Opinions on Spoke Breakage Scenario

have you noticed any skin problems? unusual moles, yellowing,
thinninghair, lack of sex drive, do you have a craving for oats?

datakoll said:

have you noticed any skin problems? unusual moles, yellowing,
thinninghair, lack of sex drive, do you have a craving for oats?

Gene:

Please. We get enough [censored] from Ed. Don't add to the stench. Trying
to figure out if I should be harassing my spoke vendor.

D'ohBoy

first thing we gotta know is why ura using a leather saddle with
Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hubs

datakoll said:

first thing we gotta know is why ura using a leather saddle with
Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hubs

Damn, man -

It's a Selle Italia SLR Gel Flow - and has a leather cover.

Dude. Again. Please. If you've nothing of value.

D'ohBoy

D'ohBoy said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Thanks for your input,

D'ohBoy

Without knowing the actual build technique, the first thing that comes
to mind is this - even spoke tension is good but high tension is bad
even if they're all the same. The spoke should have some spec on the
maximum tension. Keep well below this. The fact that you don't know
the NDS tension makes me suspect you had to over compensate to dish
the wheel. Try backing off the tension on the DS a bit, not so much
that the wheel gets soft, but enough so it's easier to dish without
really cranking the NDS. OCR rims were developed in part to eliminate
this problem, so checking the NDS tension should tell you if you have
over stressed to spokes.

zencycle said:

D'ohBoy said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

Quoted message said:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

Quoted message said:

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your input,

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy

Without knowing the actual build technique, the first thing that comes
to mind is this - even spoke tension is good but high tension is bad
even if they're all the same. The spoke should have some spec on the
maximum tension. Keep well below this. The fact that you don't know
the NDS tension makes me suspect you had to over compensate to dish
the wheel. Try backing off the tension on the DS a bit, not so much
that the wheel gets soft, but enough so it's easier to dish without
really cranking the NDS. OCR rims were developed in part to eliminate
this problem, so checking the NDS tension should tell you if you have
over stressed to spokes.

NDS is significantly lower than DS, as one would expect given the
difference in spoke angle (even with the OCR rim). I DO know that the
tension NDS on the tensiometer scale was around 1/2 that of the DS,
and DS ain't breaking. So the NDS spokes aren't "over stressed".

Thanks for your input.

D'ohBoy

D'ohBoy said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Thanks for your input,

D'ohBoy

Is the rim round? That is, no deformity from riding? Broken spokes on
a used wheel generally means that at that spot, tension is low..kinda
like bending a coat hanger back and forth, back and firth...

Might raise tension to a wee bit above 100 kgf, and make sure tension
is even, even if it means you may have a slight 'flat' spot.

zencycle said:

D'ohBoy said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

Quoted message said:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

Quoted message said:

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your input,

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy

Without knowing the actual build technique, the first thing that comes
to mind is this - even spoke tension is good but high tension is bad
even if they're all the same. The spoke should have some spec on the
maximum tension. Keep well below this. The fact that you don't know
the NDS tension makes me suspect you had to over compensate to dish
the wheel. Try backing off the tension on the DS a bit, not so much
that the wheel gets soft, but enough so it's easier to dish without
really cranking the NDS. OCR rims were developed in part to eliminate
this problem, so checking the NDS tension should tell you if you have
over stressed to spokes.

95 kgf is somewhat low for this rim and spoe dimension doesn't matter,
tension is tension..and is determined at max by the rim, not the
spokes.

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com said:

zencycle said:

On Aug 30, 8:47 am, D'ohBoy <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your input,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy

Quoted message said:

Without knowing the actual build technique, the first thing that comes
to mind is this - even spoke tension is good but high tension is bad
even if they're all the same. The spoke should have some spec on the
maximum tension. Keep well below this. The fact that you don't know
the NDS tension makes me suspect you had to over compensate to dish
the wheel. Try backing off the tension on the DS a bit, not so much
that the wheel gets soft, but enough so it's easier to dish without
really cranking the NDS. OCR rims were developed in part to eliminate
this problem, so checking the NDS tension should tell you if you have
over stressed to spokes.

95 kgf is somewhat low for this rim and spoe dimension doesn't matter,
tension is tension..and is determined at max by the rim, not the
spokes.

This is an IRD Cadence. Were you thinking of a Velocity Aerohead?
The rim has a minor out-of-round, and by minor, I mean less than 0.5
mm but not a flat spot per se.

I had to back off of the spoke tension as the rim started to distort
when I got much above my current level. Wondering if the rim just
ain't strong enough for my weight, even given the 32 spokes.

I guess I could try cranking it up again.

D'ohBoy

using a magnifier, bright light, examine inside outside spoke bends
for surface cracks. If you're not familiar with the process, root out
worn spokes from the trash and compare.
There's a dye for this sold at NAPA? entertaining for sure.
The deal is, if cracks show, then scrap the spokes: beats reassembly
and two more snaps.
WPITA!

datakoll said:

using a magnifier, bright light, examine inside outside spoke bends
for surface cracks. If you're not familiar with the process, root out
worn spokes from the trash and compare.
There's a dye for this sold at NAPA? entertaining for sure.
The deal is, if cracks show, then scrap the spokes: beats reassembly
and two more snaps.
WPITA!

BTW, use my teflon wax hub spoke hole lube method! allows generic
spoke survival under load and with exotic hub/spoke combos increases
mechanism efficiency in the torque rod area.

bottoms up!

D'ohBoy said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Thanks for your input,

D'ohBoy

did you stress relieve it jobst-style when building it?

Nate Knutson said:

D'ohBoy said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

Quoted message said:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

Quoted message said:

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your input,

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy

did you stress relieve it jobst-style when building it?

Yes. And again after the first spoke snapped (at the bend too!).

D'ohBoy.

pour some neatsfoot on the hub!
seriously. Nature wants free movement at the hub/spoke bend-
increasingly small with tension so lube as a hole or gap filling layer
both sides. The bend does not gaul, does not crack, as much.

THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE ANTI-SPOKE GAUL CRUSADE

D'ohBoy said:

Nate Knutson said:

On Aug 30, 5:47 am, D'ohBoy <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your input,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy

Quoted message said:

did you stress relieve it jobst-style when building it?

Yes. And again after the first spoke snapped (at the bend too!).

D'ohBoy.

pretty weird.... you mentioned the idea that an under-spec spoke hole
could cause this. i have no idea about that -seems like snugger has to
be better and i don't see how it could increase fatigue to the spoke-
but maybe an over-spec spoke hole could cause this, the same way that
if you use a 1.8/1.6 spoke in a spoke hole that's way too large for
it, the elbow won't be properly supported. but this probably isn't
whats going on, of course.

seems like blaming the spokes is pretty reasonable.

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

D'ohBoy said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Thanks for your input,

You did not say that you stress relieved the
spokes of the fully tensioned wheel.
This is the step that most reduces the rate
of spoke fracture at the elbow.

--
Michael Press

D'ohBoy said:

I just don't get why this is happening.

Are they laced heads-in or out? I'm thinking heads-in if you are
getting 1/2 tension on the NDS with an OC rim. I think it is important
to bend the spoke elbows so the spokes point towards the rim (or even
a little past) without bending stress. I do this on radial spokes with
a rubber hammer, when there is significant tension in the spokes but
not the final amount.

D'ohBoy said:

All of a sudden, two spokes have broken in two weeks. Here are the
details:

- Broken spokes were Radial-spoked CX-Ray NDS Rear
- 32 hole OCR rim/Record Hub
- Spoke tension is very even - I use a tensiometer
- Breakage is at the bend
- 2000 or so miles on the set, problem-free prior

I just don't get why this is happening. Bad spokes? I saw it
suggested elsewhere that a under-spec spoke hole (diameter) in the hub
could cause this as well. DS is around 95 kgf. NDS is whatever it
took to dish it properly (didn't do the conversion, just made sure
they were evenly tensioned).

Thanks for your input,

D'ohBoy

I'm no expert, but the last time I had trouble with spokes breaking, the
LBS found that my Mavic rim had a cracked spoke hole. They ordered
another Mavic rim, and I kept breaking spokes. By the third spoke and
rebuild, the replacement rim showed _ten_ cracked spoke holes!

I got a Velocity Aerohead rim, as it was the only one I could find with
blue anodizing (Mavic stopped making them, the scoundrels!).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

did you stress relieve it jobst-style when building it?

Yes. And again after the first spoke snapped (at the bend too!).

D'ohBoy.

Stress-relieving isn't the whole story. Very important that, when you first
build it up, *before* putting much tension on the spokes, that you
physically bend the spokes over, at the head, so they take a nice, straight
path from hub to rim. Stress-relieving tends to accomplish this by default
(when grasping adjacent spokes and pulling them together), but you're best
off to first make sure that path is perfectly straight. This will make
tensioning the wheel easier as well, because you're not fighting the spoke
(forcing it to straighten out) as you tighten it. It's already straight.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com