F**king Ramblers.

The Reid said:

Really? Geriatric in that context was an insult. "Woman" isn't a
negative unless associated with some negative activity.
Here's some examples
the car was crashed by a woman
a walker was mugged by a black man

see how it works? You mention the label when it suits the prejudice.

I'm sorry Mike, but you're inferring a negative association where none
exists. Both of your examples above are simply statements of fact. There's
no negative association except in your mind. If a car crashed and the driver
happened to be a woman, how is that derogatory? It's just a statement of
fact. Exactly the kind of thing you hear on the news every day.

If the news reports that "Islamic terrorists set off a bomb somewhere", does
that imply that all who believe in Islam are terrorists? Of course not, it's
a simple statement of fact. Just because a small subsection of a particular
group of people do something bad, that doesn't imply that everyone in that
group is similarly bad. The negative association only exists in your own
mind.

I once mentioned to someone, before a walk, that there was a cold breeze
blowing outside. I was then stunned to be accused of "moaning about the
weather" and "making excuses not to go out". I did no such thing. I was
simply stating a fact. There *was* a cold breeze blowing outside. I didn't
say that I didn't like cold breezes, nor had I any intention of not going
out. I was simply pointing out what the weather conditions were, so as to
prepare adequately for them, for example by putting a jacket on.

A lot of people seem to interpret things negatively when that's not the
intention. I honestly don't think that was the intention here. Toad's post
was about intolerant walkers hogging the summit, not about old people being
intolerant.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

The Reid said:

probably not, but if I get told I don't understand English and am
stupid, I'm going to point out the error!

Fair enough. You both seemed to get a bit carried away last night. Perhaps
there was some alcohol involved?

I too had a drink last night, but decided to wait until today before saying
anything.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

toad said:

I was pretty peeved but wondered if I was being a little intolerant -
the hills are there for everyone,

Quoted message said:

Maybe it's my fault for going on a BH weekend.

Yep, that'd be it.

The best time to go walking is early on Wednesday morning in the pouring
rain, a week or two before Christmas. ;-)

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

Broadback said:

I am a Grandparent rambler, however I never go in a group, always just
my wife and myself. If a group are in my way then I can move off, what
niggles me most (unlike you) is the gabble. Chances of seeing wild
life is zilch, it has all run away long before they are within sight,
frightened (like me) by the noise.

Although I'm not a big fan of wildlife per se, I do favour walking alone, so
I get to see a lot of it. Hopping bunny rabbits, strolling foxes, surprised
buzzards, swooping Merlins and so on.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

Jim Ford said:

I went on that sort of walk with a 'Rambling' group once. All they
seem to want to do is walk from A to B chatting.

I went for a walk with the Ramblers, once...

Quoted message said:

No one took any
notice of their surroundings - they could have done the walk equally
well in the middle of London. There was no interest whatsoever in the
scenery, flora or fauna.

Same here. It was nothing more than a social gathering. I spent the whole
walk thinking that we may as well have been sitting in a pub together. At
least we'd have been able to have a drink whilst we chatted.

Quoted message said:

I've never been again.

Like I said, once...

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

see how it works? You mention the label when it suits the prejudice.

I'm sorry Mike, but you're inferring a negative association where none
exists. Both of your examples above are simply statements of fact. There's
no negative association except in your mind. If a car crashed and the driver
happened to be a woman, how is that derogatory? It's just a statement of
fact. Exactly the kind of thing you hear on the news every day.

Its negative stereotyping when its done only for certain groups. If
the press report car crashes and muggings but only state gender when
its a woman crashes a car or black person mugs they are stereotyping.
(or worse only highlight cases that fit the stereotype) You see it in
parts of the press for car crashes for sports car or 4x4, any other
car the type is usually ignored.

"Geriatric" of course is just plain derogatory.
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

Paul Saunders said:

You both seemed to get a bit carried away last night. Perhaps
there was some alcohol involved?

I have to hold my hands up and admit I was enjoying the squabble
yesterday. For some reason I just can't be bothered to Reid some posts
today.

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

"USAGE: Geriatric is the normal, semi-official term used in Britain
and the US when referring to the health care of old people (a
geriatric ward; geriatric patients). When used outside such contexts,
it typically carries overtones of being worn out and decrepit and can
therefore be offensive if used with reference to people"

I think the key phrase here is "can therefore be offensive". But I don't it
is in this instance because it was applied to a group of walkers who clearly
weren't geriatric. It's rather like calling a fat man "tiny" or a tall man
"shorty". It's tongue in cheek because it obviously isn't true.

The parallel is calling them "you youngsters" which happens sometimes.
If you were very short would you like to be called "lofty" by
strangers?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

being "elderly" does not have negative connotations here, most would
probably prefer "older". Only derogatory terms such as "geriatric"
applied to those who are not are likely to create a fuss.

Sorry Mike, I think you're over-reacting.

I'm not actually that bothered, I'm reacting more to being told I
don't understand English and am stupid, given the Oxford agrees with
me, its a bit rich!

Quoted message said:

I don't consider it to be
instrically derogatory, and certainly not in this instance.

I think it is. Would you use it to an OAPs face? They might of course
use it themselves for a joke, as a black guy might call himself a
n*****. but I cant do that unless *very* close friends.

At the weekend two *old* guys doing entrance fees said to us "here
come two young uns" they could do that because they were clearly more
one foot in the grave than us. We turned it into a nice little joke
session, now imagine it with two youths saying the same thing, doesn't
work does it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Best advice is to use terms that you would use to their faces. would
"geriatric" or "f****** ramblers" pass that test?

But isn't that all just a bit too PC?

not really, only calling people things you would to their face is
quite a good principal IMHO.

Quoted message said:

I know we all need to be a bit more
careful about what we say these days, but let's not go over the top. I often
call other drivers idiots when they do something I don't like, but I don't
really mean it. I'm sure other drivers call me an idiot sometimes, but of
course I always have a good reason for doing what I did, and they probably
do too.

"Idiots" very mild! :-)

Quoted message said:

I think you should chill a bit Mike. Open another bottle of wine, perhaps?
:-)

this time of the morning? :*) This row only took off because I read
the original and replied to it before seeing retraction, I then said
I've seen the retraction, it could have stopped there, but what's
wrong with an argument anyway? :-)
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

The message <[email hidden]>
from Bill Grey <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

.............and they offer the opportunity for some members of the
public to take walks they might otherwise not attempt. This NG should
be encouraging walking anyway.

So it should indeed - in effect it is a matter of demarcation, brothers!
The RA covers walking on the low ground, and power to their arms, there.

The BMC (England & Wales), MCofS (Scotland), and MCofI (Ireland, North
and South) cover mountaineering. Where the RA makes problems is when
they start empire building on the high ground, edging in on climbing
centres and so forth.

Richard

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

probably not, but if I get told I don't understand English and am
stupid, I'm going to point out the error!

Fair enough. You both seemed to get a bit carried away last night. Perhaps
there was some alcohol involved?

not this end, I can argue for Britain sober :-)
--
Mike Reid
I do like a bit of a row, I must get a boat.
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk"

On 9 May 2007 05:16:31 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I have to hold my hands up and admit I was enjoying the squabble
yesterday.

me too :-)
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

The Reid said:

The parallel is calling them "you youngsters" which happens sometimes.
If you were very short would you like to be called "lofty" by
strangers?

Frankly it wouldn't bother me. I've never been bothered by name calling.
When I lived in Southampton I played in a band and the guitarist often used
to like to point out to the audience that I was from Wales, and he'd
frequently make "baaing" noises at me during the gigs. Didn't bother me.
Mind you, I did think he was being rather childish.

I put this sort of thing down to "good natured rivalry" or "friendly
insults". And even if it's meant in a nasty way, it still doesn't bother me.
People who resort to name calling have the problem, not me. Sticks and
stones and all that...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't consider it to be
instrically derogatory, and certainly not in this instance.

I think it is. Would you use it to an OAPs face?

It would depend on the situation. If I did it wouldn't be in a derogatory
way.

Quoted message said:

They might of course
use it themselves for a joke, as a black guy might call himself a
n*****. but I cant do that unless *very* close friends.

I don't think there's any comparison with the N word.

Quoted message said:

At the weekend two *old* guys doing entrance fees said to us "here
come two young uns" they could do that because they were clearly more
one foot in the grave than us. We turned it into a nice little joke
session, now imagine it with two youths saying the same thing, doesn't
work does it?

I don't see why not, kids often poke fun at the old, don't they?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But isn't that all just a bit too PC?

not really, only calling people things you would to their face is
quite a good principal IMHO.

I agree, so it's okay to use geriatric then... :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I often call other drivers idiots when they do something I don't
like, but I don't really mean it. I'm sure other drivers call me an
idiot sometimes, but of course I always have a good reason for doing
what I did, and they probably do too.

"Idiots" very mild! :-)

I was paraphrasing.. :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you should chill a bit Mike. Open another bottle of wine,
perhaps? :-)

this time of the morning? :*)

Well it's the afternoon here in Wales. Maybe it's a bit early in your time
zone.

Quoted message said:

This row only took off because I read
the original and replied to it before seeing retraction, I then said
I've seen the retraction, it could have stopped there, but what's
wrong with an argument anyway? :-)

That's not an argument, that's a contradiction! Arguments is two doors up!

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

They might of course
use it themselves for a joke, as a black guy might call himself a
n*****. but I cant do that unless *very* close friends.

I don't think there's any comparison with the N word.

there isn't, except in the context I was using.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At the weekend two *old* guys doing entrance fees said to us "here
come two young uns" they could do that because they were clearly more
one foot in the grave than us. We turned it into a nice little joke
session, now imagine it with two youths saying the same thing, doesn't
work does it?

I don't see why not, kids often poke fun at the old, don't they?

is that OK?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But isn't that all just a bit too PC?

not really, only calling people things you would to their face is
quite a good principal IMHO.

I agree, so it's okay to use geriatric then... :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I often call other drivers idiots when they do something I don't
like, but I don't really mean it. I'm sure other drivers call me an
idiot sometimes, but of course I always have a good reason for doing
what I did, and they probably do too.

"Idiots" very mild! :-)

I was paraphrasing.. :-)

Ahhh. By the way, do you get any crashes changing fonts with Photoshop
CS?
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

In message <[email hidden]>

The Reid said:

Richard Spencer said:

Were they indeed "Ramblers", viz card-carrying members of that, er,
(dis)organisation?

why do you say "dis", they seem effective to me?

When van Hoogstraten was showing sustained intent on blocking access to
footpaths over his estate, the reaction of the local Highways Authority
was to issue intent to divert the footpaths around the estate. It was
the determination of the RA to pursue the matter doggedly through the
courts that finally resulted in the reopening of the original rights of
way, and that also required the financial support of their members and
donors.

Similarly they had a sustained lobbying campaign over right to roam and
are now actively involved in coastal access.

Although providing a social outlet for some of their members it isn't
the only role of the organisation, or indeed, it isn't the most
important role.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

The Reid said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see why not, kids often poke fun at the old, don't they?

is that OK?

Doesn't bother me. It's just human nature, which I see as basically
harmless. Now if they resorted to physical violence, that would be a
different matter. I just don't understand why so many people are offended by
mere words. And please don't try to explain it to me, I think Peter Clinch
did that once. I suppose I have to accept that some people are unduly
bothered by words, but it's just water off a duck's back to me.

Quoted message said:

Ahhh. By the way, do you get any crashes changing fonts with Photoshop
CS?

CS? What's that? A bit behind the times, aren't we?

No problems that I recall.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

Ahhh. By the way, do you get any crashes changing fonts with Photoshop
CS?

CS? What's that? A bit behind the times, aren't we?

Yes!
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

toad <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

We did a spot of Hewitt bagging this weekend, enjoying some superb
scenery on and around Bannau Sir Gaer, Fan Brycheiniog, Fan Gyhirych &
Fan Nedd.

However for myself and my companion Fan Brycheiniog was slightly
spoiled by a gang of geriatric walkers.

I'll let this cover of The Who be my final comment!

Watch right to the end!

--
Gordon H
(Remove invalid to email)

Gordon H said:

toad <[email hidden]> writes>We did a spot of Hewitt bagging this weekend, enjoying some superb

Quoted message said:

scenery on and around Bannau Sir Gaer, Fan Brycheiniog, Fan Gyhirych &
Fan Nedd.

Quoted message said:

However for myself and my companion Fan Brycheiniog was slightly
spoiled by a gang of geriatric walkers.

I'll let this cover of The Who be my final comment!

Watch right to the end!

That's them! The trig hogging [censored], I'd know those cardigans
anywhere!

Can we leave the age thing alone now. It was completely irrelevant to
my point!

That's the time I bad mouth the Rambler's too. If they've got the
balls to take on Hoogstraten....

On 9 May 2007 08:54:38 -0700, toad <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Watch right to the end!

LOL
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

Paul Saunders said:

The Reid said:

The parallel is calling them "you youngsters" which happens sometimes.
If you were very short would you like to be called "lofty" by
strangers?

Frankly it wouldn't bother me. I've never been bothered by name calling.

I don't care what people call me - as long as it's not 'too late for
breakfast'!

Jim Ford