How to peak two months apart?

JoelH said:

Hi,
Probably not quite the right title for the question but close enough ;-)

Background: I am coming off good form at a 160Km (circa 100Miles) race on 26 November. I had the following week off (last week), small ride or two and that was it. Now looking to peak again end of January for a 150Km race.

Given the timeframe between the two events my understand is that i should look to put some effort back into base work before starting speed again;
1) Base Endurance/Strength for 3 weeks, with small elements of speed work gradually increasing to transition into speed
2) Speed for 4 weeks, with sprint elements

Week 1: Strength
Week 2: Strength
Week 3: Strength
Week 4: Speed/Strength
Week 5: Speed
Week 6: Speed/Sprint.. also racing in a 1 day (3 stages) race this week
Week 7: Speed/Sprint
Week 8: Taper

Not exactly a complicated training regime i know ;-) But i am interested in some educated opinion on this.. i am being stupid? is there a better way?

cheers

joel

Strength! I guess you ought to read "gyming to improve power"

whoawhoa said:

Strength! I guess you ought to read "gyming to improve power"

LOL.. to clarify, by strength i mean low cadence high load strength intervals, Flat and hill sessions. twice a week.

not hitting the gym.. it is summer in the southern hemisphere, i would rather be out on the bike 🙂

cheers

joel

Honnestly, there are no right no wrong.

Your first peak returned you some feed back about your actual fitness level. You should now know your strength and weekness. Between the two peaks, you must maintain your strength, and do a last attempt at improving your weekness.

And it also depends on the coarse. If there are things in that second event that require more attention (e.g. hills), then you need to put more time there.

For what it is worth, with only two months between the peaks, I doubt that you have time to develop base training, you would loos too much speed doing that. At least 4 or 5 month between the main events, are required to start from the bottom after each peak, in my opinion.

🙂

SolarEnergy said:

Honnestly, there are no right no wrong.

Your first peak returned you some feed back about your actual fitness level. You should now know your strength and weekness. Between the two peaks, you must maintain your strength, and do a last attempt at improving your weekness.

And it also depends on the coarse. If there are things in that second event that require more attention (e.g. hills), then you need to put more time there.

For what it is worth, with only two months between the peaks, I doubt that you have time to develop base training, you would loos too much speed doing that. At least 4 or 5 month between the main events, are required to start from the bottom after each peak, in my opinion.

🙂

cheers mate those are good points, the 160Km race was fairly hilly (about 1600m of ascent) so coming off a lot of hill work, the 150Km at end of jan is fairly flat (only about 900m of ascent).. also looking to hold form for a Criterium and TT mid Febuary as well.

Which is why i am looking to build flats strength, in that stength phase i am doing some AT intervals so as to not lose to much speed before starting the speed phase full on.

As for weaknesses, those are hills, i am 192cm tall and weigh 85 Kg (can't lose much more) so my power to weight makes life hard for me in the hills but in saying that i did 4hrs 18min for the hilly 160km which i quite happy with.. but i spent a lot of training on the hills ;-)

cheers

joel

JoelH said:

LOL.. to clarify, by strength i mean low cadence high load strength intervals, Flat and hill sessions. twice a week.

Uggghh.....🙁 I'm no expert, but I would never do low cadence/high force intervals during the competition period. It takes too long to recover from them, IMO, and if you overdo them it can force a major reduction in training and lengthy recovery process. Just side thought there, and your experience may differ.

The real point I wanted to make is that while your list explains your intended focus during those weeks, it doesn't address the volume aspect of your training over the next 8 weeks. Are you planning to vary the number/duration of rides each week? Also, I don't think you necessarily need to work on "Base" fitness again at this point as much as just gradually building back up to a high volume of aerobic training.

My suggestion would be to spend weeks 1-3 doing primarily long tempo rides (highly variable, but sub- to near-threshold overall -- ie, road race style rides) with each week building on the previous in terms of total volume. After that you can pretty much resume your typical competition level workout routine, building both intensity and volume each week towards your taper.

Here's an article which discusses what you're looking to do:
pezcyclingnews.compezcyclingnews.comOpen ↗
You may find more ideas there. Good luck! 🙂

frenchyge said:

Uggghh.....🙁 I'm no expert, but I would never do low cadence/high force intervals during the competition period....

I agree. Good comment.

In fact, his next important meeting is quite long in distance, and flat coarse. I see no point of working low rpm, especialy in the hills. Its too late for this. He would probably loose speed (low rpm is not very specific), longer recovery time I don't know, probably, risks for injuries may be higher. Many downsides, no many benefits IMO.

Given the distance (150k), I agree that he should favor Tempo and LT work.

JoelH said:

As for weaknesses, those are hills, i am 192cm tall and weigh 85 Kg (can't lose much more) so my power to weight makes life hard for me in the hills but in saying that i did 4hrs 18min for the hilly 160km which i quite happy with..
joel

It is understood that your weaknesse is hill riding. But at that stage of your season, you definitely want to climb hills at a RPM specific to your racing RPM.

Do you typically climb off the saddle? Or on the saddle.

🙂

I know a lot of elite track riders who would definitely be doing SE training in the competition period. One of my own riders has been doing large gear efforts in the hills and has been enjoying great success while racing. Aussie coaching legend Charlie Walsh utilises big gear work in all training periods.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

SolarEnergy said:

I agree. Good comment.

In fact, his next important meeting is quite long in distance, and flat coarse. I see no point of working low rpm, especialy in the hills. Its too late for this. He would probably loose speed (low rpm is not very specific), longer recovery time I don't know, probably, risks for injuries may be higher. Many downsides, no many benefits IMO.

Given the distance (150k), I agree that he should favor Tempo and LT work.

It is understood that your weaknesse is hill riding. But at that stage of your season, you definitely want to climb hills at a RPM specific to your racing RPM.

Do you typically climb off the saddle? Or on the saddle.

🙂

I tend to climb in the saddle, main reason i had steered clear of LT tempo work is that i am concerned about burning myself out as i had associated it with speed work.

As to volumes, peaking volume wise around New Years.. my other constraint is during working week i limited to 5 hours in week, and 4-5 hours (1ride) on the weekend (i have a young son). So can not really build aerobic volume up too much, really looking to manipulate training principles within that.

Thanks for the opinions.. i will remove those strength aspects, replace with LT intervcals and hill Tempo work, then transition into start AT intervals in speed.

cheers

joel

[quote="JoelH"]

Quoted post said:

I tend to climb in the saddle, main reason i had steered clear of LT tempo work is that i am concerned about burning myself out as i had associated it with speed work.

Quoted post said:

Thanks for the opinions.. i will remove those strength aspects, replace with LT intervcals and hill Tempo work, then transition into start AT intervals in speed.

fergie said:

As we hit the final 6 weeks to our Track Cycling Nationals in NZ nearly all the coaches are doing some form of big gear efforts within the programme.

I think this requires more debate.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Why refering to Track Cycling preferences?

fergie said:

How do you define LT?

How do you define AT?

Don't write off the SE work just yet. Like the huge amount of kilometres the AIS riders used to do Charlie Walsh didn't know exactely why SE training was so effective but knew if the riders did it they were far better prepared fo racing.

As we hit the final 6 weeks to our Track Cycling Nationals in NZ nearly all the coaches are doing some form of big gear efforts within the programme.

I think this requires more debate.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

What intensity are they doing these at? Is it possible that the benefit comes from somewhere other than the use a big gear?

fergie said:

How do you define LT?

How do you define AT?

Don't write off the SE work just yet. Like the huge amount of kilometres the AIS riders used to do Charlie Walsh didn't know exactely why SE training was so effective but knew if the riders did it they were far better prepared fo racing.

As we hit the final 6 weeks to our Track Cycling Nationals in NZ nearly all the coaches are doing some form of big gear efforts within the programme.

I think this requires more debate.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Hi Hamish,
Thanks for the post.. one of the reasons i had initially planned on SE work was i understood i needed to put some effort back into base given the length of time. Still think i need to focus on base, but what that base work is another question ;-)

LT, blood test (3 weeks ago), at 157 HR, Power at LT is 297 Watts
AT, blood test (3 weeks ago), at 167 HR, Power at AT is 331 Watts

Power was a ramped test (3 minutes, 30 watts increase)

cheers

joel

JoelH said:

Hi Hamish,
Thanks for the post.. one of the reasons i had initially planned on SE work was i understood i needed to put some effort back into base given the length of time. Still think i need to focus on base, but what that base work is another question ;-)

LT, blood test (3 weeks ago), at 157 HR, Power at LT is 297 Watts
AT, blood test (3 weeks ago), at 167 HR, Power at AT is 331 Watts

Power was a ramped test (3 minutes, 30 watts increase)

cheers

joel

How are you defining base? Don't mean to be a jerk but lots of people have different definitions for this.

whoawhoa said:

How are you defining base? Don't mean to be a jerk but lots of people have different definitions for this.

It's allright, fair question. Given the heavy emphasis on speed i am coming off, i was looking at base to re-establish aerobic capacity.. and including strength work within that. So long rides on week (say circa 4+ hours) was going to be hilly, climbing at LT, during base.

As during speed work leading into the race (it was Taupo for those in the southern hemisphere) i was doing heavy speed work and doing races on weekend.. couple of TT's and 100Km races that where all over in 2-3 hours.

My understanding is that my aerobic aspects would have dropped off from so much emphasis on speed?

cheers

joel

JoelH said:

It's allright, fair question. Given the heavy emphasis on speed i am coming off, i was looking at base to re-establish aerobic capacity.. and including strength work within that. So long rides on week (say circa 4+ hours) was going to be hilly, climbing at LT, during base.

As during speed work leading into the race (it was Taupo for those in the southern hemisphere) i was doing heavy speed work and doing races on weekend.. couple of TT's and 100Km races that where all over in 2-3 hours.

My understanding is that my aerobic aspects would have dropped off from so much emphasis on speed?

cheers

joel

I doubt it. Unless you were doing very, very short intervals or sprints. moderate to long intervals may be a better way to train your aerobic system than long rides.

I do have a language barriere, I am sorry. So I still don't know what you meant in answering these questions

Define AT (Is it Anaerobic Threshold?)
Define LT (Is it Lactate Threshold?)
Define Base (at what % of what do you train base)

What have been your training regiment over the last 6 months (roughly)?

SolarEnergy said:

I do have a language barriere, I am sorry. So I still don't know what you meant in answering these questions

Define AT (Is it Anaerobic Threshold?)
Define LT (Is it Lactate Threshold?)
Define Base (at what % of what do you train base)

What have been your training regiment over the last 6 months (roughly)?

No worries, yep your definitions are my definitions ;-) for base i look to train at 60-75% of Hr-max

Rough overview
July: Base, low HR effort, volume was around 6 hours a week, plus birth of son so hard to fit bike time in 🙂

August: Base, low HR effort, volume was around 8-9 hours a week, with long hilly rides on weekend

September: Base with SE work twice a week, with long hilly rides, climbing at LT, volume 8-9 hours a week

October: Speed, climbing intervals at AT, flat intervals at AT, long hilly rides climbing at AT, 2 races, volume 8-10 hours a week

November: Speed, climbing intervals at AT, flat intervals at AT, long hilly rides climbing at AT, 2 races + target event, volume 8-10 hours a week

At peak of speed, the climbing AT intervals ascent was a sum of 1700m in session, Flat AT intervals 2x25min, plus racing efforts

I got tests done start of september and mid November;

1 September: LT HR= 153, LT Power=255, AT HR = 163, AT Power=289, Max Power=370
15 November: LT HR= 157,LT Power=297, AT HR = 167, AT Power=331 , Max Power=410

Bearing in mind i am 192cm tall, weighing 85kg, around 9.5% bodyfat

cheers

joel

PS: thanks for all the comments to date.. it is good to get constructive feedback.

I am glad you appreciate.

First of all Joel, don't be confused if you get different opinions on what to do. Different coaches having different experiences, may end up with differents ingredients, the recepe shall still be good.

Your performance on the first event (160k in 4:18) is very good. Not knowing about your other performances, I just have one point on the chart. I know nothing about the overall curve. But we probably agree on the fact that your LT and AT have still room for improvement. This year, and for the next couple of years.

You climb on the saddle. And in the same time, you mention it is a weakness. But in your next event, you say there is not gonna be that many hills.

You may want to favor continue climbing on the saddle in the next event. But to improve your overall performances, try to exploit cadence (velocity), rather than force, to climb those hills. I know good climbers that climb 8% at 85-90 RPM. For what it is worth of course.

Hamish mention that Low RPM high resistance training can turn into speed. I don't directly see how, but if he says so. It is probably true I guess. He really knows something I don't.

But what I do know for sure, is that LT requires maintenance. Not that you can totally loose it, but to stay really sharp, it requires good care. I find it is the first thing that tends to shade off if neglected.

Now you mention both LT and AT. I assume your LT is at around 2 mmol/L and AT at around 4 mmol/L. Forget about those numbers. Lets think LT 60min, and AT40min. Your LT workouts are not supposed to be speed work per se. It is supposed to be a bit over your race effort, but not that much. Long intervals (10-30 minutes) are better I think. Or even 40 to 75 min TT.

So when you think LT, think longer efforts. Be more specific to the distance you wanna race. It should only takes a day or two before being able to do quality again. Make sure you take an easy week, every 3 or 4 weeks.

Frenchyge mentionned about tempo training. That is your racing intensity. So... I think it's important. You need to ride at that intensity, to master it, and to allow your system to metabolize as much fat possible. Test your feeding protocole also.

Read RapDaddyo's comments on the thread about sprint programs. You'll see that he favors long rides with a salad of different working intensities, with proper rest at base intensity in between. Two peaks, separated by two months, that may be a good approach, to blend everything a little more, both to maitain the base aspect, as well as the specific aspect.

Intervals at lactate threshold? I get riders doing 4-5 hours rides above the lactate (2mmol) threshold. In your Lake Taupo race you would have spent the entire duration above it to record that good a time. It's not that far off Pete Latham who is a medalist at U23 Worlds and part of the NZ Teams Pursuit currently ranked 4th in the World. Makes sense to do a lot of training at that level.

Intervals done at your anaerobic threshold (4mmol) if done correctly will take more out of you. You can only do these for 4 week period. I would get some long rides in, switch to some threshold work (AT) and then rest up in the final week and give it heaps.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach