Here we go again

Conor said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Silk says...

Quoted message said:

Lorry Drivers should know where they're going.

Why? Do you think it's feasible for a person to know the location of
absolutely every single street in the UK?

Quoted message said:

Also, with satnavs now
below 100 quid, there's no need to stop to ask directions.

Except there is. I take it you've never done deliveries to any
extent.

Here's a delivery address I once got with a trailer loaded with paper
reels:

Grange Storage
West Yorkshire.

You wouldn't have found that with a paper map - why expect the SatNav to
find it?

Quoted message said:

That was it. West Yorkshire is a bloody big place. Turned out to be
down Grange Road in Batley in the end.

Right, so when you found that out - you could put it a SatNav and it would
take you there.

Quoted message said:

Most of the addresses on the CMR notes for imported loads are a bag of
bollocks.

How does that make a SatNav redundent?

Quoted message said:

I've also had countless "P.O.Box No.." addresses with no
street name on. Then there's the ones in the middle of nowhere down a
pokey single lane track where you really want to be sure that's
exactly where you want to be. And to finish it off, the ones that
have the name of the company on which was what it was called half a
decade ago but the delvery address data on the suppliers database has
never been updated for it.

All of this is completely beide the point. When you have an address, a
SatNav will guide you to it.
--
MrBitsy

Matt B said:

David Hansen said:

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:05:36 GMT someone who may be Clive Sinclair
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Seriously, I know cyclists do
not 'damage' roads, etc. But they are responsible for a lot of
accidents.

Evidence to back up this assertion?

The latest RCGB report gives contributory factors in injury "accidents"
by vehicle involved, and for 25% of the 10,749 "accidents" involving
pedal cycles, a factor was that the cyclist "failed to look properly".
11% had the factor "cyclist entering road from pavement", 9% had the
cyclist as "careless, reckless, in a hurry", and 6% had the cyclist made
a "poor turn or manoeuvre".

Only 46% had no contributory factor associated with the cycle - which
suggests that cyclists' actions were a contributory factor in 5751
casualty "accidents".

Ah, I hear you ask, but how does that compare with other vehicle types?
Well, Light Goods Vehicles (driven by the notorious WVM) had
contributory factors in 7366 "accidents", Heavy Goods Vehicles (driven
by lorry drivers) had factors in 5673.

Matt B

You failed to mention cars which had contributory factors in 117717
accidents

As you mention pedal cycles had contributory factors in 5751 accidents

Compare this with thes contributory factors

Cars: Failed to look properly - 40482
Cars: failed to judge other persons path or speed 22027
Cars: Travelling too fast for conditions - 13072

As percentages of vehicles with contributory factors

Pedal cycle 3.7%
Motorcycle 8.3%
Car 77%
Bus 1.7%
LGV 4.8%
HGV 3.7%

The two lowest - Bus and HGV should be expected as they are professional
drivers who have passed advanced tests. interestingly pedal cycles have
the same percentage as HGV.

Allan

Clive Sinclair said:

And before you ask, yes I cycle in towns. I am a firm believer that
cyclists should have some sort of insurance and pay a 'small' amount
of road tax.

Compulsory insurance for motor vehicles was introduced due to the large
amount of injury and death to third parties caused by motor vehicles.
Could you provide evidence for the deaths and injuries of third parties
caused by cyclists (near misses don't count).

Tax. Should this be set at a rate lower than the rates for low polution cars
?

Quoted message said:

After all, all those signs for cyclists and pedestrians cost money!!
:-)

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Allan said:

Matt B said:

David Hansen said:

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:05:36 GMT someone who may be Clive Sinclair
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

> Seriously, I know cyclists do
> not 'damage' roads, etc. But they are responsible for a lot of
> accidents.
Evidence to back up this assertion?

The latest RCGB report gives contributory factors in injury "accidents"
by vehicle involved, and for 25% of the 10,749 "accidents" involving
pedal cycles, a factor was that the cyclist "failed to look properly".
11% had the factor "cyclist entering road from pavement", 9% had the
cyclist as "careless, reckless, in a hurry", and 6% had the cyclist made
a "poor turn or manoeuvre".

Only 46% had no contributory factor associated with the cycle - which
suggests that cyclists' actions were a contributory factor in 5751
casualty "accidents".

Ah, I hear you ask, but how does that compare with other vehicle types?
Well, Light Goods Vehicles (driven by the notorious WVM) had
contributory factors in 7366 "accidents", Heavy Goods Vehicles (driven
by lorry drivers) had factors in 5673.

You failed to mention cars which had contributory factors in 117717
accidents

I chose LGVs and HGVs because they were involved in a similar number of
"accidents" to pedal cycles. Cars were involved in 20 times as many - a
reflection of the vastly larger mileage travelled in them (100 times
that of bikes). Ideally the numbers should be factored to take account
of exposure.

Quoted message said:

As you mention pedal cycles had contributory factors in 5751 accidents

Compare this with thes contributory factors

Cars: Failed to look properly - 40482
Cars: failed to judge other persons path or speed 22027
Cars: Travelling too fast for conditions - 13072

As percentages of vehicles with contributory factors

What use is that as a measure of anything, given the huge difference in
exposure of each type?

Quoted message said:

Pedal cycle 3.7%
Motorcycle 8.3%
Car 77%
Bus 1.7%
LGV 4.8%
HGV 3.7%

The two lowest - Bus and HGV should be expected as they are professional
drivers who have passed advanced tests. interestingly pedal cycles have
the same percentage as HGV.

Lets divide the number of "vehicles with contributory factors" by the
number of "100 million vehicle kilometres" travelled for each vehicle type.

Contri- 100M Accident contributions
Type butions VKM per 100M VKM
------------- ------- ---- ------------
LGV 7366 643 11
HGV 5673 291 19
Cars 117717 4024 29
Buses 2640 54 49
Pedal cycles 5751 46 125
Motorcycle 12749 52 245

Now we see a better picture of the number of "accidents" each vehicle
type contributes to, taking account of exposure.

--
Matt B

Matt B said:

Lets divide the number of "vehicles with contributory factors" by the
number of "100 million vehicle kilometres" travelled for each vehicle type.

Contri- 100M Accident contributions
Type butions VKM per 100M VKM
------------- ------- ---- ------------
LGV 7366 643 11
HGV 5673 291 19
Cars 117717 4024 29
Buses 2640 54 49
Pedal cycles 5751 46 125
Motorcycle 12749 52 245

Now we see a better picture of the number of "accidents" each vehicle
type contributes to, taking account of exposure.

Surely in this case 'hours spent at risk' should be used - i.e. use the
average speed of each type of vehicle to determine how long it's on the
road for...

In article <[email hidden]>,
Adrian says...

Quoted message said:

Pfft. Initiative, man! A google for "Grange Storage West Yorkshire" returns
www.grangestorage.co.uk as the first result.

Not in 1996 it didn't.

--
Conor

I'm not prejudiced. I hate everyone equally.

In article <[email hidden]>, MrBitsy says...

Quoted message said:

Conor said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Silk says...

Quoted message said:

Lorry Drivers should know where they're going.

Why? Do you think it's feasible for a person to know the location of
absolutely every single street in the UK?

Quoted message said:

Also, with satnavs now
below 100 quid, there's no need to stop to ask directions.

Except there is. I take it you've never done deliveries to any
extent.

Here's a delivery address I once got with a trailer loaded with paper
reels:

Grange Storage
West Yorkshire.

You wouldn't have found that with a paper map - why expect the SatNav to
find it?

Quoted message said:

That was it. West Yorkshire is a bloody big place. Turned out to be
down Grange Road in Batley in the end.

Right, so when you found that out - you could put it a SatNav and it would
take you there.

Quoted message said:

All of this is completely beide the point. When you have an address, a
SatNav will guide you to it.

Actually it isn't beside the point seeing as the point I was actually
discussing with Silk was about lorry drivers stopping at petrol
stations to ask for directions.

He said: "Also, with satnavs now below 100 quid, there's no need to
stop to ask directions." I pointed out several common scenarios where
it would be likely.

Been a long day Ray?

--
Conor

I'm not prejudiced. I hate everyone equally.

Conor ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pfft. Initiative, man! A google for "Grange Storage West Yorkshire"
returns www.grangestorage.co.uk as the first result.

Quoted message said:

Not in 1996 it didn't.

So a SatNav wasn't really an option, either...

In message <[email hidden]>, MrBitsy
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

All of this is completely beide the point. When you have an address, a
SatNav will guide you to it.

Not always. The maps & software can take a long time to catch up.

The road we now live in once had another name. It was cut in two by a DC
bypass in about 1990 and the longer part on the other side of the DC
kept the old name. Our bit (5 houses, cul de sac) has a new name and its
own postcode.

We moved here in December 2005 and at least three delivery drivers
couldn't find our "new " road on their satnavs. There have also been a
couple of drivers knocking at the door looking for the other bit of the
road. The postcode still isn't recognised by some websites.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

Conor said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Silk says...

Quoted message said:

Lorry Drivers should know where they're going.

Why? Do you think it's feasible for a person to know the location of
absolutely every single street in the UK?

Quoted message said:

Also, with satnavs now
below 100 quid, there's no need to stop to ask directions.

Except there is. I take it you've never done deliveries to any extent.

Here's a delivery address I once got with a trailer loaded with paper
reels:

Grange Storage
West Yorkshire.

That was it. West Yorkshire is a bloody big place. Turned out to be
down Grange Road in Batley in the end.

Most of the addresses on the CMR notes for imported loads are a bag of
bollocks. I've also had countless "P.O.Box No.." addresses with no
street name on. Then there's the ones in the middle of nowhere down a
pokey single lane track where you really want to be sure that's exactly
where you want to be. And to finish it off, the ones that have the name
of the company on which was what it was called half a decade ago but
the delvery address data on the suppliers database has never been
updated for it.

I got one in Florence, I drove up this road getting narrower by the
metre until I was just about touching the balconies on both sides of the
street, as I was almost there I got out and walked the remaining 100
meters, Yes, that's us she said, but you want out wharehouse in the
industrial estate outside town, a small but vital bit of information.

NM said:

Conor said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Silk says...

Quoted message said:

Lorry Drivers should know where they're going.

Why? Do you think it's feasible for a person to know the location of
absolutely every single street in the UK?

Quoted message said:

Also, with satnavs now
below 100 quid, there's no need to stop to ask directions.

Except there is. I take it you've never done deliveries to any
extent. Here's a delivery address I once got with a trailer loaded with
paper
reels:

Grange Storage
West Yorkshire.

That was it. West Yorkshire is a bloody big place. Turned out to be
down Grange Road in Batley in the end.

Most of the addresses on the CMR notes for imported loads are a bag
of bollocks. I've also had countless "P.O.Box No.." addresses with no
street name on. Then there's the ones in the middle of nowhere down a
pokey single lane track where you really want to be sure that's
exactly where you want to be. And to finish it off, the ones that
have the name of the company on which was what it was called half a
decade ago but the delvery address data on the suppliers database
has never been updated for it.

I got one in Florence, I drove up this road getting narrower by the
metre until I was just about touching the balconies on both sides of
the street, as I was almost there I got out and walked the remaining
100 meters, Yes, that's us she said, but you want out wharehouse in
the industrial estate outside town, a small but vital bit of
information.

I just *love* it when you're only given half the address.

I was asked to collect a car from "XYZ Service Station, High St, Yeovil".

I'd worked in Yeovil a few years previously and was reasonably certain there
was no service station in the High St 'cos it's only about 100 yards long.

So I get up bright and early and hitch-hike from west London to Yeovil to
find that my memory was right, there's no service station in Yeovil High St.

Find a phone box and call the office (this is before mobiles were dirt
cheap). The manager gets on to the customer who then deigns to provide the
rest of the address, it's in Queen Camel, 7 bloody miles away and which I'd
passed within a mile of on my way to Yeovil.

The upside was that the chap who gave me a lift back to Queen Camel was a
director of a company that made superchargers for Range Rovers, and he was
driving one. Touch the throttle and [censored] of a shovel would have had a
struggle keeping up,

Peter Twydell said:

In message <[email hidden]>, MrBitsy
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

All of this is completely beide the point. When you have an address,
a SatNav will guide you to it.

Not always. The maps & software can take a long time to catch up.

The road we now live in once had another name. It was cut in two by a
DC bypass in about 1990 and the longer part on the other side of the
DC kept the old name. Our bit (5 houses, cul de sac) has a new name
and its own postcode.

We moved here in December 2005 and at least three delivery drivers
couldn't find our "new " road on their satnavs. There have also been a
couple of drivers knocking at the door looking for the other bit of
the road. The postcode still isn't recognised by some websites.

So what - better than navigating by an out of date paper map.
--
MrBitsy

Peter Twydell said:

In message <[email hidden]>, MrBitsy
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

All of this is completely beide the point. When you have an address,
a SatNav will guide you to it.

Not always. The maps & software can take a long time to catch up.

The road we now live in once had another name. It was cut in two by a
DC bypass in about 1990 and the longer part on the other side of the
DC kept the old name. Our bit (5 houses, cul de sac) has a new name
and its own postcode.

We moved here in December 2005 and at least three delivery drivers
couldn't find our "new " road on their satnavs. There have also been a
couple of drivers knocking at the door looking for the other bit of
the road. The postcode still isn't recognised by some websites.

So what - better than navigating by an out of date paper map.
--
MrBitsy

MrBitsy said:

Peter Twydell said:

In message <[email hidden]>, MrBitsy
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

All of this is completely beide the point. When you have an address,
a SatNav will guide you to it.

Not always. The maps & software can take a long time to catch up.

The road we now live in once had another name. It was cut in two by a
DC bypass in about 1990 and the longer part on the other side of the
DC kept the old name. Our bit (5 houses, cul de sac) has a new name
and its own postcode.

We moved here in December 2005 and at least three delivery drivers
couldn't find our "new " road on their satnavs. There have also been
a couple of drivers knocking at the door looking for the other bit of
the road. The postcode still isn't recognised by some websites.

So what - better than navigating by an out of date paper map.

If they're both out of date there's no difference is there?

Nigel Cliffe said:

Clive Sinclair said:

And before you ask, yes I cycle in towns. I am a firm believer that
cyclists should have some sort of insurance and pay a 'small' amount
of road tax.

Compulsory insurance for motor vehicles was introduced due to the large
amount of injury and death to third parties caused by motor vehicles.
Could you provide evidence for the deaths and injuries of third parties
caused by cyclists (near misses don't count).

My brother was run into from behind in August last year by a cyclist,
hit his head against a wall, died 6 weeks later still in a coma

Bazza said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

Clive Sinclair said:

And before you ask, yes I cycle in towns. I am a firm believer that
cyclists should have some sort of insurance and pay a 'small' amount
of road tax.

Compulsory insurance for motor vehicles was introduced due to the
large amount of injury and death to third parties caused by motor
vehicles. Could you provide evidence for the deaths and injuries of
third parties caused by cyclists (near misses don't count).

Quoted message said:

My brother was run into from behind in August last year by a cyclist,
hit his head against a wall, died 6 weeks later still in a coma

My sympathies.

But apparently, Bazza, that cannot be correct, because cyclists never
injure (let alone kill) pedestrians.

Brimstone said:

MrBitsy said:

Peter Twydell said:

In message <[email hidden]>, MrBitsy
<[email hidden]> writes
>
<snip>

> All of this is completely beide the point. When you have an
> address, a SatNav will guide you to it.

Not always. The maps & software can take a long time to catch up.

The road we now live in once had another name. It was cut in two by
a DC bypass in about 1990 and the longer part on the other side of
the DC kept the old name. Our bit (5 houses, cul de sac) has a new
name and its own postcode.

We moved here in December 2005 and at least three delivery drivers
couldn't find our "new " road on their satnavs. There have also been
a couple of drivers knocking at the door looking for the other bit
of the road. The postcode still isn't recognised by some websites.

So what - better than navigating by an out of date paper map.

If they're both out of date there's no difference is there?

Yes there is. The SatNav will always get you to where you want to go,
regardless what new roads are there or old ones closed. All you do is go
down the different road and you will be re-routed by the software.

A paper map will see people reading it on the move, missing turns, stopping
to read the map and faffing about for 30 minutes when they are in the right
area.

--
MrBitsy

"MrBitsy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Brimstone said:

MrBitsy said:

Peter Twydell wrote:
> In message <[email hidden]>, MrBitsy
> <[email hidden]> writes
>>
> <snip>
>
>> All of this is completely beide the point. When you have an
>> address, a SatNav will guide you to it.
>
> Not always. The maps & software can take a long time to catch up.
>
> The road we now live in once had another name. It was cut in two by
> a DC bypass in about 1990 and the longer part on the other side of
> the DC kept the old name. Our bit (5 houses, cul de sac) has a new
> name and its own postcode.
>
> We moved here in December 2005 and at least three delivery drivers
> couldn't find our "new " road on their satnavs. There have also been
> a couple of drivers knocking at the door looking for the other bit
> of the road. The postcode still isn't recognised by some websites.

So what - better than navigating by an out of date paper map.

If they're both out of date there's no difference is there?

Yes there is. The SatNav will always get you to where you want to go,
regardless what new roads are there or old ones closed. All you do is go
down the different road and you will be re-routed by the software.

Not if the data base hasn't been updated with the new postcodes.

Quoted message said:

A paper map will see people reading it on the move, missing turns,
stopping to read the map and faffing about for 30 minutes when they are in
the right area.

Not if it's out of date they won't.

"Out of date" means that info provided is missing or has has changed. The
means of delivering that info is irrelevant.

Bazza said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

Clive Sinclair said:

And before you ask, yes I cycle in towns. I am a firm believer that
cyclists should have some sort of insurance and pay a 'small' amount
of road tax.

Compulsory insurance for motor vehicles was introduced due to the
large amount of injury and death to third parties caused by motor
vehicles. Could you provide evidence for the deaths and injuries of
third parties caused by cyclists (near misses don't count).

My brother was run into from behind in August last year by a cyclist,
hit his head against a wall, died 6 weeks later still in a coma

You have my sympathies.
So, that's one case. Any more in the last few years ?

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

"My brother was run into from behind in August last year by a
cyclist,
hit his head against a wall, died 6 weeks later still in a coma "

Oh my God, I'm sorry, where did this happen?