training schedule for jan marathon?

(Globaldisc) said:

i like your style anders....ignore the universe of marathon wisdom, blindly assert "it can be done"
with no regard to key info upon which the decision should be based.

This is a classroom case of "the pot calling the kettle black" :-P

[email hidden] (Globaldisc) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...´

Quoted message said:

oh anders my good man. you've basically presented the "exception to the rule" argument. sure,
someone will win the lottery...

IMHO the lottery here is such that there is a very large number of tickets that will win a small
prize and, most importantly, a quite insignificant number of tickets that will read "Go to a PT at
once!". Most tickets won´t win anything, but they only cost a trifle...

Quoted message said:

when you say to this first time marathoner that did 4 hr.-something...."But even with 26 days of
recovery (and limited training) will leave him quite a bit of time to train (and taper) for his
marathon in 10 weeks".

4:30 with gastro problems and cramping.

Quoted message said:

LOL. you don't know the person's age, weight, physical condition....you know nothing other than
their ability to key in some text and post it....and you say this above?

Yes. Unlike you, I didn´t give him any answer at all(1) - I replied to you; what you purported to be
a relevant answer simply had to be lambasted!

(5) I´m usually a nice, helpful guy, but my irritation over your "answer" overpowered any desire I
might`ve had to begin to address his question:-)

Quoted message said:

ya know anders most all training programs for marathoners of all ends of the > spectrum call for
an 18 week program.

What do you assume the poster did before his first marathon? Are you assuming that a 4:30-finisher
cannot have trained adequately?

And do you really insist that after completing a program and running a marathon you´re so deep in
the red that the only sensible, nay, allowable option is to start completely anew? That there is
nothing left over from that training? Or that this must be so for any 4:30-marathoner?

Quoted message said:

i like your style anders....ignore the universe of marathon wisdom, blindly assert "it can be
done" with no regard to key info upon which the decision should be based.

I have to say I really don´t like all aspects of your posting and discussion style: why cannot you
quote-and- reply like normal people and why do you avoid answering straight questions at all or in a
straight manner?

IMHO *you* are ignoring that universe - or occupying an alternative, very small one:-) - by blindly
asserting it cannot/shouldn´t be done with no regard to anything but your own preconceptions. Not to
mention without any attempt to elicit the lacking key info before offering your wisdom.

Please note that I don´t doubt your good intentions - and you probably cannot help your
temperament:-)

I´m afraid that this discussion is beginning to stray away from any possibility of reaching
agreement or even agreement to disagree and is, if continued, in danger of sinking fast into a
mutual dissection of character deficiencies.

You´re welcome to add your comments, though.

Anders

The Frazzzzzzzzz! said:

(Globaldisc) said:

Andrew, anyone...You coming up to do the After the Leaves race this Sunday????
____

Found some nice pix of that race from a couple years ago...(any of you Doug) ?

milanrunning.commrcindk6.htmOpen ↗

Those are some of the worse quality pics I've ever seen on the net. Are we supposed to be able to
make out faces? You can't even tell the men from the woman (although that's a rather common
problem amongst runners anyway.)

Blame the gifs. Why folk insist in trying to display colour photos in gif format I'll never know.

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:32:14 GMT, Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote:

doesn't look

Quoted message said:

like I'm one of a million others is at: nhbungalow.comb2b.jpgOpen ↗

Is that you in the yellow shirt, or the black tank top?

No long runs for four weeks. Long runs on Nov 15/16, Nov 29/30, Dec 14/15, Dec 27/28.

Globaldisc said:

It does not matter how old or experienced the runner
is....the point is the humans should not tackle a second marathon 10 weeks after their first.

I must e-mail an old club mate and tell him that he isn't human. He ran a marathon a month over his
last year with the club. Didn't burn out and is still running marathons back in Korea where he
lives now.

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email.

(Globaldisc) said:

ya know anders most all training programs for marathoners of all ends of the spectrum call for an
18 week program.

From where I sit, "most all" marathon training programs are 10 weeks. Mine is quite exceptionally
long at 12 weeks. Is your "most all" bigger than mine? If you think so, tell me in what sense is it
bigger? The size of the mouth of the trainer who peddles it? Or his wallet? Or feet? Or sidearm?

Everyone here has different experiences. Cultural differences are enormous, even between states of
The Union.

Going on as you are, is like a guy from Florida pontificating to Alaskans that "most all" runners
can do their workout in a singlet all year round. Or an Algerian telling a Finn that he's stupid to
talk about running in snow because "most all" runners never ever see any.

[email hidden] (Globaldisc) wrote:

Excerpt from your first reply to Anders:

Quoted message said:

LOL. you don't know the person's age, weight, physical condition....you know nothing other than
their ability to key in some text and post it....and you say this above? ya know anders most all
training programs for marathoners of all ends of the spectrum call for an 18 week program.

Quoted message said:

i like your style anders....ignore the universe of marathon wisdom, blindly assert "it can be done"
with no regard to key info upon which the decision should be based.

Your ENTIRE reply to original poster:

Quoted message said:

Congrats on the M but you're making a Mistake. You got your first marathon under your belt @4:30
and you want to do it again in 10 weeks? Why?...so you can run 4:45:00 or 5:00:00?

From one site, "Experience shows that marathoners actually benefit from taking one or two seasons
off from running marathons in order to concentrate on anaerobic threshold training and 10K racing
to improve their speed. There is a direct correlation between bringing down your 10K time and
improving your marathon time".
--
Forget about any Marathons. Focus/concentrate on 10Ks and some 1/2Ms and then maybe do it again in
6 months.

Now, I don't see you asking anything whatever about the guy's age, weight, physical condition. Yet
you feel free to rebuke Anders for doing no more than you did.

Can you just decide what you want to say? If you're just trying to wriggle out of a poorly-presented
first reply which got noticed and commented on, then it's not working. You're looking sillier with
each new reply.

But we know you are not silly, so why not just come to the obvious conclusion: you believe the
runner definitely should not do another marathon anytime soon, and Anders believes he could do one
in 10 weeks (not *should*, but could) and that this is all just a question of personal opinion on
pretty thin data?

Globaldisc said:

OK Anders.....just curious on how you will handle this. Doug pointed out it takes 8 weeks for full
recovery due to muscle damage from running a marathon.

I hop your not talking about me I never said that. When I'm in my heavy training cycle I run a
marathon or MORE every other week an it includes 5k+ fett of up and down elevation.

Quoted message said:

It does not matter how old or experienced the runner is....the point is the humans should not
tackle a second marathon 10 weeks after their first.

Simply not true for experienced or old people and I fit both. Even when I was younger and faster I
would do Boston and 6 weeks later Burlington and often do better at Burlington. Global statements
like above are way off the mark. Too many exceptions.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Globaldisc said:

It does not matter how old or experienced the runner
is....the point is the humans should not tackle a second marathon 10 weeks after their first.

Quoted message said:

I must e-mail an old club mate and tell him that he isn't human. He ran a marathon a month over
his last year with the club. Didn't burn out and is still running marathons back in Korea where he
lives now.

Andrew, Timmy is making you look foolish. I suggest a reply TYPED IN YOUR ANGRY VOICE ACCUSING TIMMY
OF GROSS STUPIDITY AND BEING FOREIGN.

After that, you can make an attempt at rational argument interspersed with comments completely
unrated to anything anyone has talked about to date.

Away you go...

Pagliacci.

"apusapus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

That should, of course, read;

'...completely unrelated to anything anyone...'.

That's what happens when you type whilst talking on your mobile.

Pag-thingie <I knew I'd forget how to spell the damn word

apusapus said:

After that, you can make an attempt at rational argument interspersed with comments completely
unrated to anything anyone has talked about to date.

Stop teasing your cousins! Or you'll never get a penny of dear Uncle's estate.

"

Quoted message said:

Andrew, Timmy is making you look foolish.

You should know. A developmentaly delayed protaoza with nucealous damage could make you
appear foolish.

Quoted message said:

I suggest a reply TYPED IN YOUR ANGRY VOICE ACCUSING TIMMY OF GROSS STUPIDITY AND BEING FOREIGN.

Or acting like fraser.

Quoted message said:

After that, you can make an attempt at rational argument interspersed with comments completely
unrated to anything anyone has talked about to date.

Just like fraser.

steve common said:

person tracked chemical evidence of "damage repair systems" activity. It was really suggested

Read: "it wasn't really"

Doug Freese said:

Dot said:

steve common said:

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> I won't point out one female that did 20+ 100's(some very hard ones), and did well in each of
> them, in a single year.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Good 'eavens! And I expect those 100's are milers not 100km's too. Wow.

Not only 100 miles but some run entirely in elevation from 9 to 14 thousand feet.

or Alaska winter in snow where you carry your own gear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ultramarathonworld.comn11no01a.htmlOpen ↗

Note that the record of 20 that she broke had been set the previous year by a 60-yr old male, and
she *only* did 16 that year.

I would assume that's Hans-Dieher Weisshaar.

yep!

Quoted message said:

While I'm pointing to some exceptions with Monica and Hans there are dozens of others that run
these races well about one a month. If their recovery times weren't fast from training and or
racing they would be injured or dead. I will agree that the elites(top 10) do race less often and
I'm sure that's to allow some additional recovery.

One of the things I've noticed about this group vs others is that some here (excluding lurkers since
I don't know what they do) tend to focus on speed as the *only* goal while in other groups, they
focus on training to enjoy running on a continuing basis and finish events uninjured. Multiple-hour
(3-6 hrs) training runs are looked upon with excitement at the adventure rather than sure injury
running that long outside a race. BUT they've put in the time over the years to build up to that -
not necessarily in races, but just running.

Dot nope, I'm not anywhere near there yet

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

[email hidden] (Globaldisc) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

OK Anders.....just curious on how you will handle this. Doug pointed out it takes 8 weeks for full
recovery due to muscle damage from running a marathon.

It was Steve who said it, actually - and I don´t have any argument with it. It´s just that this
doesn´t mean that one cannot commence anything called "training" before the eight weeks are over or,
if one does, the net effect cannot be positive.

Quoted message said:

You've said the original poster "only" requested a "wish" to run a second marathon 10 weeks after
his first

Yes, I´m pretty sure he didn´t mention anything about doing a third marathon ten weeks after the
second and so on ad absurdum:-)

He didn´t express a particular wish to improve his time, either.

Quoted message said:

and have also said they have plenty of time to recover, train, and taper over > that 10 weeks span
of time. Again, you asserted this ignorant to knowledge > of the person's age, condition, etc.

"Quite a bit" of time, actually.

Something like 4/10 weeks for the recovery ("no hard running"😉, 3/10 for the "active" training and
3/10 for the taper (which wouldn´t be bereft of any "training" whatsoever).

But again, I have a wholly different idea about who is the assertive and the ignorant one in
this thread:-)

Quoted message said:

Care to do the math and layout the schedule (which would be the answer to the person's
question). ?

In any case not before the poster re-appears:-)

But, in principle, should I still feel confident about his chances after learning more about him and
his prior training, the schedule I´d suggest wouldn´t have to be radically different from the last
six weeks of the program he´d done for the first marathon.

Quoted message said:

So the guy heals/recovers over 8 weeks, has an opportunity to train for a week/7 days to build up
mileage/capacity...then enter his taper the final week before his second marathon? LOL.

Anything to see you smile, Andrew:-) But aren´t you being a bit, what´s the word, disingenuous here?

Quoted message said:

Anders,...the issue is not the person's determination,

I haven´t give a hoot about anyone´s determination here, and I wouldn´t advise anyone to run any
kind of marathon in any manner if I thought that completing it would seem to require determination
in excess of what is "normal".

Quoted message said:

it's their physiology...and it's on that basis that the person's "wish" is ill-advised. It does
not matter how old or experienced the runner is....

This is the first point on which it had become annoyingly obvious that we couldn´t even seem to
manage to disagree; the other is what kind of runners the group of 4:30 first- time marathoners can
(or cannot) be expected to contain and the third on what is (or is not) "a universal point of
agreement, 99% of the coaches/trainers".

Quoted message said:

I don't expect you to reply and lay out a feasible training schedule just as I don't expect you to
go over Niagara Falls and survive.....oops!....someone in fact did do that....so maybe there's a
chance you too will educate us all on the 10 week training program between a 1st and 2nd Marathon.
(but I'm not counting on it).

Normally, I´d expect a polite (I think) declaration of no further interest to to pursue a dead-end
discussion to be so accepted - but in this particular case, I´m willing to attribute your insistence
to the very special nervous and mental state most first-time (and not only first-time) marathoners
find themselves in the last few days:-)

Anders

(Anders Lustig) said:

Quoted message said:

I don't expect you to reply and lay out a feasible training schedule just as I don't expect you
to go over Niagara Falls and survive.

...

Quoted message said:

ormally, I´d expect a polite (I think) declaration of no further interest to to pursue a dead-end
discussion to be so accepted -

Could do worse than to copy down Irina's 5-weeks-between-two-marathons. Supposing 4 runs per week.
From "Marathon pour tous" by Irina Kazakova
(2:30 marathon) and Bruno Cavelier, her husband (2:35 marathon)

Sun 1st MARATHON

Week after 1st Marathon Tue Full session of stretching, 40' recovery pace Thu Rest, massage if
possible Sat Full session of stretching, 30' endurance (LSD) Sun Rest

2nd week Tue Full session of stretching, 40' recovery pace Thu Rest, sauna if possible Sat Full
session of stretching, 40' recovery pace Sun Full session of stretching, 50' endurance (LSD)

3rd week Tue 30' recovery pace, Full session of stretching 30' constant acceleration from LSD to 10k
pace Thu Full session of stretching, 50' recovery pace Sat 30' recovery pace, 30' just under MP Sun
1:20 LSD, full session of stretching

4th week Tue 3 x 2000m just under HM pace/1000m recovery jog 2 x 1000m just under HM pace/ 500m
recovery jog Thu Full session of stretching, 50' recovery pace Sat 30' recovery pace, 30' just under
MP Sun 1:20 LSD, full session of stretching

5th week Tue 40' recovery pace or complete rest Wed 2x1000m just under MP/500m jog 2x500m at
MP/500m jog (optional) Sat 20' recovery, full session of stretching 5x100m MP/100m recovery jog Sun
2nd MARATHON