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29 September 2007
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Mark
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  1. On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:31:54 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    Within the context of the whole book, put in the simplest terms, the
    author recommends that a tensiometer be used to measure proper spoke
    tension.

    [snip]

    Dear Spike,

    Jobst does indeed suggest _measuring_ proper spoke tension with the
    tensiometer.

    But that's not the same as _finding_ the proper tension.

    (Unfortunately, Jobst wrote "establishing proper tension" when it
    turns out that he means "recording proper tension," which can give the
    wrong impression, but he goes on to explain what he means so clearly
    that there's no question how he thinks proper tension should be
    determined.)

    Jobst explicitly states that proper tension must _first_ be determined
    by either raising tension until the wheel goes out of true when spoke
    pairs are squeezed, or else until spoke windup becomes excessive.

    That is closer to Jim Beam's description of raising tension as high as
    the wheel can stand than anything else is ever going to be.

    There is no practical way to raise a wheel's tension past where it
    will go out of true if you squeeze spoke pairs or past where the spoke
    windup becomes excessive.

    Here's the passage again, with the clarifying sentence emphasized:

    "The final tension of a wheel built by feel is affected by the mood of
    its builder. By using a tension measuring tool a builder can establish
    proper tension, then repeat it. Such a tool, a tensiometer, measures
    the deflection of a spoke over a given span in response to a standard
    load. The dial is calibrated in tension or displacement. Either
    measure is equally useful for wheel building. It is not necessary to
    know the actual tension but only that the tension has reached the
    desired mark. The correct maximum tension for a specific wheel design
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    must still be determined first by stress relieving. For some deep
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    section rims or wheels with few spokes, the limit of tension is
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    reached when spokes can no longer be tightened further without
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    excessive windup. For subsequent wheels of the same type the
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    tensiometer can accurately and quickly determine whether spokes have
    reached the predetermined tension."

    --"The Bicycle Wheel," 3rd edition

    It is a modern mistake, an anachronism, for us to think that "The
    Bicycle Wheel" says to use a tensiometer to set the spoke tension to
    some manufacturer's recommended value.

    Many RBT posters do indeed use tensiometers to set tension to
    recommended values (no explanation of how those values were derived
    has appeared on RBT).

    But Jobst did _not_ say anything at all about manufacturer's
    recommended tensions. In fact, it's unlikely that there were any such
    recommendations back then.

    He wrote a book in 1981 that plainly tells how to find proper tension
    by setting it as high as possible. He updated it in 1993 to include
    deep rims and low-spoke-count rims.

    He can't say it any plainer--raise the tension until a fairly hefty
    36-spoke rim goes out of true when spoke pairs are squeezed, or else
    until a deep or low-spoke-count rim's spokes show excessive windup.

    No tensiometer is involved in finding the proper tension, which Jobst
    wrote is as high as the wheel can bear without deforming either the
    rim or the spokes.

    Much of the debate about this is merely the conflict between the old
    and the new.

    In 1981, Jobst explained how we could set high tension on 36-spoke MA2
    rims, which could generally stand such tension, despite a few photos
    of MA2's cracking at the spoke holes.

    It seems like a perfectly sound approach for sturdy rims in an era
    where tensiometers were scarce and manufacturers' recommendations
    probably even scarcer. (I'm curious to see what the earliest published
    tension recommendation was from any major manufacturer.)

    But nowadays rims are often lighter, have deep sections, and have low
    spoke counts. We often hear of rim cracking. Jim Beam's point is
    mostly that manufacturers recommend lower tensions for many rims than
    what the sensible 1981 method provides.

    In any case, we do Jobst no service by misunderstanding what he
    plainly wrote about how to build a wheel to what was a proper tension
    a quarter of a century ago.

    And we do ourselves no service by insisting that Jim Beam is wrong
    when he points out that Jobst's method involves the highest tension
    that the wheel can stand.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  2. Jambo said:

    "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tom 'Johnny Sunset' Sherman said:

    I wonder if "jim" has a macro for anti-Jobst replies?


    that's "corrective", not "anti-jobst".

    That's "anti-Jobst", not "corrective".


    but being a moron doesn't mean one has to be anti-intelligent. except
    in your case of course.

  3. [email hidden] wrote:
    <snip for brevity>

    Quoted message said:

    It would be nice if there was a single, easy, and all encompassing
    answer to the question: What's The Proper Tension? But, such an answer
    is not possible; the situation does not allow for it.

    that's absolutely untrue. if a manufacturer does the testing necessary,
    then publishes their findings in the form of a spoke tension spec, that
    /is/ "Proper Tension".

    Quoted message said:

    The author of
    course knows this, and so doesn't provide such an answer.

    no, the author doesn't understand that strength is not increased by
    increasing spoke tension. and he doesn't understand the nature of the
    materials.

    he's even confused about what he's witnessing with his "finite element"
    load calculation. all he's seeing is deformation of an elastic rim
    causing a change in spoke tension where the deformation is - a perfectly
    rigid rim would not deform there and so spoke tension figures would be
    completely different, leading of course to a completely different
    conclusion and therefore wheel theory.

    Quoted message said:

    A few
    readers, I imagine, are disappointed. Bizarrely, one individual
    gives the author an answer and then says he is wrong.

    you mean that i disagree with the theoretical arguments? yes i do. and
    for the reasons i've explained. you may want to dispute them, in which
    case, feel free to present your own technical reasoning, but don't just
    say it's wrong because you don't understand or don't want to know.

  4. Peter Cole said:
    jim beam said:

    Peter Cole wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Mavic (and most others I presume) spec a min and max. I haven't seen
    anyone (including Jobst) recommending using more than the max spec.
    So what's the problem?

    what is numerical about "as high as the rim can bear"??? modern deep
    profile rims can take much more stress before they buckle, but the
    alloy from which they are made is just as anisotropic and very similar
    in yield. a rim stiff enough to take double spoke tension [as
    determined by the jobstian method] before buckling isn't going to make
    rims last very long when it comes to cracking. use of a tensiometer
    is therefore essential.

    Jobst excluded heavy and/or deep section and/or low spoke count rims
    from his alternate method.

    only because they weren't around at the time of original writing. he's
    had plenty of opportunity to revisit since. and has steadfastly refused.

    regarding spoke tension, jobst is incorrect when he says reducing spoke
    count should increase spoke tension. there is /no/ reason a rim should
    keep "constant" compression in this way. and tension does not increase
    the strength of a wheel. hence, if you check manufacturer tension
    figures for rims with different spoke counts, you'll find the same
    tension spec regardless of count. but this is unsurprising if you also
    consider that increasing tension increases spoke cracking at the point
    of loading.

    Quoted message said:


    If you had a tensiometer, and a manufacturer's max spoke tension spec.,
    it would seem obvious to anyone to use both.

    the book doesn't even begin to say that, it simply rattles on about
    increasing spoke tension to the point of rim buckling.

    Quoted message said:

    The obvious context of his
    method is where a spec and perhaps even a tensiometer weren't available.

    that's not the case today. $60 buys you a tensiometer. no excuse not
    to buy and use it at that price.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You seem to be sure that Jobst's alternate method will produce higher
    than max spec spoke tensions. How do you know that?

    because i've tried it!

    I don't believe you've reported this before.

    no one has asked before.

    Quoted message said:

    What rim and what was your
    final tension?

    x517 = ~#"27" average over 5 spokes on the park gauge. for a 1.8mm
    spoke, that's >175kgf.
    x618 = ~#"26" average over 5 spokes. that's ~=175kgf.

    the others i've since re-tensioned but the open pros were in that range.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I've used lots of wheels, Mavic & others, the only cracking I ever
    got was with Mavic Reflex rims (2). I don't know what tension they
    were built to,

    er,...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't think it was very high,

    that's a cop-out - for someone purporting to be an engineer, it's also
    remarkably incurious.

    Quoted message said:

    they had to be Locktited.

    eh? aren't you one of those that condemns loctite?

    I cite the Locktite as evidence they weren't too high. I didn't build
    the wheel.

    "i didn't build that wheel". that's the excuse you used last time.
    what you don't acknowledge is that it means you therefore also don't
    know the full history.

    Quoted message said:

    It was my first bike purchase when I reentered cycling many
    years ago. I only became curious after the fact when a wheel that had to
    be Locktited to keep nipples from unscrewing also cracked spoke holes. I
    started learning about wheels. That was my last wheel to use Locktite.
    Also my last one to crack.

    see above.

  5. Jambo said:

    "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Specifically, which 36 hole, conventional cross-section rim of 430 or
    less grams did you try this on


    i've done this test on several wheels with different rims - mavic open
    pro, x517, x618, etc. and of course, an ma2. spoke count and lacing make
    no difference.

    Then you should be able to post pictures of these on your little flickr
    website. At least 4 rims mentioned there.

    you know, i could. but since a wheel with excess tension looks
    /identical/ to one with rim manufacturer spec tension, i figured nobody
    would be moronic enough to consider it necessary. obviously, i hadn't
    taken your "special needs" into account. moron.

  6. Quoted message said:
    jim beam said:

    [email hidden] wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I've learned from previous threads to not believe anything you say.


    that's a personal issue for you spike.

    Actually, it's not a personal issue; it's a personal observation. The
    same observation made by many others who have read your posts.
    --
    Spike


    you want to align yourself with jambo???

  7. Peter Cole said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sorry, but people aren't actually reading "The Bicycle Wheel," which
    is probably why they don't quote it.

    The book does _say_ to use a tensiometer to determine the correct
    tension, but only in the sense of measuring an already established
    correct tension for later use in building the next identical wheel.

    To me, this would presume no manufacturer's spec on max spoke tension.
    Otherwise, if you had a max spec and a tensiometer, why exceed it?

    Quoted message said:

    The book says that the correct tension is _first_ determined by other
    methods, namely raising tension on 36-spoke count wheels until
    squeezing spoke pairs together produces a deformed wheel or when the
    spokes on low-count or deep-section wheels can no longer be tightened
    without excessive windup:

    Quoted message said:

    Obviously, deep-section 36-spoke rims can stand more tension before
    distorting than MA-2's.

    What this approach does is determine the maximum spoke tension by
    finding the rim buckling point and then backing off considerably to
    establish a safety margin.

    The buckling point is determined by the rim cross section (thin column
    buckling). The load that causes this buckling is circumferential
    compression. It's not obvious to me that the wider, less tall cross
    sections of older rims like the MA-2 buckled under less load than the
    newer narrow/tall cross sections (Reflex, Open Pro). My guess is that
    the MA-2 would be (a little) more buckle resistant, if anything.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm not arguing about wheel-building methods, just pointing out that
    people who want to claim that Jobst's book says something ought to
    provide quotes to back up their claims.

    As far as I can see, Jim Beam's description is closer to being
    accurate--the book says to raise tension until the rim fails to stay
    in shape if you squeeze the spoke pairs, or to tighten low-count
    spokes until the spoke wind-up reaches some undefined "excessive"
    point.

    There is nothing wrong with this method until the spoke tension exceeds
    that which the spoke bed can take without cracking. Presumably, it is
    that limit which is reflected in the manufacturer's maximum spoke
    tension spec. -- for those who publish such things.

    A quick look at online data seems to show Sun recommending 110kg max for
    all road rims, and Mavic 70-90kg for "classic" rims. This would seem to
    indicate Mavic rims have weaker spoke beds, at least in "classic" rims,
    something many of us have observed directly. Other Mavic rims have max
    tension spec up to 160kg.

    My question was what is the actual tension achieved with Jobst's method
    using rims that fit his criteria. He implies that will get you to around
    100kg.

    how does he "imply" it? he does not discuss tension numerically in this
    context at all.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The only example of specific tension in the 3rd edition is this: "If
    its spokes are tensioned to 1000 N, a 36-spoke wheel will support
    approximately 400 kg."

    Quoted message said:

    The 1,000 Newtons mentioned is just an example for an ensuing
    discussion of when spokes might go slack, not a specific tension
    recommendation. It's the equivalent of 102 kgf, and a common figure
    for many wheels today.

    All the equations in the back of the book seem to take 100kg as nominal
    spoke tension. I assumed that the "buckle point" method got him there
    with the typical rims he referenced, otherwise I don't know why he'd use
    it as a nominal number.

    but he doesn't say that! for all we know, "100" simply makes the math
    easier for the example.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In any case, Jobst expects that to be reduced by 30% through the
    constriction of the inflated tire:

    Quoted message said:

    (see Equation 8 in Part III). Its effect on
    spoke tension can be detected with a tensiometer."

    One of us is misunderstanding that equation. I interpret it to mean that
    the circumferential force from tire inflation nets (compression minus
    expansion) to ~400N. Immediately above in equation #7, he calculates the
    compressive rim force from spoke tension at 5730N, roughly a 7% change
    in spoke tension, assuming a purely linear effect.

    I don't understand what this has to do with anything, though.

    Quoted message said:

    If so (and it's just a theory that tension recommendations were scarce
    or non-existent), then Jobst was simply suggesting that using a
    tensiometer to record whatever tension you found best by using other
    methods was a quick and convenient way to build the next wheel.

    That's what he said. If spoke breakage isn't a limit (as shown), then
    the only limits to spoke tension are rim buckling and bed cracking.
    Buckling can be experimentally determined easily with his method.

    but cracking can't!!!

    Quoted message said:


    As for bed cracking, if Jobst's method gets you to 100kg for "classic"
    rims, you're good for all Sun road rims (according to them), but a bit
    high for Mavic. Since Mavic knows how to make rims that can take 160kg
    or more,

    which rim? i've called them and they didn't say that high on any of the
    rims i asked about. and that statement doesn't address cracking at all.

    Quoted message said:

    it seems like they made their "classics" a bit on the dainty
    side. Perhaps they should have made that better known -- even a feature:
    "Our rims require 20% less spoke tension!".

    typical peter cole.

  8. Quoted message said:


    And there's Talbot's Designing and Building Your Own Frameset, but I
    had no idea it was so expensive now. I'll have to move mine to the
    safe!

    http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Building-Your-Own-Frameset/dp/0960241833

    Cheers,


    $75+pp buys a current Paterek manual which is actually usefull instead
    of a romantic document of a bygone era😉

    --
    /Marten

    info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

  9. jim beam' aka evan williams said:

    ...
    he's even confused about what he's witnessing with his "finite element"
    load calculation. all he's seeing is deformation of an elastic rim
    causing a change in spoke tension where the deformation is - a perfectly
    rigid rim would not deform there and so spoke tension figures would be
    completely different, leading of course to a completely different
    conclusion and therefore wheel theory....

    Where can I buy some of these perfectly rigid rims?

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  10. Tom 'Johnny Sunset' Sherman said:
    jim beam' aka evan williams said:

    ...
    he's even confused about what he's witnessing with his "finite
    element" load calculation. all he's seeing is deformation of an
    elastic rim causing a change in spoke tension where the deformation is
    - a perfectly rigid rim would not deform there and so spoke tension
    figures would be completely different, leading of course to a
    completely different conclusion and therefore wheel theory....

    Where can I buy some of these perfectly rigid rims?


    you're an engineer aren't you? you need to consider theory and
    understand concepts properly before you can progress to practice and
    have any hope of understanding what's actually going on.

  11. On Oct 1, 3:33 pm, Anthony DeLorenzo <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Mark said:

    I wondered if there is a book
    that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows
    pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book
    does for auto repair.

    Hi Mark,

    I noticed that (before the thread shifted to a discussion on
    wheelbuilding) no one mentioned the four-volume Barnett's manual. It
    uses detailed step-by-step procedures. I've been very happy with it.

    Regards,
    Anthony

    Thanks I will look for that one. I sent an email to Schwinn today
    too, but so far no one has answered it to see what their
    recommendation happens to be. Ideally they have one that is for my
    specific bike, but frankly I doubt it. They did put their owners
    manuals online, but it was the same manual for almost every bike they
    make. Big help that is.

  12. On 2007-10-02, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    regarding spoke tension, jobst is incorrect when he says reducing spoke
    count should increase spoke tension. there is /no/ reason a rim should
    keep "constant" compression in this way. and tension does not increase
    the strength of a wheel. hence, if you check manufacturer tension
    figures for rims with different spoke counts, you'll find the same
    tension spec regardless of count.

    Is that basically because low-spoke-count rims are stiffer?

    If I hypothetically build with a normal MA-2, but leave out every other
    spoke, then will I need more tension in the 18 I've got to avoid slack
    spokes for a given load than I would have done if I'd used all 36?

  13. Ben C said:

    On 2007-10-02, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    regarding spoke tension, jobst is incorrect when he says reducing spoke
    count should increase spoke tension. there is /no/ reason a rim should
    keep "constant" compression in this way. and tension does not increase
    the strength of a wheel. hence, if you check manufacturer tension
    figures for rims with different spoke counts, you'll find the same
    tension spec regardless of count.

    Is that basically because low-spoke-count rims are stiffer?

    If I hypothetically build with a normal MA-2, but leave out every other
    spoke, then will I need more tension in the 18 I've got to avoid slack
    spokes for a given load than I would have done if I'd used all 36?

    Dear Ben,

    I _think_ that the idea is that yes, deep low-count rims are stiffer.

    Jobst added that distinction in the 3rd edition in 1993 when he said
    either raise the tension until the wheel goes out of true when spoke
    pairs are squeezed, or--

    Raise the tension until the spokes start to wind up "excessively" with
    deep or low-spoke-count rims.

    The original method for finding the highest tension doesn't work on
    the deeper, stronger rims of low-count rims. They're stiffer and don't
    distort as easily.

    (To use an extreme example, imagine trying to raise the tension on a
    motorcycle rear rim until the rim went out of true when you squeezed
    spoke pairs. Ain't gonna happen. You couldn't squeeze the spokes
    enough to notice anything, and they'd pull through the rim long before
    it tacoed. For a less extreme example, try applying "The Bicycle
    Wheel" original method for 27-inch and 700c bicycle wheels to a small,
    wide recumbent wheel.)

    Again, "The Bicycle Wheel" was a sensible book written before the
    traditional 36 spoke wheel, 5-6-7 speed clusters, and friction
    shifters of 1981 were pretty much replaced by modern low-spoke-count
    deep rims, 8-9-10 speed clusters, and Ergo or STI brifters.

    Jobst's method of raising the tension until a hefty 450 gram 36-spoke
    MA2 couldn't hold its shape when spoke pairs were squeezed seems quite
    practical. After all, MA2 rims built that way last pretty well,
    despite a few photos of cracking around the spoke holes. The MA2 could
    stand spoke tension higher than it could stay true, so Jobst's
    approach was fine. If Mavic did recommend a maximum spoke tension for
    the MA2 back in 1981, Jobst's method probably came pretty close to it.

    (I suspect that there simply weren't any manufacturer recommended
    spoke tensions back then because tension gauges were rare and the
    technology was primitive. I'd love to have someone post the earliest
    material of that kind that can be found.

    But Jim Beam often points out that most modern manufacturers do _not_
    recommend twice the tension when modern wheels have half the spokes,
    even though the spokes can stand that much tension. The rims don't
    need twice the tension to stay true, but will often crack at the spoke
    holes if builders keep turning the spoke nipples. Jim has repeatedly
    told us that modern deep rims are surprisingly strong without _any_
    spokes, and I haven't seen anyone refute this.

    Whether the move to deep, low-spoke-count rims is good or bad, the
    modern rims may be a significantly different breed of cat. Tension
    high enough to avoid spokes going loose may be impractical, as
    suggested by numerous threads about how to lock the nipples. With any
    given rim, cracking around the spoke holes is an obvious indication
    that the spoke tension is too high for the design--and if the design
    is desired, then lowering the spoke tension is the solution.

    Most road pros have used deep, low-spoke-count rims for years. Riders
    like Armstrong train 20,000 miles or more per year. They may just swap
    the wheels out before problems can surface, but my impression is that
    broken spokes have not been much of a problem in this century for the
    riders who put considerable strain on them.

    The more I look at the wheel wars as history, the more it seems to
    explain things. Jobst's methods work very well for the sturdy 36-spoke
    rims that were the standard when he wrote "The Bicycle Wheel," but
    those methods may not be of much use with deep, low-spoke-count rims.

    Unfortunately, Jobst and Jim Beam tend to dismiss the new/old wheels
    as bad, rather than trying to understand the differences. Jobst
    considers modern deep low-spoke-count wheels flimsy and badly
    designed, while Jim Beam feels that MA2's were buggy whips full of
    obvious flaws.

    Your question about whether you'd want more spoke tension if you built
    an MA2 with only 18 spokes illustrates the problem.

    The MA2 was never designed to be a low-spoke-count rim. It's a sturdy
    36-hole design. (It has some drawbacks, as Jim Beam often points out,
    but _all_ rims have drawbacks.)

    If you want to use only 18 spokes, then you need a modern deep rim
    that's designed for a low spoke count. (You can get some bad modern
    rims, of course, but you could get bad 36-spoke rims back in 1981,
    too.)

    To reverse the question, what good would it do to add 18 spokes to a
    modern deep low-spoke-count rim? It's already stiff and strong enough
    to do the job its way. (No one ever argued that the MA2 would have
    been improved by going to 48 holes.)

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  14. On 2007-10-02, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    The more I look at the wheel wars as history...


    [...]

    Excellent summary, and those are very much the same conclusions I have
    also picked out of the flames of the discussions here.

  15. jim beam said:
    Peter Cole said:
    jim beam said:

    Peter Cole wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    > Mavic (and most others I presume) spec a min and max. I haven't seen
    > anyone (including Jobst) recommending using more than the max spec.
    > So what's the problem?

    what is numerical about "as high as the rim can bear"??? modern deep
    profile rims can take much more stress before they buckle, but the
    alloy from which they are made is just as anisotropic and very
    similar in yield. a rim stiff enough to take double spoke tension
    [as determined by the jobstian method] before buckling isn't going to
    make rims last very long when it comes to cracking. use of a
    tensiometer is therefore essential.

    Jobst excluded heavy and/or deep section and/or low spoke count rims
    from his alternate method.

    only because they weren't around at the time of original writing. he's
    had plenty of opportunity to revisit since. and has steadfastly refused.

    He explicitly excluded them. He realized that his rule of thumb would
    only apply to rims with specific characteristics.

    Quoted message said:

    regarding spoke tension, jobst is incorrect when he says reducing spoke
    count should increase spoke tension. there is /no/ reason a rim should
    keep "constant" compression in this way. and tension does not increase
    the strength of a wheel. hence, if you check manufacturer tension
    figures for rims with different spoke counts, you'll find the same
    tension spec regardless of count. but this is unsurprising if you also
    consider that increasing tension increases spoke cracking at the point
    of loading.

    Increasing spoke tension does make a stronger wheel. The higher the
    initial tension, the greater the load the wheel can support before the
    spokes go slack. Slack spokes don't support the rim from buckling.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you had a tensiometer, and a manufacturer's max spoke tension
    spec., it would seem obvious to anyone to use both.

    the book doesn't even begin to say that, it simply rattles on about
    increasing spoke tension to the point of rim buckling.

    This was a method to determine the maximum spoke tension for a specific
    category of rims, as determined by rim buckling. He never said that you
    should exceed manufacturer's spec for maximum tension. You could claim
    he implied that, but why would he? That seems absurd on the face o it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The obvious context of his method is where a spec and perhaps even a
    tensiometer weren't available.

    that's not the case today. $60 buys you a tensiometer. no excuse not
    to buy and use it at that price.

    Well, by your logic, if there's no real minimum tension, why bother?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > You seem to be sure that Jobst's alternate method will produce
    > higher than max spec spoke tensions. How do you know that?

    because i've tried it!

    I don't believe you've reported this before.

    no one has asked before.

    Quoted message said:

    What rim and what was your final tension?

    x517 = ~#"27" average over 5 spokes on the park gauge. for a 1.8mm
    spoke, that's >175kgf.
    x618 = ~#"26" average over 5 spokes. that's ~=175kgf.

    the others i've since re-tensioned but the open pros were in that range.

    Of course the first 2 rims are 559, since the buckle load varies with
    the square of length, that alone will give you a 25% or so error.

    If those are your final tensions, then your buckle tensions must have
    been over 200kg -- into plastic region of the spokes. I'm a little
    skeptical that, especially the Open Pro -- a rim that should have a
    lower buckle limit (lower moment of inertia) than the MA2's Jobst
    measured could take that much compression.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > I've used lots of wheels, Mavic & others, the only cracking I ever
    > got was with Mavic Reflex rims (2). I don't know what tension they
    > were built to,

    er,...

    > I don't think it was very high,

    that's a cop-out - for someone purporting to be an engineer, it's
    also remarkably incurious.

    > they had to be Locktited.

    eh? aren't you one of those that condemns loctite?

    I cite the Locktite as evidence they weren't too high. I didn't build
    the wheel.

    "i didn't build that wheel". that's the excuse you used last time. what
    you don't acknowledge is that it means you therefore also don't know the
    full history.

    I know the "full history". It was built, I rode it, the left spokes
    loosened, they were Locktited, the rim developed cracking around the
    spoke holes in low mileage, a replacement rim went through the same
    thing. A replacement Open Pro (same builder, also Loctited) lasted until
    the brake track wore through (>10K mi).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It was my first bike purchase when I reentered cycling many years ago.
    I only became curious after the fact when a wheel that had to be
    Locktited to keep nipples from unscrewing also cracked spoke holes. I
    started learning about wheels. That was my last wheel to use Locktite.
    Also my last one to crack.

    see above.

    see below above.

  16. jim beam said:

    Peter Cole wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    My question was what is the actual tension achieved with Jobst's
    method using rims that fit his criteria. He implies that will get you
    to around 100kg.

    how does he "imply" it? he does not discuss tension numerically in this
    context at all.

    No, but he does use that figure in several places in the book.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    All the equations in the back of the book seem to take 100kg as
    nominal spoke tension. I assumed that the "buckle point" method got
    him there with the typical rims he referenced, otherwise I don't know
    why he'd use it as a nominal number.

    but he doesn't say that! for all we know, "100" simply makes the math
    easier for the example.

    Right, it's all even numbers.... like it makes a difference to the FEA
    program.

    The 1000N figure is a nominal in many places, like spokes operating at
    1/3 yield.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's what he said. If spoke breakage isn't a limit (as shown), then
    the only limits to spoke tension are rim buckling and bed cracking.
    Buckling can be experimentally determined easily with his method.

    but cracking can't!!!

    No, and manufacturer's are free to make the spoke beds as thin as they
    wish. Your claim is that Jobst's method of finding the buckle point and
    backing off will result in spoke tensions of 175kg. That would be twice
    the max limit of Mavic "classic" rims. Perhaps the spoke beds in the
    Open Pro, etc. are 1/2 the strength of the MA2. I don't know why Jobst
    would suggest a method that would give 175kg final then use 100kg
    everywhere in the book. I'm not too bad with a spoke wrench, but I can't
    imagine getting a wheel to 175, never mind the 200 you claim.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    As for bed cracking, if Jobst's method gets you to 100kg for "classic"
    rims, you're good for all Sun road rims (according to them), but a bit
    high for Mavic. Since Mavic knows how to make rims that can take 160kg
    or more,

    which rim? i've called them and they didn't say that high on any of the
    rims i asked about. and that statement doesn't address cracking at all.

    Their data sheets are online, that's where I got the numbers.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it seems like they made their "classics" a bit on the dainty side.
    Perhaps they should have made that better known -- even a feature:
    "Our rims require 20% less spoke tension!".

    typical peter cole.

    OK, the maximum spoke tension spec on their "classic" rims is more than
    20% less than Sun's. I see that as an admission that their spoke beds
    are that much weaker -- unless they're going by buckle limit. How else
    could you interpret it?

  17. Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:27:39 -0500, Ben C <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If I hypothetically build with a normal MA-2, but leave out every other
    spoke, then will I need more tension in the 18 I've got to avoid slack
    spokes for a given load than I would have done if I'd used all 36?

    Yes.

    Quoted message said:


    Dear Ben,

    I _think_ that the idea is that yes, deep low-count rims are stiffer.

    Stiffer radially, which they must be because they have a greater
    unsupported span. Not necessarily stiffer in buckle.

    Quoted message said:

    But Jim Beam often points out that most modern manufacturers do _not_
    recommend twice the tension when modern wheels have half the spokes,
    even though the spokes can stand that much tension.

    http://www.tech-mavic.com/tech-mavic/technical_manual/data/docs/products/2_119.pdf
    ("Classic rims"😉
    Respect the appropriate spoke tensions; Mavic recommends spoke tensions
    between 70 and 90 kg (for a front or rear wheel on the free wheel side
    with a crossed 3 pattern). Inappropriate spoke tension can generate too
    much stress and damage the rim;

    http://www.tech-mavic.com/tech-mavic/technical_manual/data/docs/products/2_147.pdf

    KSYRIUM EQUIPE 08
    (20 spoke rear)

    TENSION:
    Front: 80 to 90 kg
    Rear drive side: 130 to 145 kg

    Quoted message said:

    Jim has repeatedly
    told us that modern deep rims are surprisingly strong without _any_
    spokes, and I haven't seen anyone refute this.

    Why does Mavic have a minimum spoke tension?

  18. Ben C said:

    On 2007-10-02, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    regarding spoke tension, jobst is incorrect when he says reducing spoke
    count should increase spoke tension. there is /no/ reason a rim should
    keep "constant" compression in this way. and tension does not increase
    the strength of a wheel. hence, if you check manufacturer tension
    figures for rims with different spoke counts, you'll find the same
    tension spec regardless of count.

    Is that basically because low-spoke-count rims are stiffer?

    If I hypothetically build with a normal MA-2, but leave out every other
    spoke, then will I need more tension in the 18 I've got to avoid slack
    spokes for a given load than I would have done if I'd used all 36?

    Since the rim has the same rigidity, it's likely
    that the flattened area at the bottom when loaded
    will be about the same. This is the zone of
    spoke tension reduction, which is about 4 spokes
    on a 36 hole wheel, so the load will be borne
    by tension reduction in only 2 spokes. IOW,
    each wheel revolution causes a load cycling in
    the spokes which is 2x the load cycling in a
    36 hole wheel. Under perfect conditions, if you
    load with 50 kg, the tension reduction is only
    25 kgf per spoke, but transient loads may be
    higher. The radial stiffness of a deep rim will
    distribute the load over more spokes at any given
    time.

    There's another issue from the fact that box rims are
    not as stiff radially as something like a Deep-V,
    and probably a bit less stiff side-to-side. With
    only 18 spokes, it will be harder to get the rim
    radially true and keep it that way. Also for
    side-to-side runout. So you might have both
    spoke lifetime and trueness issues.

    Practice shows rules of thumb which were generally
    built on experience. Box section rims like Open
    Pros (and maybe MA-40s, GEL 280s, etc) are/were
    available in 28 hole drillings. 28 hole box rim
    wheels are generally regarded as less reliable than
    32, for both spoke breakage and taco reasons, I think.
    Less than 28 holes were rare, except for superlight
    hillclimb type wheels, and that's almost certainly
    for a good reason.

    Ben

  19. jim beam said:

    [email hidden] wrote:
    <snip for brevity>

    Quoted message said:

    It would be nice if there was a single, easy, and all encompassing
    answer to the question: What's The Proper Tension? But, such an answer
    is not possible; the situation does not allow for it.

    that's absolutely untrue. if a manufacturer does the testing necessary,
    then publishes their findings in the form of a spoke tension spec, that
    /is/ "Proper Tension".

    It's also "what the rim will bear" -- *their* rim.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The author of
    course knows this, and so doesn't provide such an answer.

    no, the author doesn't understand that strength is not increased by
    increasing spoke tension.

    Of course it is.

    Most of the stiffness (lateral and radial) of a wheel is provided by the
    spokes.

    This stiffness disappears when the spokes go slack.

    The amount of load a wheel can take before spokes go slack is
    proportional to the spoke tension.

    Spoke tension compresses the rim.

    Compression will cause the rim to buckle once it exceeds the amount that
    the spokes can constrain.

    Wheel loading doesn't significantly change rim compression.

    Therefore, the higher the spoke tension, the stronger the wheel, up to
    the point where the rim buckles.

    If rim manufacturer's want to shave grams off the spoke bed and sell
    rims that have to be run with much lower spoke tension than the other
    components (hubs, spokes, nipples) can bear, that's their choice. It
    doesn't make it a better rim, it does make for a weaker wheel.

    Quoted message said:

    and he doesn't understand the nature of the
    materials.

    Like what? Endurance limit of spokes? That's a dead horse. "Vacuum
    degassing"? Done that, too. "Anisotropy of extrusions"? How come Mavic
    can make some rims that can take >160kg? Why can all Sun's take more?

    Quoted message said:

    he's even confused about what he's witnessing with his "finite element"
    load calculation. all he's seeing is deformation of an elastic rim
    causing a change in spoke tension where the deformation is

    Elastic rim *and* elastic spokes. So what? BTW, he's not only "seeing",
    he's modeling in a very precise and provably correct manner.

    Quoted message said:

    - a perfectly
    rigid rim would not deform there and so spoke tension figures would be
    completely different, leading of course to a completely different
    conclusion and therefore wheel theory.

    Who cares about a "perfectly rigid rim"? What's this "wheel theory"?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    A few
    readers, I imagine, are disappointed. Bizarrely, one individual
    gives the author an answer and then says he is wrong.

    you mean that i disagree with the theoretical arguments? yes i do. and
    for the reasons i've explained.

    Except you've explained nothing.

    Quoted message said:

    you may want to dispute them, in which
    case, feel free to present your own technical reasoning, but don't just
    say it's wrong because you don't understand or don't want to know.

    When shall we expect your FEA?

  20. jim beam said:

    [email hidden] wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Everyone would be aware of this either from their own knowledge,
    experience and common sense or from having read Jobst's book. Nothing
    like stating the obvious as if it's an original and profound
    revelation from the sage of RBT, jim - never in doubt, often in error
    - beam.

    "obvious"? it's apparently not "obvious" to jobst since he doesn't
    cover this in his book. kind of a serious omission since the excess
    spoke tension his procedure causes is directly responsible for rim
    destruction that costs consumers and manufacturers a small fortune.

    Cover what? A specific manufacturer's specific max tension limit? Should
    he have an appendix? Monthly updates? Why not just have Mavic be more up
    front about their rims? Like a sticker: Warning! Do not exceed spoke
    tension of 90kg or your rims will crack! That should do it. They could
    add it to all the useless stickers they plaster their rims with. After
    all, they say just that in the "tech" manual they hide (password
    protected) on their crappy flash site.

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