Are you Talking to Me?

From the Herald-Sun article cited by Eric:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"We've been working on the freestyle events . . . my 200m and 400m have

improved a lot over the past year," said Phelps, who set American records in the 200m and 400m
freestyle at the US nationals in August. <<

When I get time, I'm going to post:

(1) Michael Phelps, swimming the 200 free at the Janet Evans Invitational, July, 2002. He was a
symmetrically-swimming, non-loper.

(2) Michael Phelps, swimming the 200 free at the World Championships (leadoff of the 4 x 200 relay),
in which he had morphed into an asymmetrically-swimming loper.

I have debated on this newsgroup with some who have claimed that such assymetry is "not
significant," which is, presumably, why no one has really ever made the effort to study it, much
less teach it.

I think that Phelps offers a wonderful, controlled opportunity to dissect the nuances of the loping
stroke...to see what it is that Phelps is doing differently in one year to change from a non-loper
to a loper and to consider, seriously, what role the development of the lope may have played in
Phelps' self-reported (and objectively documented) improvement.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in a message

<<I have debated on this newsgroup with some who have claimed that such assymetry is "not
significant," which is, presumably, why no one has really ever made the effort to study it, much
less teach it.>

Hi Larry. Why don't you email, phone, write or otherwise contact Bob Bowman and see if he A. taught
Michael to lope, B. recognized he was loping and made no effort to counteract it, or C. doesn't know
what you're talking about?

I think that would be most instructive.

Let me know if you need Bowman's email address, phone number, or mailing address. I'm sure I can get
them for you.

Regards,

Scott

Larry,

Stop misquoting me.

You know very well that my statement about asymmetry was about how to tell different stroke styles
(TI, kayaking, loping) apart because every one of these styles is swum asymmetrically by some
swimmers. And while I'm on that topic, is Phelps loping or is he swimming a different stroke style
asymmetrically? Asymmetry does not mean that a swimmer is loping, as we've clearly seen with Popov
from Don's video download. We don't know until we look in detail at his stroke.

Asymmetry is "not significant" for determining which stroke style a swimmer is using.

Colin

"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From the Herald-Sun article cited by Eric:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"We've been working on the freestyle events . . . my 200m and 400m have

improved a lot over the past year," said Phelps, who set American records

in

Quoted message said:

the 200m and 400m freestyle at the US nationals in August. <<

When I get time, I'm going to post:

(1) Michael Phelps, swimming the 200 free at the Janet Evans Invitational, July, 2002. He was a
symmetrically-swimming, non-loper.

(2) Michael Phelps, swimming the 200 free at the World Championships

(leadoff

Quoted message said:

of the 4 x 200 relay), in which he had morphed into an

asymmetrically-swimming

Quoted message said:

loper.

I have debated on this newsgroup with some who have claimed that such

assymetry

Quoted message said:

is "not significant," which is, presumably, why no one has really ever

made the

Quoted message said:

effort to study it, much less teach it.

I think that Phelps offers a wonderful, controlled opportunity to dissect

the

Quoted message said:

nuances of the loping stroke...to see what it is that Phelps is doing differently in one year to
change from a non-loper to a loper and to

consider,

Quoted message said:

seriously, what role the development of the lope may have played in

Phelps'

Quoted message said:

self-reported (and objectively documented) improvement.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[email hidden] (Scott Lemley) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in a message

<<I have debated on this newsgroup with some who have claimed that such assymetry is "not
significant," which is, presumably, why no one has really ever made the effort to study it, much
less teach it.>

Hi Larry. Why don't you email, phone, write or otherwise contact Bob Bowman and see if he A.
taught Michael to lope, B. recognized he was loping and made no effort to counteract it, or C.
doesn't know what you're talking about?

I think that would be most instructive.

Let me know if you need Bowman's email address, phone number, or mailing address. I'm sure I can
get them for you.

Regards,

Scott

It's worth a try, Scott, but it's obviously extremely unlikely that Phelps or his Coach would
respond to a query like that. As mentioned in his "Oz" interview, his Olympic Trials schedule is
"top secret". Given that the Olympics are less than a year away, it would hardly seem prudent for
Bob Bowman, who recently won Coach of the Year honors, to start divulging technique secrets.
(assuming he has any) Plus he'd be scooping himself for any potential book he may write down the
line detailing his training of what may prove to be the World's greatest swimmer.

Eric

PS "Turn-around" is always one of the best weapons 🙂 Now if a long-time swim coach were to approach
Bowman, he may find a more receptive audience given that he's a colleague, and not a "hobbyist".

"Scott Lemley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in a message

<<I have debated on this newsgroup with some who have claimed that such assymetry is "not
significant," which is, presumably, why no one has really ever made the effort to study it, much
less teach it.>

Hi Larry. Why don't you email, phone, write or otherwise contact Bob Bowman and see if he A.
taught Michael to lope, B. recognized he was loping and made no effort to counteract it, or C.
doesn't know what you're talking about?

I think that would be most instructive.

Let me know if you need Bowman's email address, phone number, or mailing address. I'm sure I can
get them for you.

Regards,

Scott

Hey, Scott.. you said you coach kids and national swimmers, right? Level 1-7, something like that?

Since you haven't posted in a little while, I was wondering maybe you were at the USMS convention in
San Diego. I'm not sure if that would be the kind of a thing you'd be interested in going to.

[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi Larry. Why don't you email, phone, write or otherwise contact Bob

Bowman and see if he A. taught Michael to lope, B. recognized he was loping and made no effort to
counteract it, or C. doesn't know what you're talking about?<<

That's a good idea...I've noticed the same thing, by the way, regarding Diana Munz, circa Year
2000 Olympic Trials and Diana Munz, circa 2003 World Championships. Munz swam symmetrically with
her head down in 2000 (possibly because of her relatively recent neck fracture?). At Barcelona,
she swam, as I reported before, very similar to Janet Evans (albeit with a more conventional, bent
elbow recovery). But the raising the head out of the water while looking forward, asymmetric
loping stroke is the closest to Janet's style I've seen in a world class swimmer.

So I thought about also writing to Diana's LESD coach and asking if this was something intentional
and, if so, who's idea it was.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

I've studied videos on Donald Graft's site of Diana Munz quite a bit. She's a beautiful swimmer to
watch. I've seen her go from a 2-beat, to 4-beat, to 6-beat kick all on successive cycles. She's
also the first swimmer I've seen use a 4-beat pattern with three of the beats coming on her
NON-breathing side. That's very interesting to me, because if the lope is partially to make up for
lack of strength and coordination on the swimmers non-dominant side (usually the left), then it's
possible that kicking more on that side would be as effective as loping.

She often looks at the bottom of the pool after breathing, and then pops her head to look at the far
side pool wall coincident with the next catch. That style is very consistent with what we've seen
other swimmers do.

But she does not lift her head in nearly as consistent a manner as Janet Evans did, who seemed to do
it on every stroke.

Eric

It seems to me after quietly observing this debate for some time, that there is little discussion
about the difference between body position of elite racers AT RACING SPEED vs. training speed
position and focus. (Even at my pathetic times, the hydrodyamics seem to alter when I max out my
kick and really start to crank-head position seems less crucial, I feel like I'm more on top of the
water,etc and a different part (non-analytical) of the brain kicks in). This discussion is based on
racing footage. A question seems to be whether training to lope,e.g., will improve performance?

dont you want to roll on your side when you swim?

when you swim with bilateral breathing it is tough to stay on your side. you actually spend most of
your time on your stomach. by loping you maximize your side roll. you may not roll well to the
otherside, but hey, at least you are really rolling to one side!

[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Larry,

Stop misquoting me.<<

Colin, calm down. I wasn't quoting you. It was a quote from one of my other debate partners.

Another quote (along the same lines):

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I'm sorry. We'll need to agree to disagree on loping. Lope if it makes you

happy and if you think it makes you a better swimmer.

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I won't teach it and I won't practice it. Before I knew better, I WAS a

loper, from 1966 to 1978 or so. I swim much better and feel much better and am much happier now,
swimming with balance, a long body line and fluent, well-timed movement. I also swam faster
tonight than I did when I gave up loping 25 years ago.<<

So why do Popov, van den Hoogenband, Lezak, Hackett, Peirsol, Evans and many others at the very
top do it? And why are Munz and Phelps faster when they do it than when they didn't do it?

How did all of the above learn to do it?

Has any coach in history ever TAUGHT it?

How many coaches have tried (and succeeded) in extinguishing it?

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

"larry burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems to me after quietly observing this debate for some time, that there is little discussion
about the difference between body position of elite racers AT RACING SPEED vs. training speed
position and focus. (Even at my pathetic times, the hydrodyamics seem to alter when I max out my
kick and really start to crank-head position seems less crucial, I feel like I'm more on top of
the water,etc and a different part (non-analytical) of the brain kicks in). This discussion is
based on racing footage. A question seems to be whether training to lope,e.g., will improve
performance?

I noticed that too! Thanks for pointing it out.

larry burns said:

... RACING SPEED vs. training speed ... Even at my pathetic times, the hydrodyamics seem to alter
when I max out my kick and really start to crank

This is an excellent point, one consistent with my own experience and with my observations of my
daughter, who is just learning to swim. Speed alone solves many problems. When I swim hard, I also
feel like I'm swimming *better*, in the sense of technique and position.

It's possible, however, that the differences we, as ordinary swimmers, are noticing are between
racing and training speeds are larger than the differences experienced by elite swimmers. Their
training speeds are rather fast -- fast enough to have already achieved close-to-optimal body
position, etc. Cranking it up may not alter their dynamics nearly as much as it alters ours.
Just guessing.

Chief S.