alternatives to squat and dead-lift

In article <1129649815.259923@athnrd02>, "BobPit" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

According to Stuart McRobert, (Weight-Training Technique, Second Edition),
Trap bar dead lift is superior to straight bar dead lift. Now, my gym does
not have a Trap bar. But I am thinking to use the bench machine. I can use
all the weights of the machine, plus I can add 80-120 kgrs on the handles.
I use it for shoulder shrug anyway.

Question 1: Can I use the bench machine to do a better version of the dead
lift?

According to the same author, the Trap bar dead lift is an excelent
alternative of the squat. Whereas he believes that the squat done with the
help of a smith machine, is dangerous to the knees or back (depending on
posture).

Question 2: According to you, is it safe to use the Smith machine for the
squat? Is Stuart McRobert exagerating or he is right?

Question 3: What if I use Trap bar dead lift and Stiff Leg dead lift? The
Trap bar dead lift mostly for the legs. The Stiff Leg dead lift will
strengthen even more the lower back and hamstrings.

1. The Smith machine poses risks for technique because it forces a
linear movement. Very few body movements are completely linear. On the
flip side - the weight will never get to far forward or back on the
Smith machine. There are times the Smith machine can be useful, but the
best solution is to learn to squat properly using free weights.

2. The trap bar deadlift is not superior to the straight bar deadlift -
it is simply different. You don't have to worry about losing the weight
forward - it is easier to keep the centre of gravity of the bar/person
system well within the base of support with the trap bar. OTOH, that
means you don't work the posterior chain as hard in stabilization.

So your question 1 - no the bench machine is not a better version of the
deadlift. The deadlift is an excellent exercise and a lot of the reason
is it prepares you to lift things in the real world where the weight is
out in front of you. The ROM of the bench machine is both fixed and
short - pretty much useless.

Question 2 - it can be safe to use the Smith machine, but why would you?
The stabilization of the free weight version is a huge benefit. The
smith machine can also cause problems in technique, but they can be
overcome.

Question 3 - this is where I just basically have to laugh. You want to
do away with the regular deadlift because the bar can go to the front of
your base of support and place large loads on the posterior chain. But
you then add an exercise which does exactly that - stiff legged
deadlifts.

I wouldn't. I'd squat and do deadlifts. My own take is that most people
who try to replace these exercises with 'more effective' versions are
actually looking for 'easier' versions. The squat and deadlift have been
mainstays of strength and mass development since the barbell was
invented for one simple reason.

They work. They work because they are hard and use a lot of motor units.
Quit looking for an easier alternative and get squattin' (and
deadlifting).

--
Keith

"BobPit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1129649815.259923@athnrd02...

Quoted message said:

According to Stuart McRobert, (Weight-Training Technique, Second
Edition), Trap bar dead lift is superior to straight bar dead lift.

I don't own nor have I read this book - for what purpose is the trap bar
deadlift better?

Quoted message said:

Now, my gym does not have a Trap bar. But I am thinking to use the
bench machine. I can use all the weights of the machine, plus I can
add 80-120 kgrs on the handles. I use it for shoulder shrug anyway.

Question 1: Can I use the bench machine to do a better version of the
dead lift?

According to the same author, the Trap bar dead lift is an excelent
alternative of the squat.

My take has always been that the trap bar DL, along with a two-dumbbell
DL, is somewhere between a SQ and a DL.. That's doesn't make it better
or worse, IMHO, just different.

Quoted message said:

Whereas he believes that the squat done with the help of a smith
machine, is dangerous to the knees or back (depending on posture).

Question 2: According to you, is it safe to use the Smith machine for
the squat?

No.

Quoted message said:

Is Stuart McRobert exagerating or he is right?

He's right.

Quoted message said:

Question 3: What if I use Trap bar dead lift and Stiff Leg dead lift?
The Trap bar dead lift mostly for the legs. The Stiff Leg dead lift
will strengthen even more the lower back and hamstrings.

What are you trying to accomplish? If your goal isn't very specific,
your training needn't be, either - lift heavy things and you'll get
stronger, and do it enough and eat enough and you'll get bigger. But if
you want to compete in a PL meet, then I'm not sure the trap bar DL is a
necessary part of your program.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Thanks
Bob

BobPit said:

According to Stuart McRobert, (Weight-Training Technique, Second Edition),
Trap bar dead lift is superior to straight bar dead lift. Now, my gym does
not have a Trap bar. But I am thinking to use the bench machine. I can use
all the weights of the machine, plus I can add 80-120 kgrs on the handles.
I use it for shoulder shrug anyway.

Question 1: Can I use the bench machine to do a better version of the dead
lift?

No.

Quoted message said:

According to the same author, the Trap bar dead lift is an excelent
alternative of the squat. Whereas he believes that the squat done with the
help of a smith machine, is dangerous to the knees or back (depending on
posture).

Me too.

Quoted message said:

Question 2: According to you, is it safe to use the Smith machine for the
squat? Is Stuart McRobert exagerating or he is right?

He's right.

It's safe to use the Smith machine for what it was designed for, probably; heavy
short-range partials.

Quoted message said:

Question 3: What if I use Trap bar dead lift and Stiff Leg dead lift? The
Trap bar dead lift mostly for the legs. The Stiff Leg dead lift will
strengthen even more the lower back and hamstrings.

Cool.

Hobbes said:

I wouldn't. I'd squat and do deadlifts. My own take is that most people
who try to replace these exercises with 'more effective' versions are
actually looking for 'easier' versions. The squat and deadlift have been
mainstays of strength and mass development since the barbell was
invented for one simple reason.

They work. They work because they are hard and use a lot of motor units.
Quit looking for an easier alternative and get squattin' (and
deadlifting).

As long as my squat goes up my deadlift seems to follow along.

Thing is, I can squat 2-3 times a week, no problem, but if I deadlift more than
once every other week or so it just kills me.

Should I bother?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Lascivious Mink said:

Hobbes said:

I wouldn't. I'd squat and do deadlifts. My own take is that most people
who try to replace these exercises with 'more effective' versions are
actually looking for 'easier' versions. The squat and deadlift have been
mainstays of strength and mass development since the barbell was
invented for one simple reason.

They work. They work because they are hard and use a lot of motor units.
Quit looking for an easier alternative and get squattin' (and
deadlifting).

As long as my squat goes up my deadlift seems to follow along.

Thing is, I can squat 2-3 times a week, no problem, but if I deadlift more
than
once every other week or so it just kills me.

Should I bother?

Nope.

--
Keith

"Lascivious Mink" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hobbes said:

I wouldn't. I'd squat and do deadlifts. My own take is that most
people who try to replace these exercises with 'more effective'
versions are actually looking for 'easier' versions. The squat and
deadlift have been mainstays of strength and mass development since
the barbell was invented for one simple reason.

They work. They work because they are hard and use a lot of motor
units. Quit looking for an easier alternative and get squattin' (and
deadlifting).

As long as my squat goes up my deadlift seems to follow along.

Thing is, I can squat 2-3 times a week, no problem, but if I deadlift
more than once every other week or so it just kills me.

You're not the only one - read the training log of many powerlifters and
you'll see they squat far more often than the deadlift, and deadlifting
once every week or two isn't unusual. Since I started squatting about a
year and a half ago (after having only DL'ed for 3 or 4 years prior to
that), the same kind of thing has been happening to me, and every though
my deadlift is still much heavier than my squat - my max training squats
aren't even up to my warmups for the DL - the carryover is quite
noticeable. In particular, my DL start is much stronger than it used to
be before I started squatting, and since that was always my weak point,
I'm very happy with the combination.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Should I bother?

Steve Freides said:

- read the training log of many powerlifters and
you'll see they squat far more often

Roughage?

In article <[email hidden]>,

TheBillRodgers said:

Steve Freides said:

- read the training log of many powerlifters and
you'll see they squat far more often

Roughage?

Anything edible.

--
Keith

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:25:01 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Anything edible.

As in "human protein"?

In article <[email hidden]>,

TheBillRodgers said:

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:25:01 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Anything edible.

As in "human protein"?

only deep-fried infants. HTH.

--
Keith

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:30:08 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

only deep-fried infants. HTH

That is DISGUSTING! Everyone knows you are supposed to broil them, or
they get tough.

In article <[email hidden]>,

TheBillRodgers said:

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:30:08 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

only deep-fried infants. HTH

That is DISGUSTING! Everyone knows you are supposed to broil them, or
they get tough.

Powerlifters deep fry everything. Sure, it is disgusting, but...

Nature of the beast.

--
Keith

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:39:00 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Powerlifters deep fry everything. Sure, it is disgusting, but...

I once ate a deep-fried hagis after downing 15 Guinesses at the pub.
When I awoke in the night, there it was, staring me right in the face
from the pillow next to me.

In article <[email hidden]>,

TheBillRodgers said:

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:39:00 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Powerlifters deep fry everything. Sure, it is disgusting, but...

I once ate a deep-fried hagis after downing 15 Guinesses at the pub.
When I awoke in the night, there it was, staring me right in the face
from the pillow next to me.

Are you sure that wasn't the babe you picked up at the pub after
drinking 15 pints?

In the cold, sober light of morning possibly she just looked like a
regurtitated deep fried haggis. If the haggis had some locomotion or
talked to you it could be a sign.

--
Keith

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:55:53 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Are you sure that wasn't the babe you picked up at the pub after
drinking 15 pints?

No "babe" would go home with a guy who drank 15 Guinesses.

Quoted message said:

In the cold, sober light of morning possibly she just looked like a
regurtitated deep fried haggis. If the haggis had some locomotion or
talked to you it could be a sign.

That night, even the walls, and the porcelin god were talking to me.
So anything is possible.

"Lascivious Mink" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hobbes said:

I wouldn't. I'd squat and do deadlifts. My own take is that most people
who try to replace these exercises with 'more effective' versions are
actually looking for 'easier' versions. The squat and deadlift have been
mainstays of strength and mass development since the barbell was invented
for one simple reason.

They work. They work because they are hard and use a lot of motor units.
Quit looking for an easier alternative and get squattin' (and
deadlifting).

As long as my squat goes up my deadlift seems to follow along.

Thing is, I can squat 2-3 times a week, no problem, but if I deadlift more
than once every other week or so it just kills me.

Should I bother?

FWIW, I stopped deadlifting for about 3-4 mths a while back to concentrate
on squats. My first deadlift day back I felt strong so I went for it - PB
on the deadlift and I hadn't done a single deadlift in months. Not sure if
it would work so well the other way round though.

Bob

Lascivious Mink said:

Hobbes said:

I wouldn't. I'd squat and do deadlifts. My own take is that most
people who try to replace these exercises with 'more effective'
versions are actually looking for 'easier' versions. The squat and
deadlift have been mainstays of strength and mass development since
the barbell was invented for one simple reason.

They work. They work because they are hard and use a lot of motor
units. Quit looking for an easier alternative and get squattin' (and
deadlifting).

As long as my squat goes up my deadlift seems to follow along.

Thing is, I can squat 2-3 times a week, no problem, but if I deadlift
more than once every other week or so it just kills me.

Should I bother?

In off season, that's in the summer when resistance training isn't my main
objective. I will go in as often as I can for a twenty minute bout. 2*5 DL
and 2*5 benchpresses. Maximum load on the first set and 90% of that on the
second set. I can do this six times a week no problems and still cycle my
weights upwards for a while and then back down a bit. After that I go ride
my bike 2-4 hours.
So what I'm saying is try changing the way you do your DLs and maybe they
will feel better or at least different.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Lascivious Mink said:

Hobbes said:

I wouldn't. I'd squat and do deadlifts. My own take is that most
people who try to replace these exercises with 'more effective'
versions are actually looking for 'easier' versions. The squat and
deadlift have been mainstays of strength and mass development since
the barbell was invented for one simple reason.

They work. They work because they are hard and use a lot of motor
units. Quit looking for an easier alternative and get squattin' (and
deadlifting).

As long as my squat goes up my deadlift seems to follow along.

Thing is, I can squat 2-3 times a week, no problem, but if I deadlift
more than once every other week or so it just kills me.
Should I bother?

Avoid working to failure, especially on deadlifts.

OK, I prefer to use one post to reply to everybody.

I am not in any competitive sport. All I want is build strength and mass.
So I do not have to practise any particular lift.

Right now I do not object to exercising the dead lift. At least I can do it
without a spotter. But maybe I can combine it with the bench machine dead
lift.

The reason I am looking of an alternative to squat are :
1) At the current time I go to the gym alone. So rarely I have a dedicated
spotter. And I cannot rely on having spotter/spotters available for me in
the future, for the rest of my life.
2) My left knee is agevated since summer. I tried some light weights (60
kgr) free bar squat, to get used to the technique and some leg press (on a
new machine). Since then it is much worse.
3) I do not trust myself that will learn the correct squat technique and
follow it with heavy weights for the rest of my life without injury.
4) From what I understand, the risks of the regular squat are the back and
knees. The back can be hurt by bad technique, whereas the knees will
eventually be hurt. I trust my back, plus I can use lower weights if
needed. For the knees, I am thinking of puting the feet a little forward on
the smith machine. Then I think I protect them. The problem is that
according to Stuart McRobert, this will not protect my knees.

I know that the Smith-squat or Bench machine-dead lift will not work the
stabilazation muscles. This is why I want to combine the stiff leg dead
lift. Won't I work all the muscles then?

Hobbes, what is the correct and safe techique of the Smith machine Squat?

Steve, according to the book:
The Trap Bar, is a terrific aid for the deadlift and is much superior to a
straight bar. It reduces spine stress relative to the straight bar deadlift,
and puts the arms and hands into a near-perfect position. It also makes the
lowering of the bar a reverse of the ascent. With a straight bar, low-ering
the weight can be a problem. This is because the knees get in the way more
on the descent than they do on the ascent. The extent of this depends on
individual structure. This rhombus-like bar lets users get the best from the
deadlift while keeping technique problems to a minimum. With the Trap Bar
deadlift you can involve more leg flexion if you want to make it more of a
squat than a deadlift,

OK, if the straight path of the Smith machine Squat is the problem, then the
Bench machine dead lift can solve this. Because althought the machine has a
restricted ROM, the palms only follow it. But the hands are hanging from my
shoulders and they can move with the correct technique. I.e straight back,
feet positioned correctly etc. And I will be safe without a spotter. What
do you think?

So what if I eliminate the free bar squat and the smith squat. And I could
use:
1) Bench machine dead lift (with increased leg flexion, to make it more like
a squat).
2) Stiff Leg dead lift (to work on the stabilizing muscles?
3) Regular dead lift (unless I have a problem with it).

Thank you guys.
Bob