Ullrich is getting involved with his own sports wear venture.

jhuskey said:

Zabel did not get along with other team members. When the team traveled Zabel stay in a different facility often times.

Interesting. However, Zabel wouldn't be the first pro to do that and still hold a spot on a team.
Also, the documentary "Hell on Wheels" seems to contradict this, showing him to be pretty chummy with Klodi et al.
When Team Telekom last did the Tour Down Under, the entire field stayed at one hotel in the middle of town, except the Telekoms who were somewhere else.
It doesn't seem to matter what they do, over the past few years they have always arrived at Le Tour as a house divided.

fatboy61 said:

Interesting. However, Zabel wouldn't be the first pro to do that and still hold a spot on a team.
Also, the documentary "Hell on Wheels" seems to contradict this, showing him to be pretty chummy with Klodi et al.
When Team Telekom last did the Tour Down Under, the entire field stayed at one hotel in the middle of town, except the Telekoms who were somewhere else.
It doesn't seem to matter what they do, over the past few years they have always arrived at Le Tour as a house divided.

I am going to inquire about the questionable tactics in the Tour. Maybe I can get some bit of logic out of it from Steinhauser.
Good or bad the team should have a somewhat new look next season.

"Besides the already announced departures of Alexander Vinokourov, Sergey Yakovlev (both Kazakhstan/to Liberty Seguros) and Erik Zabel, five other riders are set to leave the Bonn-based team. "We are not extending the contracts of Sergey Ivanov, Tomas Konecny, Jan Schaffrath, Torsten Hiekmann and Christian Werner," said Ludwig."

Good, get rid of the people who would not have made the Tour team anyhow. Sergei Ivanov made it one year, but he wasn't particularly helpful. Other people should also be axed.

Zabel has exacted a promise from the team he will join that he will be on the TdF team. To say, therefore, that his omission from the 05 TdF team was not a dispositive point in Zabel/TM breakage of negotiations may be avoiding the question of whether Zabel's future participation in the TdF (or not) was crucial to Zabel's departure. We know that Zabel's departure was not predominantly related to money. So what would it have related to, except for future TdF participation, if it was a sporting reason? 😉

"The 35-year-old German sprinter... will join an undisclosed team that has guaranteed him a place at cycling's premier event under a three-year contract."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/more/07/31/zabel.tmobile.ap/

This is somewhat interesting. Bild newspaper reports, very roughly translated:

"Erik Zabel gets a new superteam - the team with Alessandro Petacchi... According to "Frankfurt Rundschau", the new team is to be built from parts of the Italian Domina Vacanze team and the German Wiesenhof team (the latter intended to be dissolved at the end of the season). Domina Vacanze is going to remain title sponsor, but the most important co-sponsor is the Bremen dairy/milk company north .... With one of Zabel's greatest competitors, Petacchi, on his own team, tensions could mount ...."

A German co-sponsor could explain why Domina would want to recruit Zabel after having signed up Petacchi. The question is why Zabel would want to be on the same team as Petacchi? Has Petacchi given indications that, in 06, he might not want to participate in the TdF (like he did not participate in 05)? Is the understanding that, even if Petacchi participated, Zabel would not need to win sprints, but could come in second or third and mop up green jersey points if he stayed in the race longer than Petacchi (past the mountains)?

TM site:

"Reports are rife in the German press that Erik Zabel and Alessandro Petacchi are set to link up next year in an Italo-German Protour outfit. German dairy company Nordmilch, based in Bremen, is being mooted [sic; reported] to step on board with Domina Vacanze as a co-sponsor. The dairy firm has been seeking a new medium to promote and market its Milram brand range, and looks to have targeted the veteran Zabel as the perfect man to spearhead the promotion.... German media report also state that Nordmilch will recruit a further ten German riders. Gianluigi Stanga, the Domina Vacanze team boss, wants to keep the team predominantly Italian, at least 60%... There is also speculation that Wiesenhof boss Jörg Stenger will contribute the remaining 40% of the team. Rumours to the contrary suggest however that that Wiesenhof and fellow Continental outfit Akud-Arnold Sicherheitare set to merge. What is certain is that Wisenhof will end its sponsorship engagement at the end of the year."

Procycling has it right -- Erik Zabel is a figurehead, no longer the sprinter he was.

"Star signing and team figurehead Erik Zabel – minus lederhosen – spoke of how the birth of the new team gave him “enormous motivation” ahead of the 2006 season. Team marketing director Jörg Strenger confirmed that Zabel would target the Tour de France next year with Milram co-leader Alessandro Petacchi focusing on the Giro...." (procycling)

""Milram allows me the chance to pursue races which are very dear to me, such as the Tour de France which wasn't possible at T-Mobile," said Zabel." (velonews)

If the Milram team has Zabel as their TdF leader, as they appear to be intending to do, you will know what they could get -- no wins there! 😉 I knew Zabel was smarting over his exclusion from the TdF at TM. :p

Alejet+Zabel+Stuart O'Grady (and his lead-out man M White)? Why does Milram need all three? 😕