start-line blood tests?

Quoted message said:

This whloe issue of start-line blood tests. Here's my question, if
there is such widespread practice of transfusing blood just before the
race begins, wouldn't the riders all be suffering from track-marks and
seriously damaged veins? Blood vessels are not THAT resilient.

What does "whloe" mean?

Thanks,

Magilla

MagillaGorilla said:

Quoted message said:

What does "whloe" mean?
Thanks,

Wyh do yuo aks?

Quoted message said:

This whloe issue of start-line blood tests. Here's my question, if
there is such widespread practice of transfusing blood just before the
race begins, wouldn't the riders all be suffering from track-marks and
seriously damaged veins? Blood vessels are not THAT resilient.

Well, there are a lot of veins to look at. If you get a good
phlebotomist, there won't be much of a mark.

Steve

Quoted message said:

Steve Bornfeld said:

Quoted message said:

This whloe issue of start-line blood tests. Here's my question, if
there is such widespread practice of transfusing blood just before the
race begins, wouldn't the riders all be suffering from track-marks and
seriously damaged veins? Blood vessels are not THAT resilient.

Well, there are a lot of veins to look at. If you get a good
phlebotomist, there won't be much of a mark.

Steve

Do you know how large a gauge needle is needed to quickly and safely
transfuse packed cells?

18 gauge is suggested. Those are not small, and would show a mark for about
a day.

-jet

Jet said:

Steve Bornfeld said:

Quoted message said:

This whloe issue of start-line blood tests. Here's my question, if
there is such widespread practice of transfusing blood just before the
race begins, wouldn't the riders all be suffering from track-marks and
seriously damaged veins? Blood vessels are not THAT resilient.

Well, there are a lot of veins to look at. If you get a good
phlebotomist, there won't be much of a mark.

Steve

Do you know how large a gauge needle is needed to quickly and safely
transfuse packed cells?

18 gauge is suggested. Those are not small, and would show a mark for about
a day.

-jet

Good point. I'm pretty clueless about this. I assumed the packed
cells were reconstituted before transfusing.
In any case, a bum of a phlebotomist will leave a mark with a 30 ga.
needle (I generally use a 27 ga. at work; I'm guessing even routine IV
lines are running on considerably larger needles.
Still, who's gonna check all those perineal veins?

Steve

Quoted message said:

Steve Bornfeld said:

Jet said:

Steve Bornfeld said:

[email hidden] wrote:

> This whloe issue of start-line blood tests. Here's my question, if
> there is such widespread practice of transfusing blood just before the
> race begins, wouldn't the riders all be suffering from track-marks and
> seriously damaged veins? Blood vessels are not THAT resilient.

Well, there are a lot of veins to look at. If you get a good
phlebotomist, there won't be much of a mark.

Steve

Do you know how large a gauge needle is needed to quickly and safely
transfuse packed cells?

18 gauge is suggested. Those are not small, and would show a mark for
about
a day.

-jet

Good point. I'm pretty clueless about this. I assumed the packed
cells were reconstituted before transfusing.
In any case, a bum of a phlebotomist will leave a mark with a 30 ga.
needle (I generally use a 27 ga. at work; I'm guessing even routine IV
lines are running on considerably larger needles.
Still, who's gonna check all those perineal veins?

Steve

27 ga. needles? What do you do with that - amniocentisis?

Magilla

MagillaGorilla said:

Quoted message said:

Good point. I'm pretty clueless about this. I assumed the packed
cells were reconstituted before transfusing.
In any case, a bum of a phlebotomist will leave a mark with a 30
ga. needle (I generally use a 27 ga. at work; I'm guessing even
routine IV lines are running on considerably larger needles.
Still, who's gonna check all those perineal veins?

Steve

27 ga. needles? What do you do with that - amniocentisis?

Magilla

Holy smoke--have you ever seen an amnio needle? The freakin' thing
looks like a harpoon. My wife didn't seem to mind...much.
I sometimes use a 30 ga. In school, they had us using 25 ga all the
time--so we could aspirate (we don't want to inject into an artery or
vein). We were told that you couldn't aspirate effectively with a
needle smaller than 25 ga. This was nonsense--I can aspirate blood very
easily with a 27. But packed cells are something else again. I don't
doubt what jet said about needing an 18. But when I watched my wife's
anmio, the needle looked like it might be negative numbers.

Steve

Steve Bornfeld said:

Quoted message said:

Do you know how large a gauge needle is needed to quickly and safely
transfuse packed cells?

18 gauge is suggested. Those are not small, and would show a mark for about
a day.

-jet

Good point. I'm pretty clueless about this. I assumed the packed
cells were reconstituted before transfusing.
In any case, a bum of a phlebotomist will leave a mark with a 30 ga.
needle (I generally use a 27 ga. at work; I'm guessing even routine IV
lines are running on considerably larger needles.
Still, who's gonna check all those perineal veins?

Steve

Huh? The extremely thin needle that is used for insulin injections is a 27
(sometimes a 31)....or are you talking about the needle for injecting
novocaine.

(If you're putting in IV solutions, like sodium brevital with a needle that
small it would take you all day, heh.)

Just to remind you, since blood is a solid suspended in a liquid, the gauge
has to be pretty large so as not to hemolyze the cells - turbulence and
soforth complicates it. You -might- get away with a 20 gauge for whole
blood infused slowly.

Regular IV solutions could be given though any size needle if you're
talking crystalloid, like Sodium Chloride solution, or D5W. They usually
use a 20, or 22. For infants, sometimes they use a scalp vein, even as
small as 23 gauge for blood, but it's infused diluted and very slowly.

But yeah, it should be pretty easy to find a vein on those thin-skinned
lycra-wearers, eh? But you said 'perineal veins'. Are you sure about that?

-jet

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:47:17 -0400, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Good point. I'm pretty clueless about this. I assumed the packed
cells were reconstituted before transfusing.
In any case, a bum of a phlebotomist will leave a mark with a 30 ga.
needle (I generally use a 27 ga. at work; I'm guessing even routine IV
lines are running on considerably larger needles.
Still, who's gonna check all those perineal veins?

Steve

27 ga. needles? What do you do with that - amniocentisis?

Magilla

Larger values mean smaller diameter. 16 gauge needle is quite large, and is
used for blood donation.

27gauge needle is that used for insulin injections - it's tiny.

The gauge is not related to the 'length'.

-jet

Quoted message said:

This whloe issue of start-line blood tests. Here's my question, if
there is such widespread practice of transfusing blood just before the
race begins, wouldn't the riders all be suffering from track-marks and
seriously damaged veins? Blood vessels are not THAT resilient.

Paging Emma O'Reilly....

Jet said:

Steve Bornfeld said:

Quoted message said:

Do you know how large a gauge needle is needed to quickly and safely
transfuse packed cells?

18 gauge is suggested. Those are not small, and would show a mark for about
a day.

-jet

Good point. I'm pretty clueless about this. I assumed the packed
cells were reconstituted before transfusing.
In any case, a bum of a phlebotomist will leave a mark with a 30 ga.
needle (I generally use a 27 ga. at work; I'm guessing even routine IV
lines are running on considerably larger needles.
Still, who's gonna check all those perineal veins?

Steve

Huh? The extremely thin needle that is used for insulin injections is a 27
(sometimes a 31)....or are you talking about the needle for injecting
novocaine.

(If you're putting in IV solutions, like sodium brevital with a needle that
small it would take you all day, heh.)

Just to remind you, since blood is a solid suspended in a liquid, the gauge
has to be pretty large so as not to hemolyze the cells - turbulence and
soforth complicates it. You -might- get away with a 20 gauge for whole
blood infused slowly.

Regular IV solutions could be given though any size needle if you're
talking crystalloid, like Sodium Chloride solution, or D5W. They usually
use a 20, or 22. For infants, sometimes they use a scalp vein, even as
small as 23 gauge for blood, but it's infused diluted and very slowly.

But yeah, it should be pretty easy to find a vein on those thin-skinned
lycra-wearers, eh? But you said 'perineal veins'. Are you sure about that?

-jet

I exaggerate to clarify. Just wondering where you'd look for a vein if
you didn't want anyone to find the veinipuncture.

Steve

Quoted message said:

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Jet said:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:47:17 -0400, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Good point. I'm pretty clueless about this. I assumed the packed
cells were reconstituted before transfusing.
In any case, a bum of a phlebotomist will leave a mark with a 30 ga.
needle (I generally use a 27 ga. at work; I'm guessing even routine IV
lines are running on considerably larger needles.
Still, who's gonna check all those perineal veins?

Steve

27 ga. needles? What do you do with that - amniocentisis?

Magilla

Larger values mean smaller diameter. 16 gauge needle is quite large, and is
used for blood donation.

27gauge needle is that used for insulin injections - it's tiny.

The gauge is not related to the 'length'.

-jet

I'm aware of that. I think I've seen insulin syringes, and the needles
are very fine bore--maybe 30 ga. We use 30 ga for infiltration
anesthesia, but 27 ga for our other injections. In school we used 25
ga. They say that since these are single-use needles and therefore
presumably very sharp it really doesn't make it more painful to use a
larger bore needle.

Steve

Quoted message said:

--
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Arial;}}
{\*\generator Msftedit 5.41.15.1507;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\f0\fs20 Remove
"nospam" to reply\par
}

Jet said:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:47:17 -0400, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Good point. I'm pretty clueless about this. I assumed the packed
cells were reconstituted before transfusing.
In any case, a bum of a phlebotomist will leave a mark with a 30 ga.
needle (I generally use a 27 ga. at work; I'm guessing even routine IV
lines are running on considerably larger needles.
Still, who's gonna check all those perineal veins?

Steve

27 ga. needles? What do you do with that - amniocentisis?

Magilla

Larger values mean smaller diameter. 16 gauge needle is quite large, and is
used for blood donation.

27gauge needle is that used for insulin injections - it's tiny.

The gauge is not related to the 'length'.

-jet

Nobody uses 16 gauge needles, and diabetics use 25g, not 27. Let me
know if you need any further assistance.

Thanks,

Magilla

Steven Bornfeld said:

I exaggerate to clarify. Just wondering where you'd look for a vein if
you didn't want anyone to find the veinipuncture.

Steve

There's be two criterions. The vein would have to support transfusion of
blood (not collapse when you tried to stick it), and be a decent diameter.
I'd choose the vein on the basis of it being able to repeatedly support
transfusion over visibility of the venipuncture.

For one thing, is it not typical that racer get saline and other legal
products? If so, why cover it up.

I would probably be aware of not having the public easily be able to
identify vp scars, nor have band aids on both arms at race time, etc. So
I'd use a concealer, or long sleeves. I wouldn't go to transfusing in the
legs. Too much danger of phlebitis, blood clot formation, istm. Back of the
hand would be an option, but those are harder to stick. Also to get the
vein up, you'd have to use a place that would allow a tourniquet.

After all, we're not talking heroin users here, injecting between the toes,
man. ;-)

-jet

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:31:21 -0400, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Jet said:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:47:17 -0400, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

> Good point. I'm pretty clueless about this. I assumed the packed
>cells were reconstituted before transfusing.
> In any case, a bum of a phlebotomist will leave a mark with a 30 ga.
>needle (I generally use a 27 ga. at work; I'm guessing even routine IV
>lines are running on considerably larger needles.
> Still, who's gonna check all those perineal veins?
>
>Steve
>

27 ga. needles? What do you do with that - amniocentisis?

Magilla

Larger values mean smaller diameter. 16 gauge needle is quite large, and is
used for blood donation.

27gauge needle is that used for insulin injections - it's tiny.

The gauge is not related to the 'length'.

-jet

Nobody uses 16 gauge needles,

Ever donated blood? That's a 16 ga.

Quoted message said:

and diabetics use 25g, not 27.

It varies. Do a websearch.

http://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/article.cfm?AID=327&SID=2&SK=9AAD&SSL=n&TID=42&page=3

"Injecting Insulin 101
by Eve Gehling, M.Ed., R.D., C.D.E.
Published in the September/October 2000 issue.
Needle gauges range between 27 and 31. The higher the gauge, the thinner
the needle. Pick a needle gauge that feels most comfortable for you."

HTH.

Quoted message said:

Let me know if you need any further assistance.

Fire your research staff?

-jet

Quoted message said:

Thanks,

Magilla

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steven Bornfeld said:

Jet said:

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:47:17 -0400, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

27 ga. needles? What do you do with that - amniocentisis?

Magilla

Larger values mean smaller diameter. 16 gauge needle is quite large, and is
used for blood donation.

27gauge needle is that used for insulin injections - it's tiny.

The gauge is not related to the 'length'.

-jet

I'm aware of that. I think I've seen insulin syringes, and the needles
are very fine bore--maybe 30 ga. We use 30 ga for infiltration
anesthesia, but 27 ga for our other injections. In school we used 25
ga. They say that since these are single-use needles and therefore
presumably very sharp it really doesn't make it more painful to use a
larger bore needle.

Just as a data point, I checked my cat's insulin needles. 28 ga.

Yes, I have a diabetic cat. What I really want to know is why don't more
pros use infirm pets as excuses? Surely David Millar could have scared
up an anemic dog or something....

I'm kidding! Well, no, my cat really is diabetic.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos