Clip and Clipless Pedals Illegal on New York State Roadways!?

Daniel Norton said:

How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and Traffic
Law Section 1233:

§ 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any bicycle,
coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board, sled, or
toy
vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
being
operated upon a roadway.

(i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)

You can't hitch yourself onto a passing truck, really, is what that means
to say. I can see that, logically, if the bicycle is a vehicle on the
roadway, then yes, you could argue that being clipped-in would violate the
statute.

--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

Luigi de Guzman said:

Daniel Norton said:

How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and Traffic
Law Section 1233:

§ 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any bicycle,
coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board, sled, or
toy
vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
being
operated upon a roadway.

(i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)

You can't hitch yourself onto a passing truck, really, is what that means
to say. I can see that, logically, if the bicycle is a vehicle on the
roadway, then yes, you could argue that being clipped-in would violate the
statute.

Interesting. Ontario's highway traffic act says pretty much the same
thing (section 178 (1)), and the OP's interpretation never occurred to
me, but it does seem like it could be taken to mean that.

The next subsection is also interesting for what it DOESN'T say:
--------
Bicycle passengers

(2) No person riding on a bicycle designed for carrying one
person only shall carry any other person thereon. R.S.O. 1990,
c. H.8, s. 178 (2).
--------
But if you have a bicycle designed for carrying two people, there's no
legal restriction on how many people you can (try to) carry on it.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
I thought it might be a syntax error (given that a keyword is being used in the
wrong place), but every time I say "syntax error" in this newsgroup I get
jumped on by half a dozen people with sharp teeth. --Richard Heathfield in CLC

In article <[email hidden]>,

Luigi de Guzman said:

Daniel Norton said:

How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and Traffic
Law Section 1233:

§ 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any bicycle,
coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board, sled, or
toy
vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
being
operated upon a roadway.

(i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)

You can't hitch yourself onto a passing truck, really, is what that means
to say.

Back in the long-ago days of my youth we used to call
that "bumper shining". If one had good rapport with
the coal/sawdust, bread, or milk delivery truck driver,
one could hitch up to the left side of the truck and
be recognizable in their outside mirror, and get a
boost back to school after lunch if running late --
as long as we didn't overly exploit the favour, or
act goofy while doing so.

In British Columbia it is also unlawful to ride no-hands.

It's also unlawful to ride double. Some of my earliest
childhood, pre-school memories involve being ridden
home at night from my grandmother's place, double on
my older brother's bike. That was when I learned to
love the "feel" of being on a bicycle, and also became
enamoured with astronomy -- how I enjoyed looking up in
wonder at the stars during those homebound rides! I'm
sure it was much better than being cooped up in some
stoopid trailer.

At first I'd sit right on the handlebar. Then I got bigger,
and sat sidesaddle on the top tube. Then I got my own bike
and was free to get myself around.

I think the great ease with which I learned to ride boils down
to my having ridden double as a passenger on my older brother's
bike -- the experience taught me about balance, and not fearing
bicycles.

I still enjoy starry night rides. Except I've got my own bike.
No passengers (usually).

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

"Daniel Norton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and Traffic
Law Section 1233:

§ 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any bicycle,
coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board, sled, or
toy
vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
being
operated upon a roadway.

(i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)

It doesn't say you can't attach your bike to your body. It says while on a
bike/skates etc, you can't be towed by another vehicle being operated upon a
roadway. Your interpretation would make seat belts illegal.

OzCableguy said:

It doesn't say you can't attach your bike to your body. It says while on a
bike/skates etc, you can't be towed by another vehicle being operated upon a
roadway. Your interpretation would make seat belts illegal.

Sorry, but I don't know where you're reading. What I posted clearly
says "attach" and doesn't specifically restrict it to towing. Yes, it
seems to me that a seat belt on a bicycle actually would be illegal
according to this law.

The second paragraph of this same section 1233 seems to reinforce the
attached-pedal prohibition:

2. No person shall ride on or attach himself to the outside of
any vehicle being operated upon a roadway.

Here are the laws online:

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS

Select "VAT Vehicle & Traffic" on that page, then "Article 34 - (1230
- 1241) OPERATION OF BICYCLES AND PLAY DEVICES" on the next page.

--
Daniel

Okay, I figured there was a reasonable and well-defined explanation
(but that's not always the case). There's an artful definition of
"vehicle" in that same article of the law that doesn't include
bicycles:

§ 159. Vehicle. Every device in, upon, or by which any person or
property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway,
except devices moved by human power or used exclusively upon
stationary rails or tracks.

So you can legally grab onto a light rail car from your bicycle.

--
Daniel

In article <[email hidden]>,

Daniel Norton said:

Okay, I figured there was a reasonable and well-defined explanation
(but that's not always the case). There's an artful definition of
"vehicle" in that same article of the law that doesn't include
bicycles:

§ 159. Vehicle. Every device in, upon, or by which any person or
property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway,
except devices moved by human power or used exclusively upon
stationary rails or tracks.

Ontario doesn't have that, so clipless pedals are illegal here if the
OP's reading is correct:

From the definitions in section 1(1):
--------
vehicle includes a motor vehicle, trailer, traction engine, farm
tractor, road-building machine, bicycle and any vehicle drawn,
propelled or driven by any kind of power, including muscular power,
but does not include a motorized snow vehicle or a street car;
(véhicule)
--------

Section 178(1), which I referred to but didn't quote in a previous reply
to this thread:
--------
Bicycle riders, etc., clinging to vehicles

178. (1) A person riding upon a motor assisted bicycle, a
bicycle, a coaster, roller skates, skis, a toboggan, a sled or a toy
vehicle shall not attach it, them, himself or herself to a vehicle or
street car on a roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 178 (1).
--------

Quoted message said:

So you can legally grab onto a light rail car from your bicycle.

They've covered that one here, though.

I don't think motorized snow vehicles can legally be driven on the road,
but if I'm wrong about that the winter cyclists can still get a tow
from them.

dave
(that's an even better one than "reflective material on the forks" for
if I ever get the chance to ask an idiot driver what section of the HTA
I'm in violation of: "I know which one, but it's not the one I think
you think it is."😉

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
The ultimate language has a slightly different legal construct:
do what I should mean
--Michael Rubenstein in comp.lang.c

I'm not a lawyer, but I think I know this much. If a citation were ever
issued for this "violation," the court would take into account the obvious
intent of the law--which is that you are not permitted to hold onto another
vehicle and be towed. Judges don't like people wasting their time with dumb
cases. I can only imagine what they would say to the officer for writing
such a ticket.

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm not a lawyer, but I think I know this much. If a citation were ever
issued for this "violation," the court would take into account the obvious
intent of the law--which is that you are not permitted to hold onto
another vehicle and be towed.

I'm a lawyer and you're correct that a court normally would (or should) take
the intent of the law into account. In Texas, and probably many other
states, the legislature has enacted laws on how its laws should be
construed. Go to this link http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/gv.toc.htm
and look at sections 311.021 and 311.023 for some examples.

"Daniel Norton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and Traffic
Law Section 1233:

§ 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any bicycle,
coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board, sled, or
toy
vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
being
operated upon a roadway.

(i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)

I don't think it's being read correctly, but if so I guess it would also
apply to seat belts?

DI wrote:
:: "Daniel Norton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
:: How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and
:: Traffic Law Section 1233:
::
:: § 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any
:: bicycle, coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board,
:: sled, or
:: toy
:: vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
:: being
:: operated upon a roadway.
::
:: (i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)
::
:: I don't think it's being read correctly, but if so I guess it would
:: also apply to seat belts?

When you get on a bike and close your hands around the grips, you're
attached. Obviously, that's not illegal.

Skates attach to the person wearing them. That's not illegal.

Obviously, the statement implies being attached to another vehicle.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

DI wrote:
:: "Daniel Norton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
:: How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and
:: Traffic Law Section 1233:
::
:: § 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any
:: bicycle, coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board,
:: sled, or
:: toy
:: vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
:: being
:: operated upon a roadway.
::
:: (i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)
::
:: I don't think it's being read correctly, but if so I guess it would
:: also apply to seat belts?

If it applies to clipless pedals, it would also apply to seat belts
on bikes. (Note that drivers or passengers in motor vehicles are not
included in the list of people to whom this section applies.)

Quoted message said:

When you get on a bike and close your hands around the grips, you're
attached. Obviously, that's not illegal.

Well, you never know...

Quoted message said:

Skates attach to the person wearing them. That's not illegal.

Skates aren't vehicles. Bicycles are, at least in some jurisdictions.

Quoted message said:

Obviously, the statement implies being attached to another vehicle.

Likely, but that's not unambiguously obvious from the way it's worded.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
Then again, now that I've made all the effort to push these little buttons,
maybe it's worth it, just for the free Usenet grammar checker.
--Randy the Random in the scary devil monastery

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

DI wrote:
:: "Daniel Norton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
:: How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and
:: Traffic Law Section 1233:
::
:: § 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any
:: bicycle, coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board,
:: sled, or
:: toy
:: vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
:: being
:: operated upon a roadway.
::
:: (i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)
::
:: I don't think it's being read correctly, but if so I guess it would
:: also apply to seat belts?

If it applies to clipless pedals, it would also apply to seat belts
on bikes. (Note that drivers or passengers in motor vehicles are not
included in the list of people to whom this section applies.)

Quoted message said:

When you get on a bike and close your hands around the grips, you're
attached. Obviously, that's not illegal.

Well, you never know...

Quoted message said:

Skates attach to the person wearing them. That's not illegal.

Skates aren't vehicles. Bicycles are, at least in some jurisdictions.

Quoted message said:

Obviously, the statement implies being attached to another vehicle.

Likely, but that's not unambiguously obvious from the way it's worded.

Yes it is, the legislature assumes the normal person would apply logic.

Daniel Norton said:

OzCableguy said:

It doesn't say you can't attach your bike to your body. It says while on a
bike/skates etc, you can't be towed by another vehicle being operated upon a
roadway. Your interpretation would make seat belts illegal.

Sorry, but I don't know where you're reading. What I posted clearly
says "attach" and doesn't specifically restrict it to towing. Yes, it
seems to me that a seat belt on a bicycle actually would be illegal
according to this law.

The second paragraph of this same section 1233 seems to reinforce the
attached-pedal prohibition:

2. No person shall ride on or attach himself to the outside of
any vehicle being operated upon a roadway.

Here are the laws online:

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS

Select "VAT Vehicle & Traffic" on that page, then "Article 34 - (1230
- 1241) OPERATION OF BICYCLES AND PLAY DEVICES" on the next page.

I don't think bicycles are "vehicles" under New York law (they are
"wheeled non-motorized means of conveyance"😉, so the restriction on
attaching yourself to a vehicle doesn't say anything about attaching
yourself to a bicycle.

Dennis Ferguson

That's a good point. Seat belts and car seats are a violation then....

DI said:

I don't think it's being read correctly, but if so I guess it would also
apply to seat belts?

--
Message posted via http://www.cyclingcrowd.com

Quoted message said:

DI said:

I don't think it's being read correctly, but if so I guess it would also
apply to seat belts?

In article 74ade5893dce7@uwe said:

That's a good point. Seat belts and car seats are a violation then....

Only if the seat belts and car seats are used by somebody "riding upon
any bicycle, coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board, sled,
or toy vehicle" to attach him/her/itself to a vehicle (which excludes
almost everything (or everything, depending on the jurisdiction) on
that list). In particular, I don't see cars, which is where seat belts
and car seats are normally used, on that list.

dave
(reading for comprehension since 1985)

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
Actually, the temperature rarely gets above 40. It's actually pleasant
on a dry day. Unfortunately, there's no such thing here as a dry day.
--Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz in the scary devil monastery

Daniel Norton said:

How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and Traffic
Law Section 1233:

§ 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any bicycle,
coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board, sled, or
toy
vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
being
operated upon a roadway.

(i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)

'...shall attach the *same* or himself or herself' is saying you cant
attach you or your thing listed to a vehicle. Doesnt say anything
about attaching yourself to the skates, sled or bike.

VBadJuJu wrote:
:: Daniel Norton <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: How do clip and clipless pedals jibe with New York Vehicle and
::: Traffic Law Section 1233:
:::
::: § 1233. Clinging to vehicles. 1. No person riding upon any
::: bicycle, coaster, in-line skates, roller skates, skate board,
::: sled, or toy
::: vehicle shall attach the same or himself or herself to any vehicle
::: being
::: operated upon a roadway.
:::
::: (i.e. you can't attach your bike to your body)
::
:: '...shall attach the *same* or himself or herself' is saying you cant
:: attach you or your thing listed to a vehicle. Doesnt say anything
:: about attaching yourself to the skates, sled or bike.

Sometimes, newsgroup folks enjoy trying to find nits to pick. 🙂

Forget the clips (or clipless). By attaching themselve" the law meand
you cannot hold onto the handlebars, sit astride the saddle, push the
pedals...

IOW, you cannot ride your bike. You have to walk alongside it moving it
via telekinesis. Because to touch it in any way would mean you would be
attached to the moving vehicle..

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