Re: Campagnolo skeleton brakes

[email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote in news:em7i6e$6m2$1
@cascade.cs.ubc.ca:

Quoted message said:

What's your point ?? Where else can you drop $120 on a headset other
than a Chris King headset ?? Are you saying that sealed headsets are
good because the most expensive headset on the planet is sealed ??
What have you been smoking THIS WEEK ??

Don,

I put together my old bike in 1983. It has a Chris King headset. I don't
remember what I paid for it, but I'm certain it was much cheaper than
high end open cup headsets of the time. The headset is still solid and
smooth with the original bearings. The bottom bracket is Klein's pressed
in cartridge bearings - they are the originals and I currently have the
chain off the bike for cleaning and while I can't spin the crank for
minutes, it does spin smoothly and there's no excess play. I'm on my
second set of wheels, the first set I sold to a friend who still uses
them, while the "new" set are about 10 year old Hi-E sealed bearing hubs.
Now, just as I don't think the example of your bottom bracket can be
extrapolated to condemn all sealed bearings, my few here are not to imply
that all sealed bearings will last as long without maintenance. But the
point is still that seals offer longer maintenance-free life on average
than without seals.

Perhaps my use of Chris King as an example was a poor choice. But
certainly the price is not due to the bearings. Given the price of Campy
Record of the time, the bearings are a small part of the overall cost.

In any case, I still am curious to know what the disadvantages are to
sealed cartridge bearings of "equivalent" quality when compared to open
cup and cone types. I'm not interested in the bottom of the line
(department store level), but I don't think we need to talk about the
most expensive either (my error in bring up King). What about for bikes
priced around $1-2K?

I wrote this in a previous thread, but got no response, so I'm quoting it
here:

Quoted message said:

You continue to claim that cartridge bearings are inferior to open cup
and cone bearings, yet you don't explain the reason. I have given an
explanation for why I disagree. That is: Sealed bearings offer lower
maintenance and *no* appreciable difference in feel "under normal usage
conditions."

Quoted message said:

Can you please explain the advantages of open cup and cone bearings to
me? If it's only that you can spin them longer when the chain is off,
as I've stated, that's not how I use my bike so it's of no advantage to
me given the extra maintenance required. If there are other advantages,
you have yet to state them.

Cheers,
David

Solvang Cyclist said:

Don,

Quoted message said:

I put together my old bike in 1983. It has a Chris King headset. I don't
remember what I paid for it, but I'm certain it was much cheaper than
high end open cup headsets of the time. The headset is still solid and
smooth with the original bearings.

Your anecdote is not impressive. I bought a TREK 500 bicycle in 1985,
with a cheapo steel Tange headset, which still works fine, was never
ever maintained, and is not pitted. What's the point ?? Are we
competing here for the most impressive anecdoates ?? My headset in
today's dollars costs $100 less than your headset in today's dollars.
Whose anecdote is more impressive now ??

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

[email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Solvang Cyclist said:

Don,

Quoted message said:

I put together my old bike in 1983. It has a Chris King headset. I
don't remember what I paid for it, but I'm certain it was much cheaper
than high end open cup headsets of the time. The headset is still
solid and smooth with the original bearings.

Your anecdote is not impressive. I bought a TREK 500 bicycle in 1985,
with a cheapo steel Tange headset, which still works fine, was never
ever maintained, and is not pitted. What's the point ?? Are we
competing here for the most impressive anecdoates ?? My headset in
today's dollars costs $100 less than your headset in today's dollars.
Whose anecdote is more impressive now ??

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Don,

I'm *really* trying not to get into a flame war with you, but you seem
to be only wanting to be argumentative instead of enlightening me. Why
did you quote my example without also quoting the rest of the paragraph:

Quoted message said:

Now, just as I don't think the example of your bottom bracket can be
extrapolated to condemn all sealed bearings, my few here are not to
imply that all sealed bearings will last as long without maintenance.
But the point is still that seals offer longer maintenance-free life
on average than without seals.

You also ignored:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps my use of Chris King as an example was a poor choice. But
certainly the price is not due to the bearings. Given the price of
Campy Record of the time, the bearings are a small part of the overall

Quoted message said:

cost.

So forget the anecdotes, do you not agree with the following statement
or not?

"Seals offer longer maintenance-free life *ON AVERAGE* than without
seals."

Also, why do you refuse to answer my repeated question? I assure it is
not rhetorical. Others here on r.b.t. have provided me with informative
answers that have changed my mind on other subjects, I'm always open to
learn. But rather than throwing out insults like asking me "what I'm
smoking this week", perhaps you can answer my question, which I will
once again quote here:

Quoted message said:

Can you please explain the advantages of open cup and cone bearings to
me? If it's only that you can spin them longer when the chain is off,
as I've stated, that's not how I use my bike so it's of no advantage
to me given the extra maintenance required. If there are other
advantages, you have yet to state them.

Cheers,
David

Solvang Cyclist said:

[email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote in news:em7i6e$6m2$1
@cascade.cs.ubc.ca:

Quoted message said:

What's your point ?? Where else can you drop $120 on a headset other
than a Chris King headset ?? Are you saying that sealed headsets are
good because the most expensive headset on the planet is sealed ??
What have you been smoking THIS WEEK ??

Don,

I put together my old bike in 1983. It has a Chris King headset. I don't
remember what I paid for it, but I'm certain it was much cheaper than
high end open cup headsets of the time. The headset is still solid and
smooth with the original bearings. The bottom bracket is Klein's pressed
in cartridge bearings - they are the originals and I currently have the
chain off the bike for cleaning and while I can't spin the crank for
minutes, it does spin smoothly and there's no excess play. I'm on my
second set of wheels, the first set I sold to a friend who still uses
them, while the "new" set are about 10 year old Hi-E sealed bearing hubs.
Now, just as I don't think the example of your bottom bracket can be
extrapolated to condemn all sealed bearings, my few here are not to imply
that all sealed bearings will last as long without maintenance. But the
point is still that seals offer longer maintenance-free life on average
than without seals.

It depends on what you call a "seal." The wipers on old Phil hub, for
example, did not seal as well as the labrynth seals on a modern Shimano
hub. Some modern "open bearings" are better sealed than cartridge
bearings. I never found a really well sealed open bearing BB, though,
and use all sealed BBs here in the PNW. I also tired of notched
wrenches and pin spanners. I like my sealed BBs. Other sealed
components are optional. I have a King headset on a racing bike that
sees little rain, and I could have used a $30 Ultegra and been
perfectly happy for the foreseeable future. I only got the King
because it looked cool, and I got the frame free and had money to burn.
-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- I built a custom bike for my father in '77 and rebuilt it for the
first time earlier this year (for resale), and all the old open
bearings were in perfect shape. It helped that my father rode the bike
about three times a year in California sunshine.

Solvang Cyclist said:

[email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Solvang Cyclist said:

Don,
I put together my old bike in 1983. It has a Chris King headset. I
don't remember what I paid for it, but I'm certain it was much cheaper
than high end open cup headsets of the time. The headset is still
solid and smooth with the original bearings.

Your anecdote is not impressive. I bought a TREK 500 bicycle in 1985,
with a cheapo steel Tange headset, which still works fine, was never
ever maintained, and is not pitted. What's the point ?? Are we
competing here for the most impressive anecdoates ?? My headset in
today's dollars costs $100 less than your headset in today's dollars.
Whose anecdote is more impressive now ??

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Don,

I'm *really* trying not to get into a flame war with you, but you seem
to be only wanting to be argumentative instead of enlightening me. Why
did you quote my example without also quoting the rest of the paragraph:

Quoted message said:

Now, just as I don't think the example of your bottom bracket can be
extrapolated to condemn all sealed bearings, my few here are not to
imply that all sealed bearings will last as long without maintenance.
But the point is still that seals offer longer maintenance-free life
on average than without seals.

You also ignored:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps my use of Chris King as an example was a poor choice. But
certainly the price is not due to the bearings. Given the price of
Campy Record of the time, the bearings are a small part of the overall

Quoted message said:

cost.

So forget the anecdotes, do you not agree with the following statement
or not?

"Seals offer longer maintenance-free life *ON AVERAGE* than without
seals."

Also, why do you refuse to answer my repeated question? I assure it is
not rhetorical. Others here on r.b.t. have provided me with informative
answers that have changed my mind on other subjects, I'm always open to
learn. But rather than throwing out insults like asking me "what I'm
smoking this week", perhaps you can answer my question, which I will
once again quote here:

Quoted message said:

Can you please explain the advantages of open cup and cone bearings to
me? If it's only that you can spin them longer when the chain is off,
as I've stated, that's not how I use my bike so it's of no advantage
to me given the extra maintenance required. If there are other
advantages, you have yet to state them.

Cheers,
David

open cup and cone is cheap, particularly in quantity. there's also the
theoretical advantage of angular bearings with lateral load components
to wheel life. this is opposed to cheapo "sealed" bearings that aren't
very well sealed at all and that are designed primarily for radial
loads. but don't let the naysayers bamboozle you. quality sealed
bearings /do/ seal very effectively, and their deep groove design
handles the lateral loading experienced on bike wheels quite easily.

i'm in my second season of wet riding with a sealed bearing mavic cosmos
rear hub. unlike its shimano predecessor, it has not required major
bearing surgery or lubrication replacement. it has required a new pawl,
but i think that was because it was assembled wrong. bearings are still
like butter - no moisture or grit intrusion at all.

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

It depends on what you call a "seal."

Yes, certainly quality seals are required.

Quoted message said:

PS -- I built a custom bike for my father in '77 and rebuilt it for the
first time earlier this year (for resale), and all the old open
bearings were in perfect shape. It helped that my father rode the bike
about three times a year in California sunshine.

Good point: I should note that I certainly don't ride as much as I'd
like, and the riding I do is also in sunny Southern California. But I do
count my average yearly mileage in multiples of thousands, so 20+ years
is not too bad. However, once again to be totally clear: I don't assume
that my experience can be extrapolated to everyone else.

Cheers,
David

Solvang Cyclist said:

[email hidden] (Donald Gillies) wrote in news:em7i6e$6m2$1
@cascade.cs.ubc.ca:

Quoted message said:

What's your point ?? Where else can you drop $120 on a headset other
than a Chris King headset ?? Are you saying that sealed headsets are
good because the most expensive headset on the planet is sealed ??
What have you been smoking THIS WEEK ??

Don,

I put together my old bike in 1983. It has a Chris King headset. I don't
remember what I paid for it, but I'm certain it was much cheaper than
high end open cup headsets of the time. The headset is still solid and
smooth with the original bearings. The bottom bracket is Klein's pressed
in cartridge bearings - they are the originals and I currently have the
chain off the bike for cleaning and while I can't spin the crank for
minutes, it does spin smoothly and there's no excess play. I'm on my
second set of wheels, the first set I sold to a friend who still uses
them, while the "new" set are about 10 year old Hi-E sealed bearing hubs.
Now, just as I don't think the example of your bottom bracket can be
extrapolated to condemn all sealed bearings, my few here are not to imply
that all sealed bearings will last as long without maintenance. But the
point is still that seals offer longer maintenance-free life on average
than without seals.

Perhaps my use of Chris King as an example was a poor choice. But
certainly the price is not due to the bearings. Given the price of Campy
Record of the time, the bearings are a small part of the overall cost.

In any case, I still am curious to know what the disadvantages are to
sealed cartridge bearings of "equivalent" quality when compared to open
cup and cone types.

There are no disadvantages, just no advantages either. makes it easier
to make a hub, cheaper.

I'm not interested in the bottom of the line

Quoted message said:

(department store level), but I don't think we need to talk about the
most expensive either (my error in bring up King). What about for bikes
priced around $1-2K?

I wrote this in a previous thread, but got no response, so I'm quoting it
here:

Quoted message said:

You continue to claim that cartridge bearings are inferior to open cup
and cone bearings, yet you don't explain the reason. I have given an
explanation for why I disagree. That is: Sealed bearings offer lower
maintenance and *no* appreciable difference in feel "under normal usage
conditions."

Quoted message said:

Can you please explain the advantages of open cup and cone bearings to
me?

Smoother, easier to service.

If it's only that you can spin them longer when the chain is off,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as I've stated, that's not how I use my bike so it's of no advantage to
me given the extra maintenance required. If there are other advantages,
you have yet to state them.

Cheers,
David

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you please explain the advantages of open cup and cone bearings to
me?

Quoted message said:

Smoother, easier to service.

Tell me about it !! My MAVIC 501 hubs - the very FIRST set of sealed
hubs that I have ever owned - are STILL clicking under load and the
very experienced LBS has fallen flat trying to diagnose the problem.
I've been through about $45 so far trying to fix one blasted sealed
rear hub ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

> Can you please explain the advantages of open cup and cone bearings to
> me?

Quoted message said:

Smoother, easier to service.

Tell me about it !! My MAVIC 501 hubs - the very FIRST set of sealed
hubs that I have ever owned - are STILL clicking under load and the
very experienced LBS has fallen flat trying to diagnose the problem.
I've been through about $45 so far trying to fix one blasted sealed
rear hub ...

Could the clicking be somehow related to the freewheeling mechanism
(pawls etc.) rather than to the bearings?