More Crazy stuff- Across the years race

Quoted message said:

I just love Lance's postulates>

Yeah, we know you love his prostate, and the immediate, surrounding
areas.

Doug Freese said:

I just love it when Lance's postulates about ultra running and crazy
events so I thought I would beat him to this race . How about this one
http://www.acrosstheyears.com/cgi-bin/results.cgi Notice the ages
especially Yiannis Kouros of the top 8 and even further down.

-DF

I have ta love positions 9-12. The "kids" beaten by someone almost twice
their age, although a couple of them did move up after I went to bed.
But the 73/39 "battle" was already there. I saw a couple real kids (<20)
in there also - looked like a couple family affairs. Must've been
awesome for them to share the course with Kouros (if they knew who he was).

I haven't looked at the weather or anything else yet, but I notice
Kouros did get to 300 mi but not his 350 mi goal, nor did Geesler get
the 300 mi he ran last year. Still pretty incredible!

Dot

--
"Dream big and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughan
world-famous adventurer who was with Byrd in Antarctica and died Dec 23,
2005, at 100 yr + 4 days.

ok, i'll bite...but not at the obvious (age).
1)note when the event commenced in the 6 hour competition, there was
one entry, a single lone runnner. This would not meet many of the
definitions of a "race". For example one I just read stated, "An
extended competition in which participants struggle like runners to be
the winner". I concede it will meet some of the more general
definitions such as "A competition of speed".
hence i've always lampooned these events as far more endurance
challenges as opposed to "races"...and consequently the domain for
those with lots of time to kill....like ballooning around the world,
etc. meanwhile i've always noted there are lots of guys in their 50's,
60's & 70's who've haven't thrown in the towel on competitively racing
in 5Ks, 10Ks, etc.

2). did you see the rules in this event on rabbits and the like?
basically it's within the RDs purview & discretion if and when you can
have a group of friends running with you....and actual "group", not
just a lone rabbit. this is a prize money event and i know of no
prize money race wherein a group of friends, non-entrants, can run with
you in the event. so when i lampoon these type of events....it's
because of facts like this one I have illustrated above.

alas the wold and r.r. is big enough for all people...the endurance
challenge runners and the competitive runners. that's my response
dougie fresh, happy new year to you.

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Quoted message said:

I concede it will meet some of the more general
definitions such as "A competition of speed".
hence i've always lampooned these events as far more endurance
challenges as opposed to "races"...

Interesting definition. I'm not sure how you are defining endurance and
why endurance and speed do not commingle. I seem to denote a view that
all endurance events, whatever the distance or time you perceive it , is
somehow not a speed event and only for those people with time and
declining talent.

Quoted message said:

meanwhile I've always noted there are lots of guys in their 50's,
60's & 70's who've haven't thrown in the towel on competitively racing
in 5Ks, 10Ks, etc.

So sprints to 10k are true racing and anything else is jogging? If I was
a 100 meter wiz the 5k would be an endurance event and you would denoted
as a plodder. 😉 Don't people simply find the distance they like to run
and those competitive try to run the fastest they can for that distance?
How is 5k different than any endurance run.

Quoted message said:

2). did you see the rules in this event on rabbits and the like?
basically it's within the RDs purview & discretion if and when you can
have a group of friends running with you....and actual "group", not
just a lone rabbit.

Quoted message said:

this is a prize money event and i know of no
prize money race wherein a group of friends, non-entrants, can run
with
you in the event.

There aren't many because endurance running is hardly ever about money
and I would say 90-95% would become very irate if they become money
fests with five year age groups and Clydesdale categories. I most case
the first place runner gets the same rock or belt buckle. I think it's
great to run with friends. As long as it doesn't interfere with
another runner, why not.

Quoted message said:

so when i lampoon these type of events....it's
because of facts like this one I have illustrated above.

The rules are the same for everyone and such there is no advantage. One
of the reasons that endurance runners eschew the roads is precisely for
some on these reasons.

Quoted message said:

alas the wold and r.r. is big enough for all people...the endurance
challenge runners and the competitive runners.

I know it's hard to fathom but endurance and speed do go together. Is
Lance a wussy because he does the Tour and not sprint tris. Is Yiannis
Kouros just a fast walker?

Quoted message said:

that's my response dougie fresh, happy new year to you.

Same to you...

-DF

Quoted message said:

Don't people simply find the distance they like to run and those competitive try to run the fastest they can for that distance?

__
no. "those competitive" (your words) generally recognize, evaluate, &
consider the field. that's what's missing from your observation doug.
an awarness of the "field of competition".

you again mention Kouros. with him, the issue w/me for example is not
that he's not amazing at these "feat events". of course he is. but
i ask, "is he a one trick pony"? again, i am not discrediting his
feats and endurance accomplishments. i am simply wondering if he's
carved out a niche for himself...one that draws no where near the fire
and competition of marathons for example.

i probably know more about him than most that will comment on this
thread. i've read lots and lots of his poetry, i've even heard his
recordings...and really admire the man he his. however that's separate
from taking a close and critical view of his racing actions. if you
read his poetry...you'll see he's mentality is into personal challenge
and not competition against other runners. i am not being critical
here, i am being observational.

however if i could direct a line of questioning with him...it would
revolve around standard fare racing (the stuff you see in the Olympics
for example). now the last marathon time I am aware he clocked was
2:43 on an Athens course. I have no idea how that course translates to
NYC however that time would have gotten him 7th place in his own age
group.

the "diversion" that I sense is promoted around kronous is to focus in
on his "feats" and not his competitive results in events that attract
competitive fields. i don't think it's an out of line question to say,
"does Yannis intentionally choose to be a big fish in a small pond"?
I think that's a fair and valid question. if that's your cup of
tea...that's fine.

however i personally am more attracted to those that try to be big fish
in big ponds. i would be more impressed by yannis if he asserted he
would going to win his age group in Chicago in the Fall, and Win London
in the Spring.....as opposed to saying "he is going to run a zillion
miles for 6 days in a row, etc.".

Yannis is a beautiful man in every way. Having said that, I think it's
a fair observation to note he tends to place himself in events wherein
he's a big fish in a small pond. Determine from that what you choose
to i though am of the nature to wonder why he does not make it his
goal to be the biggest fish in the biggest pond(s). (but as i eluded
to, if you read his poetry...you'll see he's not into competition with
his peers). I don't expect anyone to share my values and
ambitions....we're all individuals and have our unique motivations as
to why we race. As I said, the running tent is big enough to welcome
all....competitive, personal challenge, endurace...etc...

Quoted message said:

How is 5k different than any endurance run.

the "field' doug. the "field". real life narrows/thins the field in
these endurance races. hence the very nature of these endurance events
exludes and diminishes "competition". not a whole lot of people have
the priviledge to train to run and race 50 or 100 miles. most folks
are busy with their lives and making ends meet, etc. but a lot of
people do indeed have the priveldge to run and train for a 5K.

A guy like DK can be an ultra superstar....as long as he stays in these
events with these fields. I don't think DK would make any noise at all
if he entered a 5K here in NYC. Just an opinion and answer to your
question. "Fields" make all the difference Doug. Every single one of
us on rec. running is a neighborhood superstar. Our neighbors think
we're unbelievable and amazing. I know that without even asking.
However we all now (at least in my case), I am nothing special on race
day....in the fields I compete against.

So a 5K is different than an endurance in the scope/scale/dimenion of
the field of competiton it attracts. That's the answwer to your
question and makes all the difference.

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't people simply find the distance they like to run and those
competitive try to run the fastest they can for that distance?

__
no. "those competitive" (your words) generally recognize, evaluate,
&
consider the field. that's what's missing from your observation doug.
an awarness of the "field of competition".

Interesting notion but not one that I would agree with. Are you
suggesting that people pick the people they want to beat and then try to
excel at the distance? Since you seem to stalk Donovan in your
proverbial Big D contest does that mean if he decides to become the 42k
specialist you will then train to be one also?

Tell me what race at what distance doesn't have competition? To take
your notion a step further when did competition become only the Big D
contest between runners? No to be disrespectful but I liken this
attitude to a 12 year old and masturbation - they all go through it and
grow out of it as the main source of release. I find competition is
within the runner. It's him against the clock. Not to say that having
someone in visual proximity does not drive someone to run harder or
faster. I contend it takes even more balls to it alone. Do I assume a 5k
race format where runners start 10 minutes apart is not competitive?
One might contend you have a Big D syndrome.

I still feel a runner finds the distance(s) that right for his skills
and abilities and competes. So we will agree to disagree.

Quoted message said:

you again mention Kouros. with him, the issue w/me for example is not
that he's not amazing at these "feat events". of course he is. but
i ask, "is he a one trick pony"? again, i am not discrediting his
feats and endurance accomplishments. i am simply wondering if he's
carved out a niche for himself...one that draws no where near the fire
and competition of marathons for example.

Maybe, I don't know but does take on all that do it. Frankly I do find
it amazing that he can run that that hard and fast, ALONE. One could
posture was beating the second place runner(out own NY boy Geesler) by
60 miles necessary? He did publicly set some mileage goals and put the
hammer down. Calling it a trick pony is a little disingenuous.

Quoted message said:

however if i could direct a line of questioning with him...it would
revolve around standard fare racing (the stuff you see in the Olympics
for example). now the last marathon time I am aware he clocked was
2:43 on an Athens course. I have no idea how that course translates
to
NYC however that time would have gotten him 7th place in his own age
group.

Is the Marathon distance for you is the high water mark or the max
distance the Olympics offers? They are trying to get the 100k added to
the Olympics and who knows maybe even longer distances.

Quoted message said:

however i personally am more attracted to those that try to be big
fish
in big ponds. i would be more impressed by yannis if he asserted he
would going to win his age group in Chicago in the Fall, and Win
London
in the Spring.....as opposed to saying "he is going to run a zillion
miles for 6 days in a row, etc.".

It's you opinion and fine. I could claim you're a big wussy because you
won't step up rather then he is trick pony for not stepping down. I find
both statements woefully disingenuous.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How is 5k different than any endurance run.

the "field' doug. the "field". real life narrows/thins the field
in
these endurance races. hence the very nature of these endurance
events
exludes and diminishes "competition".

How many competitive people does it take for you to define a field. You
seem to think that ultra races are all people out for a Sunday stroll
and have tea and crumpets at each aid station. Let me assure you there
is competition abounding. Ask Dan who often finishes in the top 10. The
nature of the competition is different in that it is not a side by side
battle. Someone can be a hour in front and [censored] the bed in that few
miles and get trounced. Competitive runners know who they will battle
unless you get the unknown rookie.

Quoted message said:

not a whole lot of people have
the priviledge to train to run and race 50 or 100 miles. most folks
are busy with their lives and making ends meet, etc.

That's is simply not true and after all my other posts you still hide
behind this. I worked 60 hours a week, raised two kids and only
deprived my family on Saturdays which was my long run. All my other
training was before the kids got up in the morning. if you canvas the
ultra forum you would be amazed how many people get up at 4 am for 2-3
hour run nor go out at 9 or 10 at night.

Ultra racing does mean mega miles. I'm not saying some elites don't do
100+ but average for a 50 mile race, from the few polls taken is about
50-60 MPW and for the 100, 60-70MPW. I see people running these miles
in 10k's. I will admit that the quality of the miles is much harder in
that elevation is primary and that takes more time and why weekends are
reserved for long runs.

Quoted message said:

So a 5K is different than an endurance in the scope/scale/dimenion of
the field of competiton it attracts. That's the answwer to your
question and makes all the difference.

They both have the same scale so your argument is titillating smoke
albeit fun to have the dialog. Someday you may find real competition is
how you do vs. the clock and not how you do vs. Mr. X. I'd suggest you
set your sights inside - have a talk with yourself. Reminds me of an
article that I read many years ago and the Sherpa. When asked how the
felt about conquering the mountain the replied, we never conquer the
mountain we become one with the mountain. Hopefully the subtlety does
escape you. 🙂

-DougF

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Quoted message said:

Every single one of
us on rec. running is a neighborhood superstar. Our neighbors think
we're unbelievable and amazing. I know that without even asking.

I'm pretty sure my neighbours don't think the words "unbelievable
and amazing" as I run by, but I can completely see you believing
that about yourself. I bet you feel like you don't even have to ask. ;-)

cheers,
--
David Hirsh, director
www.urbanburn.com - half marathon, full throttle!
www.absolutelyaccurate.com - Hamilton's summer series!

Quoted message said:

Tell me what race at what distance doesn't have competition?

i already did in my first reponse to your post. you elected to bring
up this event, not me. in its commencement in the 6 hour running event
there was one entry. i have answered your question and you can confirm
it's accuracy with the link you provided.

but that was too easy and not the answer your looking for. how's this
answer suit you

"The average age among Badwater runners this year was 46; the youngest
male was 31. " "Older [athletes] have more structure in their lives and
they have the time and the money to invest," Kostman said. "And it's
not a very glamorous event. People for the most part are doing ultras
as a personal quest". (not my words but those of this below article).
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05256/570503.stm

This view Doug F. is consistent with what I have always asserted.
People can draw their own conclusions in examining the age statisitcs,
the age of the winners and those that place..in these events in
context to the rest of the world of running races (10Ks, Marathons,
etc.)

Quoted message said:

I find competition is within the runner. It's him against the clock.

Well Doug, the USTAF, IAAF, Olympics, NCAA and just about every
sporting organization in the world disagrees with your view. Culture
Doug, racing event culture has something called "the winner". In the
Olympics it's represented with a Gold Medal. Running organizations all
over the world have awards for those that place 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
There's is even prize money as an incentive for a runner to out-perform
other runners. I understand you find "competition is within the
runner, it's him against the clock". That's noble and admirable Doug.
Unfortunately it's also completely disconnected from the real world of
racing events. In fact Doug, racing events are often entirely
influenced and shaped, completely formed with total awareness of other
runners (the competition)...strategy is based on awareness of moves of
other runners...that's the real world Doug. Ya know Doug, Paula
Radcliffe claims that in the Athens Olympics at mile 22 or
thereabouts...when she was passed dropping her from 3rd place to 4th
place....that event is why she quit the race. She said with no hopes
of a medal to be had, she had no desire to even continue on. Now I am
not agreeing or disagreeing with Miss Radcliffe, I am simply
illustrating that for some people....it's all about competition with
other runners.

Quoted message said:

You seem to think that ultra races are all people out for a Sunday stroll

and have tea and crumpets at each aid station.

No, but as I can readily document by the views of many people...and
have often on this ng, as I have in this response....they (ultras) are
the domain with those will plenty of time on their hands. That's clear
and a very shared view, even by those in the events.

Meanwhile as I have always asserted, I know plenty of guys in their
50's and 60's who like to lace up their flats and kick ass week in,
week out in 5Ks, 10K, and 1/2Marathons. They really really like
attacking the field of other runners...the competition.

Doug...I am not saying anything negative about Ultras in this
thread...I am simply making observational commentary. It's an
impressive feat to run 100 miles.

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tell me what race at what distance doesn't have competition?

i already did in my first reponse to your post. you elected to bring
up this event, not me. in its commencement in the 6 hour running
event
there was one entry. i have answered your question and you can
confirm
it's accuracy with the link you provided.

You're off on a childish tangent and which proves nothing. If this is
your best answer to what was really discussed you are being poor troll
today. Perhaps the lack of O2 from riding the couch has slowed some of
those synapses. Get well soon we need better repartee.

-DF

doug, i am factually accurate commenting and referencing directly on
_your_ elected topic, link, and event. you asked a question, i
answered with your provided informationa dn content. would you explain
to me how exactly that renders me to be "childish" and going off on a
"tangent"? i am serious doug. how precisely is that childish and "off
on a tangent"?

methinks douggie doesn't like it when i don't take the bait the way he
wants me to. if offered you plenty of content to counter....but i see
you're nonresponsive. who's really trolling here doug? as i recall,
you injected me into the topic.

Quoted message said:

i don't think it's an out of line question to say,
"does Yannis intentionally choose to be a big fish in a small pond"?
I think that's a fair and valid question.

It is. What defeats me is why he doesn't go to run his marathons in the
USA, because the "field" you go on about so much is a lot less competitive
than in Europe.

Examples of 2005 marathons:
Finishers Win Time <3h (chip times)
NYC 36856 2:09:30 590
Chicago 32868 2:07:02 668
Paris 28857 2:08:02 1450+
Berlin 30382 2:07:41 1054
London 35009 2:07:26 1130

Indeed I can't see why anyone who sets great store by the "competitive
field" more than anything else would have the slightest motivation to race
in a US marathon. Any clues for me?

Quoted message said:

No, but as I can readily document by the views of many people...and
have often on this ng, as I have in this response....they (ultras) are
the domain with those will plenty of time on their hands. That's clear
and a very shared view, even by those in the events.

That's just not true Lance. Or, at best, it's a generality you've
extrapolated from a narrow sample.

All the ultrarunners I know have full-time jobs and are not top executives
or rich entrepreneurs or what have you. The "best" young French
ultrarunner who I met personally is an unqualified labourer and can't
afford to go to the major events if they're outside France, for example.

The French 100km world championship team of a cpouple of years back had
members who trained on weekly distances like Doug quoted you. They did no
runs over 3h except for a one marathon run at 100k pace.

steve common said:

Quoted message said:

No, but as I can readily document by the views of many people...and
have often on this ng, as I have in this response....they (ultras) are
the domain with those will plenty of time on their hands. That's clear
and a very shared view, even by those in the events.

That's just not true Lance. Or, at best, it's a generality you've
extrapolated from a narrow sample.

All the ultrarunners I know have full-time jobs and are not top executives
or rich entrepreneurs or what have you.

snip...

If they were it would give new meaning to the phrase
"take the money and run..." ;-)

steve common said:

Examples of 2005 marathons:
(...)

Or, the M45 winner's time:

New York 2:37:10
Chicago 2:34:17
London 2:30:42
Berlin 2:29:17
Paris* 2:25:00

*No such category in France, but the VH1 (M40-49) winner was in this
age bracket.

Anders