Good wheels

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

landotter said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble
> > >> understanding how twine can be involved....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >> --

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should
> > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the
> > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats
> > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using
> > leather brake pads and wooden rims?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Yes, and use them humorlessly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about
this stuff than do their critics. You, for example.

Quoted message said:

Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon?

You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to
make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out.

And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride
Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type"😉 bikes. They've all got good senses of
humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd,
who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the
world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep
going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend
a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with.

A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I
went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses
in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10
speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with
a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I
still don't get it- to have good company on a ride.

Quoted message said:

I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy
bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions
about certain bits of gear.

Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with
your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into
over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I
like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are
this year.

Quoted message said:

It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what
I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop
brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead
push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive
saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and
redness.

On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have
a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has
really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use.

Quoted message said:

Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great
stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy-
craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary
technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit
some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in
their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you
must obey.

That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out.
You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can
afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get
from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with
the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he
ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the
products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have
I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He
talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's
his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be
wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them,
not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so
I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he
believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of
any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's
no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride
bikes came about because of him.

Joe

In article <[email hidden]>,

landotter said:

Chalo said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

It wasn't "the weight weenie attitude" so much as the ready
availability of comfy, non-fussy saddles that also happened to be
lighter *and* less expensive. Saddles like the classic Selle
Italia Turbo, the San Marco Concor, Regal and Rolls and others
from Avocet, etc.

Those are all horribly narrow compared even to a B17, let alone a
B66.

The part of the B17 that you can actually sit on is as narrow--around
13cm on the Flyer I've got here. And if you try to slide back and use
the rear of the saddle you hit the rivets.

Have you got a B.17 Standard or a B.17N? The latter is a couple cm
narrower. I checked my Pros; my ischial tuberosity dents are about 9 cm
center to center, so for me 13 cm would be plenty of room. I can sit
about 3 cm in front of the rear stretcher (the thing the top is riveted
to) and not feel the metal at all, and be perfectly comfortable. At the
same point, the B.17 Standard I have is a couple cm wider than the Pros,
which might be why it's not as comfortable to me at the Pros are.

Brooks saddles may just not be for you. Just like Flites aren't for me.
Does that mean they are [censored]? Nope. We have to be careful about
inflating our personal experiences into universal judgments, something
that is all too common in human nature.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

landotter said:

Chalo said:

Ozark Bicycle wrote:

Quoted message said:

> Tim McNamara wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > While you may find this hard to believe, Brooks saddles are
> > very comfortable for many people- perhaps millions of people,
> > given how long Brooks has been in business. If the saddles
> > were such [censored] as you say, market forces would have driven
> > the company out of business. As it was, the weight-weeny
> > attitude almost did put them out of business a little over 10
> > years ago.

Quoted message said:

> It wasn't "the weight weenie attitude" so much as the ready
> availability of comfy, non-fussy saddles that also happened to
> be lighter *and* less expensive. Saddles like the classic Selle
> Italia Turbo, the San Marco Concor, Regal and Rolls and others
> from Avocet, etc.

Quoted message said:

Those are all horribly narrow compared even to a B17, let alone a
B66.

The part of the B17 that you can actually sit on is as
narrow--around 13cm on the Flyer I've got here. And if you try to
slide back and use the rear of the saddle you hit the rivets.

You imply a person cannot sit on the rivets. Why can't you sit on
the rivets? You and Tim make this odd claim of Brooks saddle being
narrow because the rivets are back there.

Nope, not me. I'm the pro-Brooks guy in this exchange. I find 'em
plenty wide, in fact I prefer the slightly narrower Pros. The rivets on
my 30 year old Pro got a bit irritating as the leather had finally
stretched away from them a bit and they were sitting up proud. I peened
them down around the edges and once again comfy as can be.

Quoted message said:

On all of my Brooks saddles the rivets are highly polished. Meaning
I've been sitting on them and sliding all over them. Does not seem
to bother me a bit. I've done 600km brevets straight through on the
Brooks Professional with no discomfort.

Almost ditto, except I stopped for a snooze. 400 km straight through
was fine.

Quoted message said:

If you and Tim's argument has any merit then no one could sit on a
curb or a rock or a stadium aluminum seat because they are just as
hard as the Brooks rivets. People sit for hours on stadium seats and
aren't paralyzed or harmed.

Again, not my argument. I like Brooks saddles and have 'em on all but
one of my bikes (which has a rather similar but much lighter Lepper
Voyageur).

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

landotter said:

On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <[email hidden]>
wrote:
> Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob
> type, and just read through two threads about Mavic wheels.
> Apparently y'all are accustomed to being called [censored] over
> here. My developementally disabled clients might have a bone to
> pick with that diagnosis! Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day
> tourer is rapidly evolving into a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast,
> rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty good idea what the
> opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other
> $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward
> traditional handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I
> think racy low-spoke wheels might be an interesting choice for
> a bike like this.

Quoted message said:

By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new
bike exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as
well! Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but
beautifully forged in our small sister factory in Japan!

It's hard to tell if you are trying to make a point here and, if
so, what it might be.

Quoted message said:

Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a
lot of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only
makes it hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with
sand while wet and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory
and tactile discomfort--something that will offer tremendous
exclusivity compared to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS
sells.

There's something wrong with Tressostar? It and similar products
have been in use for a long time and work fine. Maybe you
preferred the Grab-On foam handlebar covers that were so popular in
the late 1970s. I installed a lot of that [censored] on Ross bikes at the
shop. Or maybe you- like me- prefer spending $20 for faux cork tape
that shreds on contact... oops, my bike fell over- another $20 for
new tape.

$20? I get my cork tape on sale cheap from Nashbar and Performance.
Even oddly colored genuine Cinelli cork tape can be had every now and
then from Nashbar for $3 a roll or so. I have some yellow splotchy
color on the brevet bike now. And a few rolls of green splotchy
color in reserve. And some Sampson red/white colored stuff too.
I've considered putting on the foam grips and covering it with tape
to get some extra cushion. Going to try out the Aztec foam stuff
since its made for that purpose. I'm looking for a bit more comfort
in the drops than double cork can provide when I get into the 200-400
mile range in a day.

About 20 people attempted the Rochester 600k last weekend. Tailwinds
both days. More than a few came down from the Twin cities.

I was sorry to have missed it. I did the 200 and 300 in Rochester this
year, but can't go to PBP so I wasn't motivated enough to do the 400 and
600. The first two brevets were really awful with terrible winds (50
mph gusts during the 200, it was hard to even stand up let alone ride);
I got a bit of sunstroke on the 300 and took a couple of shortcuts back
to Rochester- I have never felt worse on a bike as I did that day.
Sheesh.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Tim McNamara said:

I used Tressostar for many years and had no complaints. It's not very
padded, of course, hence my preference for cork, but OTOH cloth bar tape
is much more secure when your hands are sweaty on a 95 degree day or in
the rain. Shellac is best used when you don't use aero brake levers; I
use areo levers because I've got hands like hams and non-aero levers are
far too small for comfort- and therefore I don't shellac bar tape. If
you do shellac bar tape, the twine thing is unnecessary. I don't get
the twine thing.

Okay. Why shellac bar tape? Why not with aero brake levers?

I went back to cloth tape because the spongy bar tape
reduced circulation in my hands, and they would go numb.
Also because the spongy stuff is slippery when wet as you say.
Some prefer the shock absorbing tape. I get by with the
good shock absorbing at the ends of the drops and on the hoods.

--
Michael Press

Ozark Bicycle said:

...However, IMO, most of the RivenSchticks look 'forced' and
'faux' to me, like a cheap 'repli-car' (remember those fake MG T-
series bodies mounted on VeeDub pans?). The Cutsey poo names (Saluki?...

You are not welcome in Carbondale, Illinois.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

In article
<[email hidden]>
,
Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Jun 21, 10:37 pm, "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

landotter said:

On Jun 21, 2:25 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> How to be a "rugged individualist", Riv-style:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

> Don't forget the twine!

Quoted message said:

> Never, ever, ever, criticize Chairman gRant
Every single Rivendell I've
seen built up around here has had the twine job on the bars. It's not
functional, but it's ugly--how clever! But the sheep lap it up.

Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding how
twine can be involved....

--

Quoted message said:

From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this:

http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs

or, for the cautious;

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2sgxxs

I tape from the stem to the drop ends. When I tried the
other direction the hold down at the stem end of the
job always nagged at me, looking kind of unfinished.
Hemp twine would do the same thing.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

landotter said:

Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great
stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy-
craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary
technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit some
folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in their
catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you must
obey.

Oh no, you ride it because that is what you _want_ to
ride. If you would simply attend the meetings, this
would all be made clear to you, brother.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

landotter said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter <[email hidden]>
> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as
> >always--they look great, but feel like [censored] and are fussy and
> >inconsistent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding and
> you'll have a lifetime companion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a Brooks,
either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just not the saddle for
you. I find the Brooks Pro to be comfortable out of the box, maybe a
ride or three is necessary to dial it in. The Brooks Pro S is my wife's
favorite saddle (as in, she dislikes sitting one any other saddle).

Quoted message said:

I've put 10K on a couple of B17s and 5K on this particular Flyer and
waiting for the comfort to set in. The B17s were bearable, but never
comfy. It's just a horrible design to begin with. There is only one
place of a single square cm for each ischia to find comfort in. There
is the idiotic rail in back with the double idiotic exposed rivets.
You either slide forward, or tilt up the horn enough to ovalize your
urethra. Firmness changes according to the day's humidity. Seriously--
I'm at the point where I hate these things. I tried for a couple
months to get rid of my last Brooks, this particular Flyer by flogging
it on Craigslist for very very cheap, but fate means for me to have it
on my beer bike to remind me of what overrated vintage garbage is.
Well designed nylon saddle shells covered thinly in a mm of foam or
two and some leather are so far superior to Brooks, it's not even
funny.

You do not like them. Your generalizations are unfounded.

I've ridden the things thousand of miles and have specific complaints
which are based in reality. What are you smoking?

In article
<[email hidden]>,

landotter said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

landotter said:

On Jun 21, 7:37 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter <[email hidden]>
> > wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as
> > >always--they look great, but feel like [censored] and are fussy and
> > >inconsistent.

Quoted message said:

> > Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding and
> > you'll have a lifetime companion.

Quoted message said:

> If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a Brooks,
> either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just not the saddle for
> you. I find the Brooks Pro to be comfortable out of the box, maybe a
> ride or three is necessary to dial it in. The Brooks Pro S is my wife's
> favorite saddle (as in, she dislikes sitting one any other saddle).

Quoted message said:

I've put 10K on a couple of B17s and 5K on this particular Flyer and
waiting for the comfort to set in. The B17s were bearable, but never
comfy. It's just a horrible design to begin with. There is only one
place of a single square cm for each ischia to find comfort in. There
is the idiotic rail in back with the double idiotic exposed rivets.
You either slide forward, or tilt up the horn enough to ovalize your
urethra. Firmness changes according to the day's humidity. Seriously--
I'm at the point where I hate these things. I tried for a couple
months to get rid of my last Brooks, this particular Flyer by flogging
it on Craigslist for very very cheap, but fate means for me to have it
on my beer bike to remind me of what overrated vintage garbage is.
Well designed nylon saddle shells covered thinly in a mm of foam or
two and some leather are so far superior to Brooks, it's not even
funny.

You do not like them. Your generalizations are unfounded.

I've ridden the things thousand of miles and have specific complaints
which are based in reality. What are you smoking?

You.

You have your experience. These generalizations you
make from your experience are invalid. It is important
to distinguish your experience from things that are not
your experience. There is no science in the
generalizations you make, only your experience.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

landotter said:

Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great
stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy-
craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary
technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit some
folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in their
catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you must
obey.

Oh no, you ride it because that is what you _want_ to
ride. If you would simply attend the meetings, this
would all be made clear to you, brother.

And, if time and distance keep you from the meetings, there is always
The Reader to keep you on the straight and narrow.

Quoted message said:

Have you got a B.17 Standard or a B.17N? The latter is a couple cm
narrower. I checked my Pros; my ischial tuberosity dents are about 9 cm
center to center, so for me 13 cm would be plenty of room. I can sit
about 3 cm in front of the rear stretcher (the thing the top is riveted
to) and not feel the metal at all, and be perfectly comfortable. At the
same point, the B.17 Standard I have is a couple cm wider than the Pros,
which might be why it's not as comfortable to me at the Pros are.

Brooks saddles may just not be for you. Just like Flites aren't for me.
Does that mean they are [censored]? Nope. We have to be careful about
inflating our personal experiences into universal judgments, something
that is all too common in human nature.

----------
I have a B-17 with a couple thousand miles on it, and I'm still trying to
get use to it. One thing it's hard to set up, and people should know that
before they buy one, that the fore and aft movement is tiny, so I had to buy
an FSA seatpost with some serious setback to make it work. Also it's
extremely slick, so that gets some getting use to, I don't know if that goes
away or not. Also someone commented that there weren't enough riding
positions on it, I find the opposite, too many. But my riding style is
unorthodox, as I'm always moving around on a saddle. On my prolink I had
two positions, front, back, on the brooks I have four, with middle-back,
middle forward. My big concern is a rain ride. It doesn't rain much here
in the desert, but when it does it's usually a downpour, and if I was
unlucky to be caught in such a situation, how do Brooks hold up in big rain
(not just a sprinkle).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Brooks saddles had all but disappeared,
but now I am seeing them regularly again.
Is this the hobbit effect?

--
Michael Press

I kinda doubt it. I think it's parallel to the New Beetle/ PT Cruiser/
New '69 Mustang effect, and it's in tandem with the fixie effect,
which is kind of a retro back-to-the-simple-days thing itself. Of
course, Brooks saddles being anything but simple to care for,
something got lost in translation.

---------
In my case it was when I started doing long-distance riding (<150 miles),
and started getting bad saddle sores. That's when you start seriously
looking for a solution. Maybe people get them also for century rides, if
you're seeing a lot of them. One woman told me, that a bike shop told her
it was a solution to the age-old butt soreness problem. But that may be an
overkill, as it takes a few years to get your butt use to a bike at any
distance.

On Jun 23, 5:49 am, "Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have you got a B.17 Standard or a B.17N? The latter is a couple cm
narrower. I checked my Pros; my ischial tuberosity dents are about 9 cm
center to center, so for me 13 cm would be plenty of room. I can sit
about 3 cm in front of the rear stretcher (the thing the top is riveted
to) and not feel the metal at all, and be perfectly comfortable. At the
same point, the B.17 Standard I have is a couple cm wider than the Pros,
which might be why it's not as comfortable to me at the Pros are.

Quoted message said:

Brooks saddles may just not be for you. Just like Flites aren't for me.
Does that mean they are [censored]? Nope. We have to be careful about
inflating our personal experiences into universal judgments, something
that is all too common in human nature.

----------
I have a B-17 with a couple thousand miles on it, and I'm still trying to
get use to it.

That's an interesting, unique-to-the-Brooks-fad thing, ain't it? If
this were any other saddle, it would have been sold off, tossed in a
box or in a landfill, because people don't give those other saddles "a
couple thousand miles" to "get use to", do they?

Quoted message said:

One thing it's hard to set up, and people should know that
before they buy one, that the fore and aft movement is tiny, so I had to buy
an FSA seatpost with some serious setback to make it work. Also it's
extremely slick, so that gets some getting use to, I don't know if that goes
away or not. Also someone commented that there weren't enough riding
positions on it, I find the opposite, too many. But my riding style is
unorthodox, as I'm always moving around on a saddle. On my prolink I had
two positions, front, back, on the brooks I have four, with middle-back,
middle forward. My big concern is a rain ride. It doesn't rain much here
in the desert, but when it does it's usually a downpour, and if I was
unlucky to be caught in such a situation, how do Brooks hold up in big rain
(not just a sprinkle).

Ozark Bicycle said:

Callistus Valerius said:

I have a B-17 with a couple thousand miles on it, and I'm still trying to
get use to it.

That's an interesting, unique-to-the-Brooks-fad thing, ain't it? If
this were any other saddle, it would have been sold off, tossed in a
box or in a landfill, because people don't give those other saddles "a
couple thousand miles" to "get use to", do they?

Leather breaks in; plastic breaks down. I wouldn't give an
uncomfortable saddle that long an interview, but the leather ones do
change for the better over time.

You wouldn't toss a pair of $300 mountaineering boots because they
were hard and uncomfortable at first, would you?

Chalo

Chalo said:

Leather breaks in; plastic breaks down.

In my experience, leather stretches or tears, is inconsistent
depending on the humidity, rivets pop out and rust, is rain averse and
smells like a sickly horse; nylon, like the Buddha, just is. ;-).

Quoted message said:

Joe Bernard said:

Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and
just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are
accustomed to being called [censored] over here. My developementally
disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis!
Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into
a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty
good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other
$500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional
handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke
wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this.

landotter said:

By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike
exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well!
Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged
in our small sister factory in Japan!

Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot
of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it
hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet
and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile
discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared
to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells.

I've been unavoidably away from RBT and just got back - Thanks for a
hearty laugh, Landotter!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Joe Bernard said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

landotter said:

On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson"
> > <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble
> > > >> understanding how twine can be involved....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >> --

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should
> > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the
> > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats
> > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using
> > > leather brake pads and wooden rims?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Yes, and use them humorlessly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about
> this stuff than do their critics. You, for example.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon?

Quoted message said:

You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to
make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out.

Quoted message said:

And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride
Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type"😉 bikes. They've all got good senses of
humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd,
who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the
world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep
going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend
a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with.

Quoted message said:

A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I
went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses
in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10
speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with
a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I
still don't get it- to have good company on a ride.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy
bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions
about certain bits of gear.

Quoted message said:

Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with
your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into
over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I
like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are
this year.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what
I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop
brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead
push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive
saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and
redness.

Quoted message said:

On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have
a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has
really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great
stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy-
craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary
technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit
some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in
their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you
must obey.

Quoted message said:

That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out.
You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can
afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get
from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with
the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he
ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the
products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have
I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He
talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's
his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be
wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them,
not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so
I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he
believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of
any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's
no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride
bikes came about because of him.

Balderdash! Such bikes existed long before Petersen wrote his first
paragraph of folksy spoon fed hype for Bridgestone (I have one, built
in ~1975), and have continued to exist all along. Examples would be
the "touring" and "sport/touring" bikes long made and sold by
Cannondale, Novara, Trek and others.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Joe Bernard said:

On Jun 22, 9:53 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson"
> > > <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble
> > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > >> --

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should
> > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the
> > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats
> > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using
> > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Yes, and use them humorlessly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about
> > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to
make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride
Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type"😉 bikes. They've all got good senses of
humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd,
who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the
world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep
going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend
a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I
went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses
in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10
speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with
a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I
still don't get it- to have good company on a ride.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy
> bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions
> about certain bits of gear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with
your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into
over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I
like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are
this year.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what
> I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop
> brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead
> push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive
> saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and
> redness.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have
a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has
really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great
> stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy-
> craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary
> technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit
> some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in
> their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you
> must obey.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out.
You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can
afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get
from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with
the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he
ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the
products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have
I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He
talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's
his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be
wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them,
not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so
I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he
believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of
any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's
no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride
bikes came about because of him.

Balderdash! Such bikes existed long before Petersen wrote his first
paragraph of folksy spoon fed hype for Bridgestone (I have one, built
in ~1975), and have continued to exist all along. Examples would be
the "touring" and "sport/touring" bikes long made and sold by
Cannondale, Novara, Trek and others.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool
road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are
purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti-
braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own
category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought
low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I
don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten
years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't
exactly make a trend.

And speaking of wheels[!], anybody run Easton Circuits?

Joe

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Brooks saddles had all but disappeared,
but now I am seeing them regularly again.
Is this the hobbit effect?

--
Michael Press

I kinda doubt it. I think it's parallel to the New Beetle/ PT Cruiser/
New '69 Mustang effect, and it's in tandem with the fixie effect,
which is kind of a retro back-to-the-simple-days thing itself. Of
course, Brooks saddles being anything but simple to care for,
something got lost in translation.

---------
In my case it was when I started doing long-distance riding (<150 miles),
and started getting bad saddle sores. That's when you start seriously
looking for a solution. Maybe people get them also for century rides, if
you're seeing a lot of them. One woman told me, that a bike shop told her
it was a solution to the age-old butt soreness problem. But that may be an
overkill, as it takes a few years to get your butt use to a bike at any
distance.

I do not go long distance. Have always used a stretched
leather saddle, so I cannot compare them with anything
else. I like the shock absorbing quality.

--
Michael Press