Maintaining Heart rate on Endurace rides

Tom: I'm no coach, but I'd say you're going out too hard on this long ride and then getting into the lactate threshold zone by the halfway point. To me, endurance pace means a steady one that's easy to sustain for the entire length of the ride. 80% max HR isn't really an endurance pace, is it?

Why not force yourself to stay at or below 66% of max HR on the entire ride tomorrow and see how it goes? You'll have to slow down or drop back a gear when you hit 66%. I know it's hard to go that slow because that's what I'm doing this week while I get over a sinus infection.

Pre-ride nutrition is of course an individual choice. I eat my regular egg/toast/cottage cheese breakfast, and add in extra carbs via a large bowl oatmeal for the long ride ahead. Then I normally don't eat or drink carbs on the bike at all....water seems like all I want as long as I get fueled in the AM. You may need a different eating plan of course.

Dan

400 calories per hour of riding is a lot Tom. I would say ease off a little, consume about 60g (240cals) carb per 500ml bottle per hour, and see how it goes. As the previous poster said it sounds like you're going off too fast and then bonking (low glycogen) if you're noticed a big drop-off in pace afer 1hr 30. Try riding easier, especially in the first 30minutes until your body gets the fat burning process going, then that should supply more energy to support your riding. Don't over do the carbs in the carbo drink either as that will slow absorption a lot if the mix is too concentrated.

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Originally posted by TTer
400 calories per hour of riding is a lot Tom. I would say ease off a little, consume about 60g (240cals) carb per 500ml bottle per hour, and see how it goes. As the previous poster said it sounds like you're going off too fast and then bonking (low glycogen) if you're noticed a big drop-off in pace afer 1hr 30. Try riding easier, especially in the first 30minutes until your body gets the fat burning process going, then that should supply more energy to support your riding. Don't over do the carbs in the carbo drink either as that will slow absorption a lot if the mix is too concentrated.

TTer, at 60g/500mL that's still very concentrated -- it's a 12% solution. Research shows that a 6 - 8% solution is best, i.e., 30 to 40 g/500 mL/hr with slightly higher solutions in cold weather (where fluid loss may not be as high). I'd still limit it to a 10% at max solution.

As regards pacing, this is one excellent aspect of using a power meter -- rather than relying on HR, which can vary at given intensities, if you know the mean power you can sustain over a given duration you can aim for that figure on a ride, knowing you'll be able to do it.

Ric

Originally posted by dhk, i responded with >>
Tom: I'm no coach, but I'd say you're going out too hard on this long ride and then getting into the lactate threshold zone by the halfway point. To me, endurance pace means a steady one that's easy to sustain for the entire length of the ride. 80% max HR isn't really an endurance pace, is it?

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depending on your goals and fitness the upper end of this scale (HRmax 80%) can and should be used for longish rides (~ 1 - 3+ hrs). Back to back days of these are very fatiguing, and need a high intake of carbohydrate to aid recovery. Severely limit these back to back days.

Why not force yourself to stay at or below 66% of max HR on the entire ride tomorrow and see how it goes? You'll have to slow down or drop back a gear when you hit 66%. I know it's hard to go that slow because that's what I'm doing this week while I get over a sinus infection.

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recovering from an infection is a good reason to keep intensity low. during other training, especially if you race, which i think the original poster does or intends to, then they'll need to incorporate harder efforts

Pre-ride nutrition is of course an individual choice. I eat my regular egg/toast/cottage cheese breakfast, and add in extra carbs via a large bowl oatmeal for the long ride ahead.

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i can't imagine all that protein prior to riding would do you much good.

Then I normally don't eat or drink carbs on the bike at all....water seems like all I want as long as I get fueled in the AM. You may need a different eating plan of course.

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it's imperative to keep taking in carbs while riding, ~ 30 to 60g/h to maintain energy levels, even with a good breakfast prior to exercise. by taking in carbs you'll be able to maintain a higher workload and therefore get 'fitter'. it's also important to use an electrolyte drink especially in temperate conditions or if your sweat rate is high. water isn't a good choice under those conditions.

Ric

Ric: Thanks for your reply. Understand and agree with most of your comments. But, concerning the protein for breakfast, I don't think one egg and a serving of cottage cheese is excessive protein....about 20 gms? Wouldn't eat that right before a race of course, but for a long club ride (3-4 hours) it works well for me. I try to eat 20-25 gms of quality protein 3 times a day.

Will try the on-bike carbs. Now that I've got my weight down, adding some on-bike fuel and post-ride carbs should enable me to train better. Seems sometimes the refined sugar doesn't sit well, but that may be because I tend to drink it all at once at a rest stop! Will mix up some Gatorade tomorrow and try sipping it slowly throughout the ride...60-90 minutes or so.

Thanks for advice,
Dan

Well, I went out on my 3 hour 30 minute ride today and capped my heart rate at 122 (66%) for the majority of it. My average HR was 121 (max 184) for the whole duration.

About two hours into it I started to feel a little light headed but this seemed to go away when i took on some fuel.

Ric - Is 240 cals/hr enough? I felt like I needed more to sustain pace.

Also, In Ed Burke's book (serious cycling) he suggest you take on 7-8 cals per pound of body weight 3 hours prior to such a ride. This equates to 1050-1200 cals for me. This seems rather a lot? Is it too much?

Maintainin this heart rate (122) seemed quite difficult. 80% (148) seems like it would be impossible. I'm sure its just a case of working up to it, however, I'm just making sure that I'm doing everything in my power off the bike aswell as on it.

Thanks,
Tom.

Tom: Our max HR's are the same. I just turned 56, and have been riding for quite a while. Tried crit racing about 10 years ago with my son, but haven't really trained for top speed since then.

Good on your long ride today. But, if your average HR was 121 for the whole ride, then you were probably above 75% for a good bit of the time too, right? You still could be pushing harder than you should on a long endurance ride, IMO.

My problem on long club rides is just the opposite of yours. I can easily maintain the 148 or higher, but I'm trying to get more training miles to bring the HR down. I'd like to be able to ride 18-20 mph at 66% max HR or lower.

When I go out to do an easy ride, as I did today, I set 66% as the limit. I did touch 75% on the 12% hill back to my house....riding seated at 3-4 mph in 39/26. I wanted to stand and sprint, but held back. I'll do a hill climb workout on Weds and don't want to push hard until then.

I'm just sharing my own experience; certainly follow Ric's expert advice over mine!

Dan

I did carmichaels test in the "ultimate ride" and was a bit shocked
at the numbers. lactate threshold numbers were lower than i has always done them (i kind of suspected they were too high ), but the endurance HR number were far higher than i had always done. Now i do a 3hr at new pace and can do the ride but it does take some concentration.
I wonder if slogging along at that slow pace ever did me any good!?
tarvy

Originally posted by tomUK, i responded with >>

Well, I went out on my 3 hour 30 minute ride today and capped my heart rate at 122 (66%) for the majority of it. My average HR was 121 (max 184) for the whole duration.

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I did 4:20 at an average of about 75% HRmax. At such a low intensity (65%) there's going to be very little benefit -- mainly, just getting used to being in the saddle for a long period of time. You're going to have used little carbohydrate at such intensity

About two hours into it I started to feel a little light headed but this seemed to go away when i took on some fuel.

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start eating and drinking at the beginning of the ride, not when you feel tired -- it's too late then!

Ric - Is 240 cals/hr enough? I felt like I needed more to sustain pace.

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while individual differences may occur, 60g/hr CHO in a 750 mL fluid is probably close to the upper limit of what you'd need for a more severe session. i consumed 5 x 500 mL with 35g CHO per bottle and two cereal bars during the entire ride, which works out at about 47g/h for my ride.

Also, In Ed Burke's book (serious cycling) he suggest you take on 7-8 cals per pound of body weight 3 hours prior to such a ride. This equates to 1050-1200 cals for me. This seems rather a lot? Is it too much?

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the actual recommendation is to consume 1g CHO/kg body mass for each hour prior to heavy exercise, i.e., if you're racing and eat 3 hrs beforehand and have a mass of 70kg, then 1 x 70 x 3 = 210 g CHO (840 kcals)

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as an idea i ate 2 hrs prior to exercise and had

5 slices of toast (20g x 5) = 100g
Cereal bar = 35g
glass of juice = 10g
2 espressos = 0g

which is just over 2g/kg body mass

Maintainin this heart rate (122) seemed quite difficult. 80% (148) seems like it would be impossible. I'm sure its just a case of working up to it, however, I'm just making sure that I'm doing everything in my power off the bike aswell as on it.

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my ~ 80% rides start at 90-min and work upwards. i aim to finish my long rides before i feel 'bad'.

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are you sure you have your HRmax correct? how did you calculate it?

Thanks,
Tom. [/QUOTE]

Ric -

I calculated my HR max by riding out to a long hill (about 30 minuntes away from my home) at 65-70% MHR. When climbing the hill I started my interval workout which consisted of 5 x 3 minutes at HR 148+ with 3 minutes of recovery between. On the 3rd interval I pushed myself extremely hard and once I got home I looked at the MHR in my polar software.

I'm pretty certain I managed to get my MHR as at the end of this interval I felt like falling off the bike and dying - or at least throwing up!

I was well rested prior to doing this and I also had myself a couple of espresso the moment before I walked out the door from home.

For me to, like you did, keep my HR at 75% for 4:20hrs really seems like an impossible feat. All I can wonder is what on earth I am doing wrong?

What was your average power output for your ride? Also, what weight are you?

Tom.

Originally posted by tomUK, i responded with>>

I calculated my HR max by riding out to a long hill (about 30 minuntes away from my home) at 65-70% MHR. When climbing the hill I started my interval workout which consisted of 5 x 3 minutes at HR 148+ with 3 minutes of recovery between. On the 3rd interval I pushed myself extremely hard and once I got home I looked at the MHR in my polar software.

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could well be your max

For me to, like you did, keep my HR at 75% for 4:20hrs really seems like an impossible feat. All I can wonder is what on earth I am doing wrong?

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as i've said before HR is pretty much irrelevant. i train by power and percieved exertion. it just happens that my avg HR yesterday is 75%

What was your average power output for your ride? Also, what weight are you?

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i rode in zone 2 average for the ride, climbing at zone 4 to 5. 68 kg

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i'm not suggesting that you ride at 75% for 4:20hrs. your best off riding at an intensity and duration that suits you. also, you may be better off doing shorter harder rides

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all depends on what your goals etc are

Ric

Tom. [/QUOTE]

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i rode in zone 2 average for the ride, climbing at zone 4 to 5. 68 kg

How many watts (on average) is zone 2, 4 and 5 for you?

Tom

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Originally posted by tomUK

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i rode in zone 2 average for the ride, climbing at zone 4 to 5. 68 kg

How many watts (on average) is zone 2, 4 and 5 for you?

Tom

I don't feel that it makes much difference what my power was in an absolute sense, to anyone but myself. My relative zones can be seen at http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern

Ric

Ric -

I don't see the harm in asking - it seems though you don't wish to tell us. Personally, I thought this would be a good advert for your business. If for example you were out riding 4:20hr at 200W (your zone 2) average then I myself would be thinking 'this guy needs to be training me!'

Cheers,
Tom.

Tom, I don't think Ric is trying to keep anything from you by not giving his zones (after all, ability does not depend directly on power, but weight and aerodynamics which must be taken into account). Instead I think he is wary of giving absolute numbers (which do not apply to anyone but Ric, or someone of his size/weight/ability) that others then try to achieve in training.

How long have you been riding Tom? How many hours per week have you been doing in that time? From what you say I think you do need to reduce the length of your long rides to 2hours and see how you go. Get the eating/drinking and intensity right in the 1hr30 to 2hour ride first and when you can comfortably manage that time then upgrade the time by 5-10minutes per week. At the moment it sounds like you are suffering on the long ride, even though you're riding at a very low intensity. There's no point putting your body through that initially. Bonking (or getting close) really takes it out of you such that you need a few days recovery afterwards. Build-up slowly instead.

TTer -

I've been road riding for 6 months now, doing an average of 9-12 hours per week during that time. Before the road riding I did recreational mountain biking and decided to take up cycling serious.

It's hard to get a plan for the training season depending on one's ability. The LA training plan seems quiet good, but I found myself starting in the advanced 7-week program as I could ride the 3 minute time trial in this group time.

Thanks,
Tom.

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Originally posted by tomUK
I've been road riding for 6 months now, doing an average of 9-12 hours per week during that time. Before the road riding I did recreational mountain biking and decided to take up cycling serious.

It's hard to get a plan for the training season depending on one's ability. The LA training plan seems quiet good, but I found myself starting in the advanced 7-week program as I could ride the 3 minute time trial in this group time.

Hmm... it must be a feeding issue then if you've been riding a fair while at those hours, unless you are overdoing it (HR is supressed despite effort?) and you need a good rest. What is your weekly plan?

The LA plans in my opinion aren't up to much. I think the advanced plan is the only one worth following, and even then it includes very little intensity above the other plans. All plans seem to follow Chris Carmichael's beliefs that more time in zone 2 equals better performance at zone 2 and above, though IME that doesn't follow.

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Originally posted by tomUK
Ric -

I don't see the harm in asking - it seems though you don't wish to tell us. Personally, I thought this would be a good advert for your business. If for example you were out riding 4:20hr at 200W (your zone 2) average then I myself would be thinking 'this guy needs to be training me!'

Cheers,
Tom.

Tom,

It's not i don't want to tell you, i'm just not sure how relevant it is, and if my power looks good (to some) i wouldn't want to be accused of being 'big headed'. personally, i've got no problem sharing my data with others. as TTer mentions it's also relevant to know height and mass.

I don't feel it's important that, that the power i can produce is relevant to the people i coach. There are many coaches that can't produce the power that 'their' riders can, i.e., i coach people at world class and pro level, and could never hope to attain that ability level.

Anyway, i averaged 190 W, did 18 mins at TT power 256 - 321 W, and 5 mins at 322 - 405 W. mass is about 68 kg, and height is 1.75 m

Ric

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Originally posted by TTer
How long have you been riding Tom? How many hours per week have you been doing in that time? From what you say I think you do need to reduce the length of your long rides to 2hours and see how you go. Get the eating/drinking and intensity right in the 1hr30 to 2hour ride first and when you can comfortably manage that time then upgrade the time by 5-10minutes per week. At the moment it sounds like you are suffering on the long ride, even though you're riding at a very low intensity. There's no point putting your body through that initially. Bonking (or getting close) really takes it out of you such that you need a few days recovery afterwards. Build-up slowly instead.

prior to doing long rides i did a lot of rides at an equivalent of ~ 80% HRmax for 90 - 120 mins. Prior to this i did them at less intensity.

It's about having progressive goals that are appropriate to you.

Ric