Looking for good (probably moderated) message board

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan said:

I have found that the *right* racing shoe is easier on the feet and
legs then the wrong trainer with supposedly more advanced "control"
and "support" features (i.e., more ounces of heavy stuff).

Of course you know where I stand.

But I just received the summer 07 copy of "New York Runner" from the
NY Road Runners. They dispense this sage advice to their four hundred
billion members:

-- snip --

Motion-control shoes are best for:
- severe overpronators (runners with low-arched or inward-rolling
feet)
- runners who weigh 180 pounds or more
- high-mileage runners (more than 30 miles per week)

I don't like the mileage notion unless it implies OverP AND 180+ AND
30+. They are not implying that everyone that runs more than 30 should
be wearing 2x4's? 😉

Quoted message said:

- frequently injured runners (those who have lost four weeks or more
of training due to injury in the past year)

They should also have "runners who run with orthotics or arch supports."
MC shoes do not negate the need for those that need orthotics.

Quoted message said:

Stability shoes are best for:
- mild to moderate overpronators (runners whose shoes do not break
down on the inner side)
- runners who weight less than 180 pounds
- moderate mileage runners (15-30 miles per week)

Again, I don't understand why mileage is mentioned.

Quoted message said:

- runners who run with orthotics or arch supports
- rarely injured runners (those who have lost less than four weeks of
training due to injury in the past year)

Cushioned shoes are best for:
- underpronators (runners with high-arched or outward-rolling feet)
- runners who weigh less than 140 pounds or who run very efficiently
- beginners and low-mileage runners (less than 15 miles per week)
- rarely injured runners

So a 160 lb. runner that is neutral should and runs 50 miles a week
should wear what shoe? I hope there are more words to tie this together
because alone the list is misleading/confusing. I'm shooting the list
not the messenger. 😉

-Doug

On Jul 31, 2:37 am, "Dennis Q. Wilson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

What was the name of that moderated group again?

Look you rascist jerk, Knebel and I are both trolls working together
to rid this place of wussies like you. So tuck tail n run...away.

Charlie Pendejo said:

Ugh, no thanks to any of the above. Or even the 10 oz. LWTs which are
allegedly suitable for only the elitest one or two percent of the
population.

Unless they're doing more than 30mpw in which case they are best served by
motion control shoes.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Donovan said:

Unless they're doing more than 30mpw in which case they are best
served by motion control shoes.

Is that what the high school kids on l-run mean when they say things
like "Ryan Hall is a BEAST" - they're diagnosing shoe type?

Doug said:

I hope there are more words to tie this together
because alone the list is misleading/confusing.

No, that's pretty much it for the right hand column. I totally agree
about the worthlessness - at best! - of this little article, which is
why I pretty much typed it in full.

And of course I also don't understand why mileage is mentioned, except
I take a perverse pleasure that they managed to make it directly not
inversely proportional to weight: run more, weigh more.

Admittedly on the left hand column of that page, there's some solid
advice: go buy your first running shoes from a specialty store where
you can see what really fits the size and shape of your foot and get
help on sizing which'll probably be half to full size bigger than what
you're used to, expect to replace shoes roughly every 500 miles, etc.
But it kind of stands separately from this "determine your shoe type"
list, neither informing, supporting, or contradicting it.

Quoted message said:

I'm shooting the list not the messenger. 😉

I read you loud and clear.

But I hope you'll shoot this messenger from time to time, because
dammit I do so enjoy firing back. :-)

Donovan said:

Unless they're doing more than 30mpw in which case they are best
served by motion control shoes.

Is that what the high school kids on l-run mean when they say things
like "Ryan Hall is a BEAST" - they're diagnosing shoe type?

Michelle said:

He told me that my feet were neutral [...] One of the other shoes
he showed me, he said were also neutral, but the label inside the
tongue and the label on the box said that they were stability shoes.
The salesperson insisted that they were neutral despite the
manufacturer's labeling. Maybe that should have warned me away from
that store, or at least that salesperson.

another specialty store [...] said that I had some very mild
pronation, and that a mild stability shoe or a neutral shoe would
be best. I got a neutral shoe, and haven't had any foot pain

OK, glad your story has a good ending.

But really at least the way you tell the story, nobody sounds
unambiguously "wrong". This stuff's all a matter of degree, it's not
like the foot factory makes three distinct models of foot with
different arch heights, or the shoe factory adheres rigidly to three
prototypes (plus lightweight trainers for a half dozen biologically
gifted runners on the planet who know they're just begging to get
injured running in those skimpy lil' things...)

Sounds like both your requirements, and the second pair of shoes from
the first store, are kinda borderline neutral/stability.

The good news is you don't seem to need exotic motion control, so in
another year or two Dan and Donovan and lance and I will start subtly
egging you on to run in flats. ;-)

Michelle said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Charlie Pendejo said:

Admittedly on the left hand column of that page, there's some solid
advice: go buy your first running shoes from a specialty store where
you can see what really fits the size and shape of your foot and get
help on sizing which'll probably be half to full size bigger than
what you're used to, expect to replace shoes roughly every 500 miles,
etc.

The first pair of shoes I bought for running was at a specialty store.
The salesperson had me run on the sidewalk away from him and then
towards him. He told me that my feet were neutral--neither pronating
nor supernating, and sold me a pair of neutral shoes. After a few weeks
of running in them, I noticed that my feet hurt--specifically where the
arch meets the side of the foot on the inside. One of the other shoes
he showed me, he said were also neutral, but the label inside the tongue
and the label on the box said that they were stability shoes. The
salesperson insisted that they were neutral despite the manufacturer's
labeling. Maybe that should have warned me away from that store, or at
least that salesperson.

Doesn't sound like an error to me. People use "neutral" to mean different
things. It's not a very good piece of terminology, because it's ambiguous
and a bit misleading, as the only way to really be "neutral" is to run
barefoot, because anything you put on your feet affects footstrike way or
another. It's also often the case that shoes not specifically designed for
people with gait problems (Asics magic racer is a good example) have medial
posts or other stability devices.

I mean, if someone who doesn't overpronate wears what you're calling "neutral"
shoes, what does an underpronator wear ?

Some only recommend cushioning shoes for "underpronators", and recommend
stability shoes for people who appear to neither underpronate or overpronate.
The stability shoes are "neutral" in that they're not supposed to tip the
balance either way -- a cushion shoe may well encourage or enhance pronation
because cushioning provides for more freedom of movement, so medial posts are
supposed to compensate for this.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug wrote:
But I hope you'll shoot this messenger from time to time, because
dammit I do so enjoy firing back. :-)

Unlike our president who advocates the ready, shoot, aim philosophy, I
going to aim carefully. 🙂

-Doug

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elflord said:

Quoted message said:

The first pair of shoes I bought for running was at a specialty
store. The salesperson had me run on the sidewalk away from him
and then towards him. He told me that my feet were
neutral--neither pronating nor supernating, and sold me a pair of
neutral shoes. After a few weeks of running in them, I noticed
that my feet hurt--specifically where the arch meets the side of
the foot on the inside. One of the other shoes he showed me, he
said were also neutral, but the label inside the tongue and the
label on the box said that they were stability shoes. The
salesperson insisted that they were neutral despite the
manufacturer's labeling. Maybe that should have warned me away
from that store, or at least that salesperson.

Doesn't sound like an error to me. People use "neutral" to mean
different things.

He said that it meant that it wasn't a stability or motion-control shoe,
and described what stability and motion-control shoes are. He described
the terms before showing my any shoes.

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Charlie Pendejo said:

The good news is you don't seem to need exotic motion control, so in
another year or two Dan and Donovan and lance and I will start subtly
egging you on to run in flats. ;-)

*chuckle* So far, I mostly run on flats--very few inclines or declines,
and those that are aren't much of them.

By the way, the shoes that brought about that happy ending are Reebok
Premier Road Lite IV.

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug wrote:
But I hope you'll shoot this messenger from time to time, because
dammit I do so enjoy firing back. :-)

Unlike our president who advocates the ready, shoot, aim philosophy, I
going to aim carefully. 🙂

I going to aim carefully too. Unlike past presidents.

Quoted message said:

-Doug

"Michelle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Charlie Pendejo said:

The good news is you don't seem to need exotic motion control, so in
another year or two Dan and Donovan and lance and I will start subtly
egging you on to run in flats. ;-)

*chuckle* So far, I mostly run on flats--very few inclines or
declines,
and those that are aren't much of them.

Run "in" flats not "on" flats shoes not terrain. 🙂

-DF

In article <[email hidden]>,

Doug Freese said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The good news is you don't seem to need exotic motion control, so
in another year or two Dan and Donovan and lance and I will start
subtly egging you on to run in flats. ;-)

*chuckle* So far, I mostly run on flats--very few inclines or
declines, and those that are aren't much of them.

Run "in" flats not "on" flats shoes not terrain. 🙂

I know; I was punning. So what exactly are flats (the shoe kind)?

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

"Michelle" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Run "in" flats not "on" flats shoes not terrain. 🙂

Quoted message said:

I know; I was punning. So what exactly are flats (the shoe kind)?

They are racing shoes -- lighter, more minimalist, sometimes half the weight
or less compared to typical running shoes (also known as trainers). I use
orthotics which control my pronation, so the shoe doesn't need to be fancy.
Hence I run in flats all the time.

I think they're called flats because the heel is usually (but not always)
lower than training shoes. I think this is generally a good thing, because
it lets the Achilles work the way it was designed.

I run about 20-25 sec/mile faster in very light shoes, which is the main
reason I like them.

Michelle said:

He said that it meant that it wasn't a stability or motion-control shoe,
and described what stability and motion-control shoes are. He described
the terms before showing my any shoes.

Even then, it's not an obvious error, because as I think Charlie mentioned,
there are not three clearly delineated categories. For example, the Asics
racer could be called a stability flat (because it's posted), or a "neutral"
one (because the post isn't very big, and it is the brands flagship model).
It's worn by people who wear both stability and cushion trainers.

There are a number of moderate stability models that one could reasonably
recommend to people with no gait problems, and some "cushion" models that
could be worn by people who would normally wear stability shoes.

The manufacturers classification of a shoe is a good starting point for
shopping but it isn't the definitive word.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elflord said:

The manufacturers classification of a shoe is a good starting point
for shopping but it isn't the definitive word.

Congratulations! You got through to me. 🙂

The important thing, though, is that I found a pair of shoes that works
well for me.

I'll try to buy another pair of them, but from the first store, in the
latter half of November or the first half of December. I joined their
club, and one of the perks of membership is to get one-percent off the
price of the shoe for each year of age, if purchased within two weeks of
one's birthday. That would be a 65% discount for me.

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

In article <[email hidden]>,

D Stumpus said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Run "in" flats not "on" flats shoes not terrain. 🙂

Quoted message said:

I know; I was punning. So what exactly are flats (the shoe kind)?

They are racing shoes -- lighter, more minimalist, sometimes half the
weight or less compared to typical running shoes (also known as
trainers). I use orthotics which control my pronation, so the shoe
doesn't need to be fancy. Hence I run in flats all the time.

Thanks.

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

"D Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Michelle" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Run "in" flats not "on" flats shoes not terrain. 🙂

Quoted message said:

I know; I was punning. So what exactly are flats (the shoe kind)?

They are racing shoes -- lighter, more minimalist, sometimes half the
weight or less compared to typical running shoes (also known as
trainers). I use orthotics which control my pronation, so the shoe
doesn't need to be fancy. Hence I run in flats all the time.

Dan,

If you ask any Podiatrist they will tell you that for orthotics to be
effective they need to be in a stability or motion control shoe. The
fact thatt you use them in flats suggest that you only need some minimal
arch support and not much help rolling or you don't really need them.

-Doug

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

If you ask any Podiatrist they will tell you that for orthotics to be
effective they need to be in a stability or motion control shoe. The fact
thatt you use them in flats suggest that you only need some minimal arch
support and not much help rolling or you don't really need them.

I guess I should say "Kids, don't try this at home!" ;-)

My foot rolls inward a ridiculous amount without my orthotics, and
fortunately I find things work fine for me in the 3 flats I've tried...