How can I get better at racing

Jamie said:

I too am in the same dilemma as ALG in a previous post.
I tried for my first time at a Crit, and got lapped.
Yes I know about skills, and stuff, but how can I possibly get better and
keep up with the pack.
I think skill is a very little factor in this.
I think 99% is stamina and strength to keep up.
For example, any C grade riders here ??
What Max HR are you pumping during a 40 minute Crit race.

I mean you can only push your body so far, so I don't see how a Cycling
Coach can help you .

J

Well if you believe your own post give up, otherwise ask a question regarding th ethinks you could improve:

Skills will be a factor, poor skills will cost you heaps in additional effort out of each corner.

A coach or self coaching will give you a range of different efforts to build up the fdifferent aspects of physiology that are required in a crit, improved Vo2Max, improved lactic acid tolerance and increased muscular efficency.

Only time you should be even close to max HR is likely to be the sprint at the finish.

PiledHigher

Jamie said:

I too am in the same dilemma as ALG in a previous post.
I tried for my first time at a Crit, and got lapped.
Yes I know about skills, and stuff, but how can I possibly get better and
keep up with the pack.
I think skill is a very little factor in this.
I think 99% is stamina and strength to keep up.
For example, any C grade riders here ??
What Max HR are you pumping during a 40 minute Crit race.

I mean you can only push your body so far, so I don't see how a Cycling
Coach can help you .

I'll bite. I'm new to racing and am riding C grade.

I find in the pack there there are people with wildly varying fitness
levels. Racing skill plays a massive part in staying in the optimal
position in the pack. If you aren't you are working far harder than you
need to be and come the right parts of the race you have enough to pump
out short spurts.

As a direct example I haven't been lapped in a crit as yet. But the last
road race I rode, I ran onto the shoulder from mid pack after I'd been
leading the pack around for about half the race (and feeling very
strong). It happened as I lost concentration and I needed to slow to
safely get back into the pack, lost the wheel of the back of the pack
and got dropped. The harder I worked the further they seemed to get
away. I'm sure that if I hadn't made the mental error from a fitness
point of view staying in the pack would have been no real issue.

Max HR is not a measure of fitness. My HR when I'm racing over shorter
distances sits around 170, enduro racing (up to 12 hrs) it sits closer
to 150. My mate has a very similar fitness level (and age) to me and
racing is lucky to get past 150.

There are cycling coaches on this group maybe they can better guide you
as to their benefits. However I'll note that while part of their
guidance might be tactical, I'm sure much larger parts of their input is
development and management of a structured training program that has has
you building a base and peaking at the right time.

Brett

I think you should concentrate on doing as many kms as possible.

To ride effectively in C-grade you need to be doing 200-300 kms per
week at 33-35km/h.

Technique is something you can 'tweak' later on.

I think you should concentrate on doing as many kms as possible.

To ride effectively in C-grade you need to be doing 200-300 kms per
week at 33-35km/h.

Technique is something you can 'tweak' later on.

"Jamie" wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I too am in the same dilemma as ALG in a previous post.
I tried for my first time at a Crit, and got lapped.
Yes I know about skills, and stuff, but how can I possibly get better and
keep up with the pack.
I think skill is a very little factor in this.

Great to see more and more people are getting into racing! I'll have a stab
at answering your queries - though there are people in here who can give
much better advice than me...

The skill is in riding close enough to a wheel that you end up doing less
work.. then there is skill in knowing the course, where you can get a
'rest', where you _may_ get dropped.. the skill of knowing your limits and
when to conserve... It may sound stupid, but basic bike handling plays a
big part in the racing I've done. Positioning into and out of a corner (we
all know the one I'm talking about) could mean the difference of being at
the front, or 5th in a matter of seconds.

Quoted message said:

I think 99% is stamina and strength to keep up.

Correct, though make that 100% 🙂... Look at your training program -
evaluate this against a good training book (I see mention of the book '7
weeks to the perfect ride' in other threads) and get to work!..

Quoted message said:

For example, any C grade riders here ??

I think I graduated to B grade after yesterday.. I find it strange you are
asking about C grade? Have you raced/learnt your way though D grade? I am
a believer of earning your 'stripes' in a lower grade before moving up...
Given that, I didn't follow my own advice.. After winning my first D grade
race, I found C grade pace matched my skill and ability when I started out
racing..

Quoted message said:

What Max HR are you pumping during a 40 minute Crit race.

Wearing a HRM on a crit? Are you crazy!? I'll just tell you to stop!.. Max
HR also depends on a large number of factors.. and also how cute the chicks
are running around the crit course while you race 🙂

Quoted message said:

I mean you can only push your body so far, so I don't see how a Cycling
Coach can help you .

They'll help in kicking your ass when you have done as much as you can
alone.. I'm considering coaching in the next month or so for technique and
an evaluation of my potential, I assume a good coach will be able to spot
someone who has ability, good legs, etc..

Are you in Melbourne? Come along to a BR where you'll find riders of all
skills and experience.. In all honesty I have the BR (and the regulars) to
thank for my increased interest in cycling and racing... If only I was 10
years younger I'd be going crazy to become pro 🙂... arh well, I have 7
years of 'base training' until I'm in the vets group 😉

cheers,
GPL

"Jamie" wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I too am in the same dilemma as ALG in a previous post.
I tried for my first time at a Crit, and got lapped.
Yes I know about skills, and stuff, but how can I possibly get better and
keep up with the pack.
I think skill is a very little factor in this.

Great to see more and more people are getting into racing! I'll have a stab
at answering your queries - though there are people in here who can give
much better advice than me...

The skill is in riding close enough to a wheel that you end up doing less
work.. then there is skill in knowing the course, where you can get a
'rest', where you _may_ get dropped.. the skill of knowing your limits and
when to conserve... It may sound stupid, but basic bike handling plays a
big part in the racing I've done. Positioning into and out of a corner (we
all know the one I'm talking about) could mean the difference of being at
the front, or 5th in a matter of seconds.

Quoted message said:

I think 99% is stamina and strength to keep up.

Correct, though make that 100% 🙂... Look at your training program -
evaluate this against a good training book (I see mention of the book '7
weeks to the perfect ride' in other threads) and get to work!..

Quoted message said:

For example, any C grade riders here ??

I think I graduated to B grade after yesterday.. I find it strange you are
asking about C grade? Have you raced/learnt your way though D grade? I am
a believer of earning your 'stripes' in a lower grade before moving up...
Given that, I didn't follow my own advice.. After winning my first D grade
race, I found C grade pace matched my skill and ability when I started out
racing..

Quoted message said:

What Max HR are you pumping during a 40 minute Crit race.

Wearing a HRM on a crit? Are you crazy!? I'll just tell you to stop!.. Max
HR also depends on a large number of factors.. and also how cute the chicks
are running around the crit course while you race 🙂

Quoted message said:

I mean you can only push your body so far, so I don't see how a Cycling
Coach can help you .

They'll help in kicking your ass when you have done as much as you can
alone.. I'm considering coaching in the next month or so for technique and
an evaluation of my potential, I assume a good coach will be able to spot
someone who has ability, good legs, etc..

Are you in Melbourne? Come along to a BR where you'll find riders of all
skills and experience.. In all honesty I have the BR (and the regulars) to
thank for my increased interest in cycling and racing... If only I was 10
years younger I'd be going crazy to become pro 🙂... arh well, I have 7
years of 'base training' until I'm in the vets group 😉

cheers,
GPL

"D" wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I think you should concentrate on doing as many kms as possible.

To ride effectively in C-grade you need to be doing 200-300 kms per
week at 33-35km/h.

Coorrr.. maybe if you only ride on "__________" <- Beach Rd! 🙂 I'd place
my bets on the quality of the training, not the quantity of kms and speeds..
though they aren't far off.. 🙂 hills/intervals/indoor trainers/rest days
all have a big effect on averages..

cheers,
GPL

"D" wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I think you should concentrate on doing as many kms as possible.

To ride effectively in C-grade you need to be doing 200-300 kms per
week at 33-35km/h.

Coorrr.. maybe if you only ride on "__________" <- Beach Rd! 🙂 I'd place
my bets on the quality of the training, not the quantity of kms and speeds..
though they aren't far off.. 🙂 hills/intervals/indoor trainers/rest days
all have a big effect on averages..

cheers,
GPL

GPLama said:

Coorrr.. maybe if you only ride on "__________" <- Beach Rd! 🙂 I'd place
my bets on the quality of the training, not the quantity of kms and speeds..
though they aren't far off.. 🙂 hills/intervals/indoor trainers/rest days
all have a big effect on averages..

damn ... now i 'need' to buy a trainer!!

brett

Jamie said:

I too am in the same dilemma as ALG in a previous post.
I tried for my first time at a Crit, and got lapped.
Yes I know about skills, and stuff, but how can I possibly get better and
keep up with the pack.
I think skill is a very little factor in this.
I think 99% is stamina and strength to keep up.
For example, any C grade riders here ??
What Max HR are you pumping during a 40 minute Crit race.

I mean you can only push your body so far, so I don't see how a Cycling
Coach can help you .

J

Other people have addressed this in this thread, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway.

If you got lapped in your first race, it doesn't really speak for your fitness because you may have been caught out by a lack of skills. If you get lapped every time you race, you're probably in the wrong grade.

One thing I've found is that the difference between grades is less about speed differences and more about the variation in speed. (A-graders excepted... they're still too b...dy fast for me!). You can adapt to speed changes by increasing fitness (to stay on the wheel) and skill (to read the changes in pace to avoid being caught out).

Another thing I found is that a 40min race is more or less flat out all the way, while a 1.5-2hr race is slower on average but has some wicked pace changes!

2 cents from a B-grader (no wins this year... yet)

Ritch

"Jamie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I too am in the same dilemma as ALG in a previous post.
I tried for my first time at a Crit, and got lapped.
Yes I know about skills, and stuff, but how can I possibly get better and
keep up with the pack.
I think skill is a very little factor in this.
I think 99% is stamina and strength to keep up.

I think you'll see from all the other replies that most racers think
otherwise, but you'll have to work on both.

Quoted message said:

For example, any C grade riders here ??
What Max HR are you pumping during a 40 minute Crit race.

Don't use Max HR, a percentage of your maximum is a better guide
to the intensity. Most crits and hard road races I would average
around 80-87% of my maximum. I would only hit maximum in the
sprint, or maybe a big attack on a hill (like last week when I had
a "Vinokourov" moment 🙂 Time trials would be about 90-92%.
Anything below an average of 80% of MHR for me would be
easy. I'm *guessing* that would be typical of most racers, but
everyone is different.

Quoted message said:

I mean you can only push your body so far, so I don't see how a Cycling
Coach can help you .

Push it, recover, push it again....At the risk of sounding "wanky",
if you really want to improve do what the rest of us do who live
and breathe racing...read every book you can find, get some
sort of structured training happening, get up early out of the
warm bed to go riding, find other nuts to go riding with who
will push you along. If you really want it you've just got to
keep working at it. If you tell friends and workmates what you
do on the bike and they look at you funny and call you mad
you know you are on the right track.

If you work at it, every couple of weeks you will feel a definate
improvement, especially when you're starting out. Let us know
how you go!

Adam

"Jamie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I too am in the same dilemma as ALG in a previous post.
I tried for my first time at a Crit, and got lapped.
Yes I know about skills, and stuff, but how can I possibly get better and
keep up with the pack.
I think skill is a very little factor in this.
I think 99% is stamina and strength to keep up.
For example, any C grade riders here ??
What Max HR are you pumping during a 40 minute Crit race.

Skills in a crit has got a LOT to do with it. Over the last couple of
seasons I've had quite a few of my friends try crits for the first time, and
since I'm in E grade, they usually start out in my grade. Despite them
being fitter and faster than me they usually end up getting lapped in their
first race (or couple of races). The skills in crits are: being able to
concentrate for the 35mins (or however long the race is) being able to
corner, being able to hold a wheel, and knowing your weaknesses so you can
try to be at the front of the bunch rather than the back when your weakness
will get exposed. The crits that most people start with here in Adelaide
are flat and fast at regency park, and even E-grade regularly averages 37kmh
and sometimes over 39kmh. Once you get a little bit of a gap off the back -
you're screwed...
It only takes a touch of the brakes, a little too much of a gap left or a
lapse in concentration and my fitter friends leave a little gap and they
have to fight to get back on the pack. Do that more than a few times during
a race and you're toast!!

An example is a mate of mine got shelled after about 15 mins. After the
race he wanted to know what my maximum speed was down the back straight,
because he's hit 55kmh a few times. I hadn't gone more than 46kmh - it was
his yo-yo-ing at the back that buggered him out! (sad thing was I didn't
even get to 55kmh in the sprint either).

So just hang in there (literally). Having a mate look after you for the
first race or so tends to help.

Cheers
Gemma

Gemma_k wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

first race (or couple of races). The skills in crits are: being able to
concentrate for the 35mins (or however long the race is) being able to
corner, being able to hold a wheel, and knowing your weaknesses so you can
try to be at the front of the bunch rather than the back when your weakness
will get exposed. The crits that most people start with here in Adelaide

<snip>

Oooh here's one you missed - being able to indentify the people who
can't hold a line and can't hold a wheel, and stay well in front of
them!

Tam *a few close calls on Saturday, and next time watch me take down
those hit girls*

Tamyka Bell said:

Gemma_k wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

first race (or couple of races). The skills in crits are: being able to
concentrate for the 35mins (or however long the race is) being able to
corner, being able to hold a wheel, and knowing your weaknesses so you can
try to be at the front of the bunch rather than the back when your weakness
will get exposed. The crits that most people start with here in Adelaide

<snip>

Oooh here's one you missed - being able to indentify the people who
can't hold a line and can't hold a wheel, and stay well in front of
them!

Tam *a few close calls on Saturday, and next time watch me take down
those hit girls*

Indentify? geez that's a bit violent isn't it? 🙂

adam85 said:

Tamyka Bell said:

Gemma_k wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

first race (or couple of races). The skills in crits are: being

able to

Quoted message said:

concentrate for the 35mins (or however long the race is) being able

to

Quoted message said:

corner, being able to hold a wheel, and knowing your weaknesses so

you can

Quoted message said:

try to be at the front of the bunch rather than the back when your

weakness

Quoted message said:

will get exposed. The crits that most people start with here in

Adelaide
<snip>

Oooh here's one you missed - being able to indentify the people who
can't hold a line and can't hold a wheel, and stay well in front of
them!

Tam *a few close calls on Saturday, and next time watch me take down
those hit girls*

Indentify? geez that's a bit violent isn't it? 🙂

--
adam85

It was a typo, but in hindsight seems more appropriate than what I
intended to write.

Tam

adam85 said:

Tamyka Bell said:

Gemma_k wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

first race (or couple of races). The skills in crits are: being

able to

Quoted message said:

concentrate for the 35mins (or however long the race is) being able

to

Quoted message said:

corner, being able to hold a wheel, and knowing your weaknesses so

you can

Quoted message said:

try to be at the front of the bunch rather than the back when your

weakness

Quoted message said:

will get exposed. The crits that most people start with here in

Adelaide
<snip>

Oooh here's one you missed - being able to indentify the people who
can't hold a line and can't hold a wheel, and stay well in front of
them!

Tam *a few close calls on Saturday, and next time watch me take down
those hit girls*

Indentify? geez that's a bit violent isn't it? 🙂

--
adam85

It was a typo, but in hindsight seems more appropriate than what I
intended to write.

Tam

D wrote:

I think you should concentrate on doing as many kms as possible.

Agreed.

To ride effectively in C-grade you need to be doing 200-300 kms per
week at 33-35km/h.

Holy smoke!!!!!!!! The amount of k's I agree with, but 33-35km/h.... I'll NEVER be able to achieve that!!!

LotteBum

P.S. I think you should apologise. I'm going to spend the afternoon crying under my desk.

D said:

I think you should concentrate on doing as many kms as possible.

Bunk.

Quoted message said:

To ride effectively in C-grade you need to be doing 200-300 kms per
week at 33-35km/h.

Not necessarily, that's one way, but by no means the only
way, and if all you're doing is E1/E2 work, you won't have the
top end to deal with surges, contest sprints etc.

LotteBum said:

D wrote:

I think you should concentrate on doing as many kms as possible.

Agreed.

To ride effectively in C-grade you need to be doing 200-300 kms per
week at 33-35km/h.

Holy smoke!!!!!!!! The amount of k's I agree with, but 33-35km/h....
I'll NEVER be able to achieve that!!!

LotteBum

P.S. I think you should apologise. I'm going to spend the afternoon
crying under my desk.

--
LotteBum

One of the coaches out at Balmoral told me I should be doing about 300km
per week of basework. I laughed... yeah dude, where do I fit that in
around finishing my PhD and working two jobs? He started to go on about
"an athlete of [my] level... " at which point I corrected him that I'm a
cyclist, not an athlete, and it's my car-replacement... I managed 237km
the other week... but to get up to 300, I'd have to give up sleep
altogether.

Meanwhile, I found a solution to that average speed, just sit on
AB/Wayne/Ken/Gilly's wheel.

Tam

PS whose desk are you under?