Dropped like a turd! Need advice

jjjtttggg said:

Rode in a 36 mile RR this weekend: 3 times round a 12 mile course that climbs about 1000 ft in the middle 4 miles with two section on the climb of 300 yds or so at ~9%. I rode with (OK, started with) an all ages Cat 5 group. (I'm 40 years old, riding about 2 and half years. This was my third race.) I hung with them just fine until we reached the climb. In fact, I had no trouble going with a lead group of twelve riders or so who suddenly jumped off the front after about 3 miles, we opened up maybe 100 yds by the time we reached the bottom of the climb, which begins with one of the two steep sections. I clung to the back of that group for maybe a mile before falling off, and then here came the rest and I was done. Hung briefly with a line a 6 guys or so but 2 fell off behind me and the I lost the other 3. By the time we got to the top, there were a few other stragglers still behind me, but the pack was round the bend, never to be seen by me again. It was a good training ride from there.

I am really pretty disappointed, because I have been training hard and really thought I could hang with the Cat 5 guys this time. (Did even worse in previous two races.) To top it all off I forgot in the excitement of the start to start my Polar, so I have no data on the race. I do have data on climbs in the three rides since:

Time Slope Miles Avg Spd Calc. Power
8:30 2.70% 2.1 14.2 259

17:35 2.90% 3.7 12.5 265
10:05 5.00% 1.5 9 221
7:15 2.60% 1.5 12 197

11:50 5.40% 1.9 9.4 248
6:30 8.70% 0.7 6.5 250

These were all fairly short rides (9 miles, 22 miles, and 12 miles). I was concentrating on pushing hard on the hills. Every one of these slopes took me over 180bpm which is about 95% of the highest number I've ever seen (190), and higher than that if I use age based formula for Max HR. I got the power numbers from the Kreutzotter website where you plug in height, weight, etc. along with slope and speed to get power output.

Here are my questions:
1 - What are the best training techniques to improve climbing power. (Yeah, I know, it's been asked a million times. I'll search the threads, so ignore this one if you want, but it is probably what I most need to know.)

2 - Given the above data, any ideas as to how close I am to being able to hang with the leaders at a Cat 5 level? It's hard to think of racing again only to get dropped right at the beginning.

Thanks,
J

I'd be very interested in answers to your questions. I've been riding for the last year and hill climbing is where I really suffer. I know some of the stuff I need to do to improve, I'm 43 so I carn't make the legs any younger but I could loose 30 of my 200lb weight, that would help. But training and technique tips would also be very welcome.

My course of action to rememdy the same problem years ago was to just stop entering hilly RRs and stick to Crits, Circuits and TT's. Back then i just didnt have the will to lose the extra 20-25 lbs to increase my power to weight ratio, even though i never did badly in Crits or Circuits at 185-190 lbs (6ft tall) and could do sub-hour 40k TT.

I think you'll get more quality advice if you share a few more details about your recent training regimen, such as: (1) your weekly mileage or time on your bike; (2) your mix of training time by zone/level and whose training zone schema it is based on; (3) any weekly group riding and the average pace of the group. Your fundamental problem appears to be a lack of sustainable power. This would explain why you don't get dropped until you get to the climbs (you can draft the lead group with your present sustainable power) where the drafting benefit largely disappears and power increases. So, you go into the red zone (non-sustainable power output) and it's only a matter of time before you can't maintain the pace. But, you're not going to overcome a lack of sustainable power by simply improving your climbing technique. You need to increase your sustainable power, period. To get help on doing that, it would be helpful (at least to me) if you could post your present training regimen and test data (e.g., max power at 1, 5, 20 minutes). I realize you don't have a PM, so this latter question is probably academic, but it would be helpful.

I find that tactics and psychology are important in these cases. Although I don't compete I have had opportunities to butt horns with other riders in the hills and learned a few things.
My main downfall is if I panic. There I am riding uphill and I can sense the guy behind me hanging on my wheel. Therefore, I have a tendency to overkill and overcompensate or psyche myself out. I don't do that anymore. What you need to do is keep at your own pace and don't blow yourself out. And believe me, I've blown big time in the past - just fell to bits.
To give an example: Now if there's a guy hanging on my wheel on a climb I'll try and streamline my position, get my rhythm perfect as possible and breathe steadily. If the guy comes past, so be it. Remember the guy behind you is hurting just as much and if he does pass, it's easier for you to then ride his wheel and let him work instead. So, keep cool and regulate your pace.
Second advice, You need to push yourself harder in the hills and time yourself. You fell apart because of the pace so you need to adapt to that level. Get someone to pace you on a scooter or use a watch and keep records of your gears. Are you faster spinning or pushing a bigger cog?
Two weeks ago I dropped a group of riders on a climb and I weight close to 200 pounds. I would say it was down to rhythm and pacing in part. It took me some 15 minutes to shake the riders off and had I tried to outsprint them I'd have been cooked. I'd have fallen apart.

jjjtttggg said:

Rode in a 36 mile RR this weekend: 3 times round a 12 mile course that climbs about 1000 ft in the middle 4 miles with two section on the climb of 300 yds or so at ~9%. I rode with (OK, started with) an all ages Cat 5 group. (I'm 40 years old, riding about 2 and half years. This was my third race.) I hung with them just fine until we reached the climb. In fact, I had no trouble going with a lead group of twelve riders or so who suddenly jumped off the front after about 3 miles, we opened up maybe 100 yds by the time we reached the bottom of the climb, which begins with one of the two steep sections. I clung to the back of that group for maybe a mile before falling off, and then here came the rest and I was done. Hung briefly with a line a 6 guys or so but 2 fell off behind me and the I lost the other 3. By the time we got to the top, there were a few other stragglers still behind me, but the pack was round the bend, never to be seen by me again. It was a good training ride from there.

I am really pretty disappointed, because I have been training hard and really thought I could hang with the Cat 5 guys this time. (Did even worse in previous two races.) To top it all off I forgot in the excitement of the start to start my Polar, so I have no data on the race. I do have data on climbs in the three rides since:

Time Slope Miles Avg Spd Calc. Power
8:30 2.70% 2.1 14.2 259

17:35 2.90% 3.7 12.5 265
10:05 5.00% 1.5 9 221
7:15 2.60% 1.5 12 197

11:50 5.40% 1.9 9.4 248
6:30 8.70% 0.7 6.5 250

These were all fairly short rides (9 miles, 22 miles, and 12 miles). I was concentrating on pushing hard on the hills. Every one of these slopes took me over 180bpm which is about 95% of the highest number I've ever seen (190), and higher than that if I use age based formula for Max HR. I got the power numbers from the Kreutzotter website where you plug in height, weight, etc. along with slope and speed to get power output.

Here are my questions:
1 - What are the best training techniques to improve climbing power. (Yeah, I know, it's been asked a million times. I'll search the threads, so ignore this one if you want, but it is probably what I most need to know.)

2 - Given the above data, any ideas as to how close I am to being able to hang with the leaders at a Cat 5 level? It's hard to think of racing again only to get dropped right at the beginning.

Thanks,
J

FatguyRacer said:

My course of action to rememdy the same problem years ago was to just stop entering hilly RRs and stick to Crits, Circuits and TT's. Back then i just didnt have the will to lose the extra 20-25 lbs to increase my power to weight ratio, even though i never did badly in Crits or Circuits at 185-190 lbs (6ft tall) and could do sub-hour 40k TT.

I'm training with the ultimate goal of riding across the USA so I don't have the luxury of avoiding the hills. I have noticed that "attacking" a hill really helps me and keeping a high cadence is vital to me successfully cresting a hill, but I'm worried about keeping it up for long hill climbs. Right now I'm doing 30 miles 3 times a week with a 50 to 60 mile ride at the weekend with some hill climbs. I'm working up to more rides and longer distances increasing by 5% at a time. My next goal is 75 miles and then a century. However, I'm really worried about my hill climbing ability as if I'm to cross the USA I'll have to go over some high passes in the Cascades and Rockies. As I loose some weight I'll try doing Mt Wachusetts (I'm in MA), but it seems a long way off.

nun said:

I'm training with the ultimate goal of riding across the USA so I don't have the luxury of avoiding the hills. I have noticed that "attacking" a hill really helps me and keeping a high cadence is vital to me successfully cresting a hill, but I'm worried about keeping it up for long hill climbs. Right now I'm doing 30 miles 3 times a week with a 50 to 60 mile ride at the weekend with some hill climbs. I'm working up to more rides and longer distances increasing by 5% at a time. My next goal is 75 miles and then a century. However, I'm really worried about my hill climbing ability as if I'm to cross the USA I'll have to go over some high passes in the Cascades and Rockies. As I loose some weight I'll try doing Mt Wachusetts (I'm in MA), but it seems a long way off.

Since my goal is to race again next year, i decided that nothing less than being in better shape than before will do. I plan to get a Powertap this winter and become the climber i never was. I also plan to get to a more respectable 175lbs too. Its always a sore spot for me and coping out should not have been the solution.

nun said:

I'm training with the ultimate goal of riding across the USA so I don't have the luxury of avoiding the hills. I have noticed that "attacking" a hill really helps me and keeping a high cadence is vital to me successfully cresting a hill, but I'm worried about keeping it up for long hill climbs. Right now I'm doing 30 miles 3 times a week with a 50 to 60 mile ride at the weekend with some hill climbs. I'm working up to more rides and longer distances increasing by 5% at a time. My next goal is 75 miles and then a century. However, I'm really worried about my hill climbing ability as if I'm to cross the USA I'll have to go over some high passes in the Cascades and Rockies. As I loose some weight I'll try doing Mt Wachusetts (I'm in MA), but it seems a long way off.

Climbing isn't the problem, climbing at a power output that you can't sustain is the problem. I don't know what power you use on the flat, but assuming it's 150w or better you can climb with that power. You just can't climb fast with that power. But, who says you need to climb fast? Find a set of gears that allow you to spin your desired cadence at various grades up to and including what you'll encounter on your ride(s) and climb comfortably at the same power output you use on the flat. Granted, when the grade gets steep the bike stalls out with less than ~200w, but you can usually get off the saddle and apply extra power for a short duration.

Are you at your optimal race weight now? If not, losing weight would be the quickest way to improve your VO2 max and power-to-weight ratio. If you're on the line with guys 20 years younger and 20 years lighter, the outcome isn't going to be tough to figure out....unless you're a genetically-gifted.

That, plus just keep racing. Three races is nothing. At your age, I was dropped in a weekly crit series for a whole season. The second season was better. But when I found myself in the thick of the action, it got too scary for this old guy.

RapDaddyo said:

Climbing isn't the problem, climbing at a power output that you can't sustain is the problem. I don't know what power you use on the flat, but assuming it's 150w or better you can climb with that power. You just can't climb fast with that power. But, who says you need to climb fast? Find a set of gears that allow you to spin your desired cadence at various grades up to and including what you'll encounter on your ride(s) and climb comfortably at the same power output you use on the flat. Granted, when the grade gets steep the bike stalls out with less than ~200w, but you can usually get off the saddle and apply extra power for a short duration.

I have a touring triple at the front, 46-36-26, and a 12-28 cassette, so I have plenty of suitable gears. When I'm out without a load I try to stay on the 36 up hills though. I think a lot of the hill climbing thing is psychological as a new hill always seemes tougher that one I've been up before. Also I think patience is very useful in climbing, and I need to work on that and just crank up the things at 6 to 8 mph.

RapDaddyo said:

I think you'll get more quality advice if you share a few more details about your recent training regimen, such as: (1) your weekly mileage or time on your bike; (2) your mix of training time by zone/level and whose training zone schema it is based on; (3) any weekly group riding and the average pace of the group. Your fundamental problem appears to be a lack of sustainable power. This would explain why you don't get dropped until you get to the climbs (you can draft the lead group with your present sustainable power) where the drafting benefit largely disappears and power increases. So, you go into the red zone (non-sustainable power output) and it's only a matter of time before you can't maintain the pace. But, you're not going to overcome a lack of sustainable power by simply improving your climbing technique. You need to increase your sustainable power, period. To get help on doing that, it would be helpful (at least to me) if you could post your present training regimen and test data (e.g., max power at 1, 5, 20 minutes). I realize you don't have a PM, so this latter question is probably academic, but it would be helpful.

I definitely agree with the sustainable power idea. Also could loose some weight as others have suggested. I'm 5'10", 176lbs. I could probably drop 10lbs without being too scrawny for my frame (in my wife's eyes that is!)

As for my training. I figure my max hr is 190. I previously was using 184 from a formula based on age, but in the first race this season, as I was watching the pack drift away up a 400ft by 0.8 mile rise, my HRM read 190. Never seen it higher than that.

I'm kinda using my own scheme of training ranges based on reading and talking to people. I did some 1 hour TT experiments earlier this year and estimated LT at 165bpm, but then in the first race this year, I averaged 174 for 2 hours and 20 minutes, with very little time below 170. Clearly the 165 was low. I was quite dead at the end of the race and sore as hell the next day, so I have set my LT range at 170-175. I've done some experiments and determined that I can ride for up to 3 hours (never tried to go further) with virtually no aftereffects at about 145, so based on all of the above, I've defined the following ranges in my Polar software:

5-Dying 176 - ???
4-Threshold 170-175
3-Working It 150-169
2-Chillin' 135-149
1-Doggin' it ??? - 134

Since April I have averaged 3:32 minutes / week, including a dozen or so sessions on hotel exercise bikes, and one session of 6 trips up 15 stories of stairs in a Japanese hotel and taking the elevator down. Unfortunately, I travel a lot. In the last 6 weeks I've been riding a good bit more

In the same time I have averaged 46 miles per week (actual bike miles, no credit for the exercise bike rides). Average 4 rides per week. Actually, in the last 6 weeks, I'm up to 54 miles per week. I was a bit lower before that.

As for a training regimen, most days I just ride, but I've tried to work hills as intervals. I push up a hill 'til my HR gets into my "Threshold" zone and hold it there to the top. In my area, most hills take only 5-8 minutes. There are a few longer ones that I ride often as listed in my original post.

The result of this approach in terms of % of time in zone has been (Last 6 weeks)

Dying 4%
Thresh 16%
Working 49%
Chillin' 22%
Doggin' 10%

Final note. I ride known routes almost exclusively and measure everything (Really wish I had a PM, so I could measure that too, but not enough dough right now). I keep a total of maybe 10 or 12 different loops around where I live in a crude rotation based on time available and what I feel like doing. I'll drop one now and then and add a new one, but that will then become a baseline for me. I am getting better. because my times on all of my loops have dropped steadily through the season. I feel like I need to do something more, though, to specifically train for those extended climbing situations so that I can hang with the group on the climb.

Sorry for such a long post, but hey, you asked😉

Thanks in advance for any further thoughts,
J

More sprints and hill intervals...

DannoXYZ said:

More sprints and hill intervals...

Thanks for the advice. I understand the hill intervals, but what's the logic of sprints, if you don't mind elaborating? I haven't been doing any sprints in my training, because I sort of thought that was for the contenders at the finish, which so far hasn't even been close to being me. Is there some other purpose to sprints in training?

Thanks again,
J

jjjtttggg said:

Blah , Blah, BlahJ

PS - I failed to answer your Q about group riding / speed. Actually, I've been doing all my training solo, so I can't speak to speed in group rides. Solo, flat, no wind, up AND back for a total of about 8 miles, I have averaged a little over 22mph. Most of my riding includes 2, sometimes 3 hills like those I mentioned in my original post with similar descents (always looping back to the beginning). On that type of terrain I typically average 16 - 18mph depending on the actual loop I ride.

jjjtttggg said:

.... I did some 1 hour TT experiments earlier this year and estimated LT at 165bpm, but then in the first race this year, I averaged 174 for 2 hours and 20 minutes, with very little time below 170. Clearly the 165 was low.

Be careful with this thinking. I reached the same conclusion earlier this year, after I did a 1hr time trial and found that I averaged 184bpm. Since 1HR TT is sometimes cited as a good approximation of LT, I upped my estimate of my own LT to 184 (from 180).

In retrospect, what had really happened in that TT was that I went out way too hard, blew up, and never really got my breathing/HR back under control. Further, I was very, very stimulated and nervous, ratcheting my HR up several more beats. So, the HR I was seeing wasn't reflective of effort; it was reflective of being blown up, and hopped up on caffeine, and excited to have a number pinned to my back. Towards the end of the time trial, my HR was darn near 190, but I was not putting out much power at all. Rejiggering my training to this bogusly high heart rate led to some mistakes, some slight "overtraining" (more like overreaching when I didn't mean to be), etc.

In general, since I've started lurking on these forums, I've become convinced that for relative newbies like myself, using heart rate as a measure of effort does more harm than good. It feels so scientific compared to RPE, but it lies to you, and it lies to you worst at the most important times, i.e., at the extremes of the effort spectrum. While I don't yet own a power meter, I've still started thinking about training in terms of power. When I want to answer the question, "how hard am I going?", I don't look at heart rate, or even how hard I'm breathing, whether I'm sweating, etc. I just think about the tension on the chain. Could I keep the current tension on the chain up for 1 hour? Then I'm at threshold. For 30 seconds? Then I'm sprinting. Etc.

So, let me net this out. You are 5’10”, 176lbs. You train ~3.5 hrs/wk. You train based on your own schema, assuming a MHR of 190bpm and you have actually seen 190bpm on your HRM at the top of a 400’ climb. You estimate your LT at 170-175bpm because you have averaged 174 for 2:20. Your HR training zones (%s are based on your estimate of 190MHR) are:
1: <134 (<70%)
2: 135-149 (71%-78%)
3: 150-169 (79%-89%)
4: 170-175 (90%-92%)
5: 176+ (93%+)

You spend about half your training time in zone 3 and a total of ~20% in zones 4-5. So, you’re spending about 70% of your training time at 79%MHR or higher. Your training rides are mostly solo, on a variety of routes and most routes include hills. You average 16-22mph, depending on how hilly the route. Is that about it?

So, here are my comments and the logic behind each. First, I do think you could afford to lose some weight. By contrast, I am 6’3/4” and 175lbs. And I consider myself 10lbs over my race weight target. Extra weight will especially affect your performance on climbs. When I’m climbing is when I’m really envious of those little 110lb thoroughbred jockeys. Second, I think 3.5 hrs/wk on your bike is very little time and must be used very effectively to make progress. By contrast, I am on my bike 14-20 hrs/wk. Third, I think your basic problem is a lack of sustainable power (LT power, if you like; or 1hr power). That’s why you’re getting dropped. Whatever your sustainable power is, when you ride above that level the clock is running and eventually you will be forced to slow down. So, I think your primary training objective should be to increase your sustainable power. Fourth, I have no idea why you felt the need to invent your own training zone schema. By contrast, I use Andy Coggan’s schema peakscoachinggroup.compowertrainingchapter.pdfOpen ↗. [I use Andy’s schema for these reasons: (1) I think Andy’s a really smart guy, a scientist, a true guru in this field and a competitive cyclist; (2) his schema is power-based but cross-referenced to HR and RPE; (3) his schema is simple; (4) his schema is based on an easily repeated benchmark (40K MP), and shorter duration MPs (e.g., 20min or 5min) can be used with appropriate adjustment; so, I can easily track and measure my progress, every week if I want; (5) his schema is seamlessly incorporated in the Cycling Peaks software, so I can track my cumulative time in each training zone on one simple chart; and (6) I have made good progress toward my training goals using Andy’s schema (I estimate my LT power has gone from ~100w in March to ~275w presently). Now, for the devotees of another training zone schema, let me make it clear that I am not saying Andy’s schema is better than the others. I have never even looked at Friel’s or Carmichael’s. I have looked at Ric’s, but I sort of cringe at the idea of doing that MAP test regularly (although I have promised myself that one day when I feel particularly masochistic I will do the MAP test at least once and cross-check his zones with what I am using). Also, none of the others is seamlessly incorporated in my PM software (Cycling Peaks).] Now, before you get excited about extrapolating the progress I have made in a few short months to yourself, let me remind you that I am on my bike 14-20 hrs/wk. In the last 28 days, I have spent 3.25 hrs >300w, 2.7 hrs at 265w-300w and 4.7 hrs at 230w-265w. That’s over 10.5 hrs near or above my LT in the last 28 days. That’s about 75% of your entire time on your bike in 28 days. Fifth, you are using HR for both management of your intensity on rides and for measuring your progress. I think you would be better off to use power for both. Now, I know what you’re thinking -- that I failed to read the part about you not having a PM. Not true. I read that. Let me explain. Power can be imputed from bike speed on a course segment of known grade and wind. It’s tricky on the flat and virtually impossible on a downgrade, but very feasible for an upgrade. The ideal hill is one of ~5-6% grade of at least 3 miles, located within ~20mins of your house for warming up and cooling down before & after your high-intensity work. I do most of my intervals on just such a hill (see below). Initially, I was climbing this hill at ~6-8mph. Now, I average ~13-14mph and eventually I hope to average ~15-16mph. I recommend that you find such a hill to first get a good benchmark of your present sustainable power and secondly for training and repeated measurement of your progress (based on power, derived from average speed). Personally, I don’t think you spend enough hours on your bike to worry much about riding at recovery pace other than warming up & cooling down on your way to/from your training hill. I’d suggest alternating your intervals between a speed you can maintain all the way to the top and a higher speed that you can only maintain about halfway up. The first would be in Zone 4 and the latter would be in Zone 5 or 6. This speed will gradually increase over time, giving you a much more precise way of tracking your progress than HR. My suggestion is to not worry about your HR, beyond noticing that your speed will increase over time at the same HR. This regimen will increase your sustainable power. Sorry for the long post, but you asked.

RapDaddyo said:

I have looked at Ric’s, but I sort of cringe at the idea of doing that MAP test regularly (although I have promised myself that one day when I feel particularly masochistic I will do the MAP test at least once and cross-check his zones with what I am using).

Seriously RD, a MAP test isn't that difficult - especially with all the training you do. An easy day or two before hand, a good warm up, test and then cool down. i tested last week, and was fine when i did a 5hr ride the following day. [edit]. it's only the last minute or two that really hurts.

You don't need to test too frequently, about once every 8 weeks at most, or once a quarter. Add in other tests, and regular training and that's fine.

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

Seriously RD, a MAP test isn't that difficult - especially with all the training you do. An easy day or two before hand, a good warm up, test and then cool down. i tested last week, and was fine when i did a 5hr ride the following day.

You don't need to test too frequently, about once every 8 weeks at most, or once a quarter. Add in other tests, and regular training and that's fine.

ric

Actually, I do plan to do one soon. I have been a little compromised in my ability to push >200w seated for about 3 months due to my sore glutes, but that seems to be abating (e.g., I have done several efforts of 15-20 minutes at 275w-325w in the last week). I've got a century this Saturday (my first ever supported century, believe it or not -- lots of 100+ mile training rides and a few 100+ mile races, but never a century). If all goes well, I'm thinking about doing a MAP test next week. I am actually very curious to see how your MAP-based zones compare with my present zones.

[b]"Thanks for the advice. I understand the hill intervals, but what's the logic of sprints, if you don't mind elaborating? I haven't been doing any sprints in my training, because I sort of thought that was for the contenders at the finish, which so far hasn't even been close to being me. Is there some other purpose to sprints in training?"[/b]

Basically you've been caught in no-mans-land with your training doing intermediate workouts. You need more intensity and more distance. Do at least one ride a week of 3-4 hours @ 65-75%

RapDaddyo's done the part on intervals and in case you didn't get it, you need to do more intensity workouts above your LT. Going by HR's fine, but not as precise as monitoring power to gauge effort; there's always a time-delay effect with HR. If you want to use HR, practice on correlating a certain amount of effort, say... 10mph up a 6% grade or 15mph up a 4% grade, etc. something that you can hold steady at a rate that's higher than your LT. You want to hold a pace that'll gradually increase your HR at a steady clip until you hit 100% max-HR by the end of the interval. Then recover to 50-60% and repeat. Intervals comes in a variety of kinds, intense pyramid sets of 1-2-3-5-3-2-1 or longer aerobic ones of 15-20-25 minutes. Be sure to practice your timing and effort to steadily increase your HR evenly to hit max-HR by the end.

Sprints serve a similar purpose purely on your muscular system as opposed to a cardio/aerobic workout like intervals. It's integral in raising your LT as well through efficiency and strength in your muscles. Making a 90-95% effort on those hills kils you because your muscles are close to their maximum exertion force and are into the lactate region, which you end up paying for aerobically shortly. Sprints develop muscle strength and power. By increasing your maximum pushing-strength on the pedals and resultant power-output, you'll be at a lower-percentage of your max going up that hill at the same speed the next time. If you can only exert 150lbs maximum force on your pedals now for 265watts, sprints will help you increase our strength to push 200lbs and get 340watts. Then the next time you go up those hills chasing those guys, you can put out the same power as before for the same speed, but you'll only be exerting yourself at 75%. That means if you push to 90% like before, you'll be going even faster. 🙂

Believe me, if you can't keep up with them on the hills, which are gradual accelerations, there's no way you're gonna be in contention for the finish as it'll be way more strenuous and requires way more power applied more quicly, like going from 300watts to 1000watts+ instantly and then holding it for a minute!!! :eek:

RapDaddyo... all very good answers, but I fear we may be jumping the gun here. We are dealing with a rider who is putting in 3-4hrs on the bike and trying to do 35+ mile RR. I think before we consider training regiments, zone training, HR training, PM training etc... we need to take care of the bottom line. If you want to be a competitive cyclist you need to put in hours on the bike. I am a competitive crit racer consistently finishing high and I too am putting in 12-16 hours (250-300 miles) on the bike each week. I don't care what kind of training I was doing, it wouldn't help much at all if I wasn't spending 3 hours on my bike 5 days a week.

IMHO I would suggest trying to put more base miles down... once you are starting to get the numbers up, then jump on all the great advice given here.