All-rounder frame wanted

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ozark Bicycle said:

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

> -snip much-
>> Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>> I suppose all of you new
>>>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
>>>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>>> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
>>> Russell. Can the [censored].
> [email hidden] wrote:
>> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
>> is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
>> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
>> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
>> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
>> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
>> bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
>> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
>> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
>> defect.
A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote:
> And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
> the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
> rebuilding a worn DA STi.
> We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
> without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
or an overly complex component. YMMV.

I think you're saying, 'Ergos may be pick of the litter but the field is
a bunch of dogs.'. OK, I can't say you are wrong about that.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Quoted message said:

If Modolo, SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo can't/won't make an integrated
lever as dependable as a 1983 DA-6 SIS, why don't you just make one,
dominate the category and make a bazillion dollars?

Quoted message said:

I'm not making that sorta claim. It's entirely possible, even likely,
that failure is inherent in such a needlessly complex shift mechanism.
If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
essentially unserviceable.

IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.

Shimano sells barcons. Campy sells barcons. Endless numbers of cruddy
component companies (think Falcon and Microshift) sell DT shifters. The
used market is afloat in the things with any number of clicks from zero
to nine (nine makes ten, as I only ever remember after trying to find
the extra one on whatever shifter I'm playing with off of a bike).

No less a maker than Trek themselves (Their slogan: "Ignore Lance: it
was TOTALLY about the bike!"😉 offers the Trek 520 with barcons. The
consumer is not bereft.

And yet.

Ask Mike Jacobusky how well the 520 sells. He mentioned it previously
(paraphrased: the biggest problem with selling it is the barcons...).

Do you know why people like brifters? They're fun! They're fun when
you're mock-sprinting against your friends, they're fun when you're
real-sprinting in a real race (by which I mean one in which first prize
is a box of Powerbars), and they're fun just to use from stoplight to
stoplight. Considering how "seriously" most "serious" bikes get used,
It's nice that they're fun.

As a value proposition, any new bike is a loser. The real deal is to buy
whatever "used ten times, then hung in the garage" bike you can find
most cheaply, probably something about two decades old these days.

Such a machine is no worse than the latest thing off the rack, and far
cheaper, reliability wise. A fanatical rider might change out the rear
wheel for a handbuilt freewheel wheel, And they might update the brakes
or derailers if deemed necessary. And then go ride.

I know this route: I ride a bike made before I was tall enough to ride
it, and I've ridden one older than me. They work. They're fine.

And yet I race on a bike with Veloce brifters, I CX on a bike with 105
brifters, and my underused MTB has XT triggers (9 speed for the road
bikes, and 8 speed for the MTB; cheap + used = happy me).

Heck, old rigid MTBs are both cheaper and tougher than old road bikes. I
picked a Univega with 7-speed trigger-shifter drivetrain (STX end to
end) out of the trash yesterday. It needs new shifter cable housings,
because the shifting isn't quite as crisp as I would like. I could
downgrade it to get more reliable shifters, but I don't think I will.
Trigger shifters reduce the brainload and increase the fun when riding
in traffic, and that's what the next user of that bike will do.

How reliable are modern drivetrains? Plenty reliable. And they're a lot
of fun.

What I hope I'm saying is that there are good reasons most riders opt
for push-button shifting, even when it means trading reliability. That's
because for most riders, they either won't reach the life limits of or
maintenance cycle of STI or Campy shifters, or they will happily pay the
upkeep to continue having fun (and, of course, the expense of that one
lost ride when the shifter craps out).

The good news is that you have not been pushed out of the market. New
lever shifters from both C and S are only a bike shop (or a web site)
away, and used ones are available from fine garage sales everywhere, as
well as less mercurial retail channels.

So what's the problem?

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ozark Bicycle said:

A Muzi said:

-snip gear lever discussion

Quoted message said:

On May 9, 8:29 am, "[email hidden]"
> I started with 9 speed
> Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
> Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
> getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.

Ozark Bicycle said:

But, if you want to "upgrade" to Campy 10, the Ergos need to be
"converted" from 9 to 10. and, it's a one way street, no more using
those 9sp cassettes.

-snip gratuitously rude-

???

Quoted message said:

A Campagnolo Ten ergo can shift a nine with no difficulties. Make sure
the limit screw obviates spoke mating.

I allowed this to become Campy 9/10 specific, mea culpa. My point was
that brifters make drivetrain changes all the more complex and costly.
In both the rear and the front. Not in all cases in all brands. But
all too often.

Yeah, fair point. I'm writing this because I wrote a longer screed
elsewhere on this thread, and it wandered a bit.

Brifters are an increase in cost and complexity for the drivetrain, but
they make shifting more fun.

That's all. That's it. Bikes like the bikes we like are mostly bought
for fun, and integrated shifting is more fun.

Embrace the fun,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

PiledHIgher said:

You obviously don't remember when you started cycling and taking
the hands off the bars to use the downtube shifter was a scary
proposition.

Hm...kids typically learn cycling on bicycles without shifters, and
riding one handed is the most natural thing to do for them after
rather short time...

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

PiledHIgher said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You obviously don't remember when you started cycling and taking the
hands off the bars to use the downtube shifter was a scary
proposition.

It was?

Greg

--
The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

Ozark Bicycle said:

What it *is* is the much more frequent failure of
a component category (shift levers) where failure
once was exceedingly rare.
IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
or an overly complex component. YMMV.

Yaah, a product that both beginners and some expereinced cyclists in
extremely demanding conditions (racers) love is poor design.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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On Thu, 10 May 2007 02:05:09 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Oh right, I forgot about the best NYC apartment bike-project ever:

http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1300

He built a wind tunnel big enough to fit a bike and rider in his
apartment.

First thought: that has to be the biggest apartment in NYC short of some
plutocratic penthouses.

He uses part of that as a photo study, so it's bigger than average.
But yeah, Andy makes a nice living and has a nice space.

Quoted message said:

Best comment:

Once again, you provide the rest of us with an example we can point to
when our wives/girlfriends/significant others complain about buying a
new bike, or another set of wheels. We can always just direct her
attention your way, and say "Honey, at least I am not doing [Insert
Andy's Latest Project Here], this takes up 1/10th the space that does."

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Ozark Bicycle said:

On May 9, 2:30 pm, "[email hidden]"

<[email hidden]> wrote:

<snipped>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I suppose all of you new
> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
> on bicycles used to be a common thing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
Russell. Can the [censored].

Quoted message said:

Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
is some kind of unbelievable experience?

Not _unbelievable_, but _unnecessary_, caused by the poor design of an
unneeded degree of complexity. But I guess *you* weren't around back
when shift lever failure was practically unheard of.

I dealt with friction stem and downtube shifters for many years.
Having to srew in the outer wingnut to get the dang things to hold.
Or on ones without the wingnut you had to remember to get out the
screw driver and do it before or during a ride when the shifter would
not hold its position. You seem to forget this very common
disfunction with friction shifters. I remember it very well.

I'm aware Simplex made the ratchet downtube shifters. And Suntour had
ratchet bar end shifters. I think it was somewhat common for pros
riding Campagnolo to have Simplex downtube shifters because the
ratchet function eliminated the too tight, too loose problem with
friction shifters. Seems the pros knew friction shifters were [censored].

I'll take the every 5 year rebuilding of Ergo levers over the daily
hassle of friction shifters not staying in gear if easy to shift, or
staying in gear if you tighten them up so much they are danged hard to
shift.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you truely have
overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
bike.

Utter [censored].

Quoted message said:

But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
defect.

Shift levers that routinely fail are of poor design. The fact that one
such poor design (Ergo) is repairable and another poor design (STI) is
only disposable does not change that fact.

Air nailers are more complex than regular hammers. Break down more.
Costlier to fix. I would not want to build a house without an air
nailer. It has definite advantages over the normal nailer. Ergo has
advantages for me over downtube shifters. And over bar end shifters
too. I like bar end shifters though and use them on the touring
bike. I will happily put up with the extra complexity and maintenance
of Ergo shifters over the other choices.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

I dealt with friction stem and downtube shifters for many years.
Having to srew in the outer wingnut to get the dang things to hold.
Or on ones without the wingnut you had to remember to get out the
screw driver and do it before or during a ride when the shifter would
not hold its position. You seem to forget this very common
disfunction with friction shifters. I remember it very well.

Some down tube shifters just work; and never go out of adjustment.
I took apart a set of fifteen year old Shimano friction shifters
on a lark a few months ago after about eight years. Turns out they
did not need cleaning or greasing. My nine speed down tube click
shifters are only about five years old, so I cannot speak for
their longevity; but I can say that they have not gone out of
adjustment. .

--
Michael Press

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ryan Cousineau said:

Shimano sells barcons. Campy sells barcons. Endless numbers of cruddy
component companies (think Falcon and Microshift) sell DT shifters. The
used market is afloat in the things with any number of clicks from zero
to nine (nine makes ten, as I only ever remember after trying to find
the extra one on whatever shifter I'm playing with off of a bike).

I am good at putting effective search criteria into google, but
have failed to find sites offering down tube shifters except for
Shimano Dura Ace.

--
Michael Press

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael Press said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ryan Cousineau said:

Shimano sells barcons. Campy sells barcons. Endless numbers of cruddy
component companies (think Falcon and Microshift) sell DT shifters. The
used market is afloat in the things with any number of clicks from zero
to nine (nine makes ten, as I only ever remember after trying to find
the extra one on whatever shifter I'm playing with off of a bike).

I am good at putting effective search criteria into google, but
have failed to find sites offering down tube shifters except for
Shimano Dura Ace.

Ultegra 8, which also work with 7, available from Sheldon.

Record bar end shifters are the DT shifters without the DT mount, so you
can put them on whatever campy DT mount you can scrounge.

http://www.cycletrack.net/bikes/racing/thread389.html

The really low-end brands are likely sold entirely to the OEM market,
but if you really wanted to buy small numbers of mediocre shifters, you
could probably be accommodated. I would commend you to buy used Shimanos
instead.

All I'm saying is that anyone who actually wants DT shifters has widely
available commercial options.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos