Clinchers and Cyclocross

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

still me said:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:33:15 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just sold my last handmade silk tire to a guy who noted that last
night's concert cost him, and companion, $260 each. Prices are
relative.

Quoted message said:

Agreed on the relativity, but concert prices are not a standard to
compare to. They have risen by leaps and bounds to satisfy the
endless greed of performers - and then they rise another 25-40% for
Ticketbastard fees on top.

And now that ticket scalping has been legalized in Minnesota, you've
also got the scalper's profit margins added in there as they pretty much
buy up all the seats for the major shows.

I remember seeing Jethro Tull for $6 at the St. Paul Civic Center in
1978. I think I paid $10 to see Rory Gallagher at the Park West in
Chicago in 1979.

According to the inflation calculator at westegg.com, $10 in 1979 is
$29.86 in "2006 dollars". Keep that in mind as you whine and complain.

Quoted message said:

My wife took me to see David Bromberg and Angel Band
with Tony Rice and Peter Rowan a couple weeks ago for $42 each (no Tony
Rice, though, as he was recovering from a back injury sustained in an
accident).

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:26:51 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I think it's great. When they no longer sell out the venue, prices will
drop. Just as Mick Jagger, London School of Economics '58.
--

Well, FWIW, I have noticed a rising number of emails from
Ticketbastard a few days before event offering tickets for sale for
some major bands. So, maybe there's a little back pressure. But, it's
still obscene.

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(A R:nen) said:

Quoted message said:

On Oct 13, 4:48 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Given the typical kinds of clincher rims that cheap-ass CX riders
> like myself are using (ie, 700C road rims), what is the lowest
> pressure you can run without risking bead-seat failure?

Quoted message said:

(Is there a non-cheap-ass clincher option, or just tubulars?)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What about just running fatter tires? These days you can get 700C
tires in 40 mm widths and fatter as well as frames that fit them.
They will take lower pressures with less risk of pinch flats or
coming unseated.

Quoted message said:

There's the small matter of the 35 mm maximum tire width as per the
UCI rules. Next you'll be suggesting disk brakes as well...

In the US, UCI rules about bicycles apply to very, very few races. The
US sanctioning body maintains its own set of rules. Disk brakes and
even mountain bikes are often used in cyclo-cross here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Still true? I thought USAC was going to adopt UCI rules on equipment
starting in '08? Can't find a reference, but I remember the
discussion.

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

still me said:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:33:15 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I just sold my last handmade silk tire to a guy who noted that last
night's concert cost him, and companion, $260 each. Prices are
relative.

Agreed on the relativity, but concert prices are not a standard to
compare to. They have risen by leaps and bounds to satisfy the
endless greed of performers - and then they rise another 25-40% for
Ticketbastard fees on top.

And now that ticket scalping has been legalized in Minnesota, you've
also got the scalper's profit margins added in there as they pretty much
buy up all the seats for the major shows.

I remember seeing Jethro Tull for $6 at the St. Paul Civic Center in
1978. I think I paid $10 to see Rory Gallagher at the Park West in
Chicago in 1979. My wife took me to see David Bromberg and Angel Band
with Tony Rice and Peter Rowan a couple weeks ago for $42 each (no Tony
Rice, though, as he was recovering from a back injury sustained in an
accident).

Back in those days touring was looked at as an expense to sell music. Now
the majority of music is not paid for so the bands use touring as their
primary source of revenue.

Tim McNamara said:

In the US, UCI rules about bicycles apply to very, very few races. The
US sanctioning body maintains its own set of rules. Disk brakes and
even mountain bikes are often used in cyclo-cross here.

(Obvious lame US-invading-Canada quip deleted.)

Anyway, actually I did know that, but isn't the point with that to
accommodate beginners with more diverse equipment, and wouldn't
constructing a dedicated CX race machine outside the UCI specs be
considered bad form, even if technically permitted? Then again, the
criteria are quite trivial and arbitrary, so "who cares" is an
acceptable position as far as I'm concerned.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Andrew Martin said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(A R:nen) said:

[email hidden] writes:
> On Oct 13, 4:48 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > Given the typical kinds of clincher rims that cheap-ass CX
> > riders like myself are using (ie, 700C road rims), what is
> > the lowest pressure you can run without risking bead-seat
> > failure?

Quoted message said:

(Is there a non-cheap-ass clincher option, or just tubulars?)

Quoted message said:

> What about just running fatter tires? These days you can get
> 700C tires in 40 mm widths and fatter as well as frames that
> fit them. They will take lower pressures with less risk of
> pinch flats or coming unseated.

Quoted message said:

There's the small matter of the 35 mm maximum tire width as per
the UCI rules. Next you'll be suggesting disk brakes as well...

In the US, UCI rules about bicycles apply to very, very few races.
The US sanctioning body maintains its own set of rules. Disk
brakes and even mountain bikes are often used in cyclo-cross here.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Still true? I thought USAC was going to adopt UCI rules on equipment
starting in '08? Can't find a reference, but I remember the
discussion.

Well, if they are going to adopt the UCI regulations for bicycles in
2008, the old rules would still hold true...

In article <[email hidden]>,

still me said:

Tim McNamara said:

I miss the Grateful Dead. No stage show per se, just music. Didn't
have to deal with Jerry Garcia busting a move. Nowadays the
concerts I go to still have some of that same vibe: Richard
Thomspon, Jorma Kaukonen and Jack Casady, David Bromberg a couple
weeks ago, Pat Metheny, etc. Just music, no frippery. Good grief,
when did I become my parents?

Some folks still play that way. Mostly folks who are not considered
"main stream". They also tend to be the people who don't gouge. The
Dead were the only ones to ever successfully buck the ticketbastard
monopoly. To bad others didn't follow suit.

Towards the end of the Dead's career, they were basically renting the
places they played and handled ticket sales themselves. The GD Hotline
had a tight set of rules to minimize scalping and got them paid up front
instead of having to collect the cash from the local promoter during or
after the show. I think that Phish did some of this as well; and ISTR
there being a lawsuit against Pearl Jam by Ticketmaster or vice versa.

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

Jobst got me to thinking about CX tires, typically run at low pressure,
in another thread, and I decided to start a new line of inquiry.

Quoted message said:

Given the typical kinds of clincher rims that cheap-ass CX riders like
myself are using (ie, 700C road rims), what is the lowest pressure you
can run without risking bead-seat failure?

Quoted message said:

http://www.wtb.com/products/tires/hybrid/crosswolf/http://www.wtb.com...

Quoted message said:

BTW, if you're wondering, the Cross Wolf is very pleasing in the touted
moist-to-wet conditions. I was very pleased with the traction I got
using it on the front, as compared to the densely-knobbied All
Terrainasaurus. You feel less stupid saying the name, too.

What about just running fatter tires? These days you can get 700C
tires in 40 mm widths and fatter as well as frames that fit them.
They will take lower pressures with less risk of pinch flats or coming
unseated.

Well, Ryan might not want to change his frame.
This is entirely apart from the UCI regs. (In some
places, the UCI regs may apply in the A race - definitely
if it's actually a UCI event - but not in the B/C/masters
races, so you'll see flat bar bikes and so on in those
catgories).

Beyond that, I'm not convinced that a larger tire is
less likely to unseat at a given PSI. In fact, even
without unseating, lowish pressure large tires on a
narrow rim can be a rather floppy and sketchy handling
combination.

I think the problem here is the kevlar bead. If you have
slightly undersize rims that are easy to mount tires
on, kevlar bead liftoff can be a problem. Here, I'd want
wire beads, or a rim/tire combination that is somewhat
difficult to mount. (That's a nuisane, but since you rarely
fix flats in the middle of a cross race, a nuisance
you can take care of at your leisure.)

Ben

In article <[email hidden]>,

(A R:nen) said:

Tim McNamara said:

In the US, UCI rules about bicycles apply to very, very few races. The
US sanctioning body maintains its own set of rules. Disk brakes and
even mountain bikes are often used in cyclo-cross here.

(Obvious lame US-invading-Canada quip deleted.)

Anyway, actually I did know that, but isn't the point with that to
accommodate beginners with more diverse equipment, and wouldn't
constructing a dedicated CX race machine outside the UCI specs be
considered bad form, even if technically permitted? Then again, the
criteria are quite trivial and arbitrary, so "who cares" is an
acceptable position as far as I'm concerned.

The local rule is that UCI restrictions are enforced in the "A"-level
races, which is to say, the groups that are actually competing for
provincial and national championships.

In "B" and "C" races, mountain bikes, discs, and judging by what
happened last year, even old English singlespeeds are permitted. This is
a sop to beginners and intermediates who don't want to buy a new bike
for two months of racing.

Lately, the CX course construction has been getting pretty Euro around
here, which is all to the good. I don't think a mountain bike would be
an advantage on any of the courses we had this year, though in the more
sand-centric courses, MTB-width tires might float through where CX tires
sank in.

At any rate, I was able to outrun some riders through the sand at last
weekend's race,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

Jobst got me to thinking about CX tires, typically run at low pressure,
in another thread, and I decided to start a new line of inquiry.

Quoted message said:

Given the typical kinds of clincher rims that cheap-ass CX riders like
myself are using (ie, 700C road rims), what is the lowest pressure you
can run without risking bead-seat failure?

Quoted message said:

http://www.wtb.com/products/tires/hybrid/crosswolf/http://www.wtb.com...

Quoted message said:

BTW, if you're wondering, the Cross Wolf is very pleasing in the touted
moist-to-wet conditions. I was very pleased with the traction I got
using it on the front, as compared to the densely-knobbied All
Terrainasaurus. You feel less stupid saying the name, too.

What about just running fatter tires? These days you can get 700C
tires in 40 mm widths and fatter as well as frames that fit them.
They will take lower pressures with less risk of pinch flats or coming
unseated.

Well, Ryan might not want to change his frame.
This is entirely apart from the UCI regs. (In some
places, the UCI regs may apply in the A race - definitely
if it's actually a UCI event - but not in the B/C/masters
races, so you'll see flat bar bikes and so on in those
catgories).

I have a UCI-legal bike (a Nashbar "X" frame with whatever parts I had
in the pile or could scrounge up), but it probably could take 40 mm
tires. I'd have to check.

Quoted message said:

Beyond that, I'm not convinced that a larger tire is
less likely to unseat at a given PSI. In fact, even
without unseating, lowish pressure large tires on a
narrow rim can be a rather floppy and sketchy handling
combination.

I think the problem here is the kevlar bead. If you have
slightly undersize rims that are easy to mount tires
on, kevlar bead liftoff can be a problem. Here, I'd want
wire beads, or a rim/tire combination that is somewhat
difficult to mount. (That's a nuisane, but since you rarely
fix flats in the middle of a cross race, a nuisance
you can take care of at your leisure.)

After riding an entire lap last weekend with a dead-flat tire and no
roll-off, I'm pretty impressed by the tenacity of my rear tire's kevlar
bead.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

Tim McNamara said:

Towards the end of the Dead's career, they were basically renting the
places they played and handled ticket sales themselves. The GD Hotline
had a tight set of rules to minimize scalping and got them paid up front
instead of having to collect the cash from the local promoter during or
after the show. I think that Phish did some of this as well; and ISTR
there being a lawsuit against Pearl Jam by Ticketmaster or vice versa.

The Pearl Jam revolt flopped, and they ended up canceling shows
according to what I've read. They really needed more than a lawsuit -
they needed a revolt. There were too few bands wiling to sign on and
buck the ticketmaster monopoly.

Oddly, the one thing that is bringing some of the ticket issue out in
front is the Hannah Montana show. Now that "kids" are affected, some
people are taking notice. Perhaps Congress will take a look at the
Ticketmaster monopoly and put some pressure on.

Tim McNamara said:

...
There's a big flap locally as Minnesota basically caved in and legalized
scalping. Tickets for major shows are selling for 200% to 600% of face
value, being bought up by professional scalpers. The upcoming "Hannah
Montana" concert sold out in about 15 seconds, virtually all to ticket
brokers. You want a pair of tickets on the main floor? Plan on
forking out $300 or so....

What kind of moronic parents would spend that much money to take a
pre-teen/teen daughter [1] to a concert? Adjusted for inflation, that is
about as much as was spent on non-necessities during my childhood.

I would only pay that much money if it involved time travel: the first
performance of the Manzoni Requiem, the Berlin Callas/di Stefano von
Karajan Lucia, 1942 BPO/Furtwängler Beethoven 9th or other performances
that are both revelatory and unique.

[1] I would assume that this is the bulk of the audience for "Hannah
Montana".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Frank Drackman said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

still me said:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:33:15 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
wrote:

> I just sold my last handmade silk tire to a guy who noted that last
> night's concert cost him, and companion, $260 each. Prices are
> relative.
Agreed on the relativity, but concert prices are not a standard to
compare to. They have risen by leaps and bounds to satisfy the
endless greed of performers - and then they rise another 25-40% for
Ticketbastard fees on top.

And now that ticket scalping has been legalized in Minnesota, you've
also got the scalper's profit margins added in there as they pretty much
buy up all the seats for the major shows.

I remember seeing Jethro Tull for $6 at the St. Paul Civic Center in
1978. I think I paid $10 to see Rory Gallagher at the Park West in
Chicago in 1979. My wife took me to see David Bromberg and Angel Band
with Tony Rice and Peter Rowan a couple weeks ago for $42 each (no Tony
Rice, though, as he was recovering from a back injury sustained in an
accident).

Back in those days touring was looked at as an expense to sell music. Now
the majority of music is not paid for so the bands use touring as their
primary source of revenue.

Then and now, the record companies and publishers took most of the
money, leaving relative scraps for all but a few of the most popular
performers.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

...
There's a big flap locally as Minnesota basically caved in and
legalized scalping. Tickets for major shows are selling for 200% to
600% of face value, being bought up by professional scalpers. The
upcoming "Hannah Montana" concert sold out in about 15 seconds,
virtually all to ticket brokers. You want a pair of tickets on the
main floor? Plan on forking out $300 or so....

Tom Sherman said:

What kind of moronic parents would spend that much money to take a
pre-teen/teen daughter [1] to a concert? Adjusted for inflation, that is
about as much as was spent on non-necessities during my childhood.-snip-

Your parents felt you were worth $300 an hour???
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

I remember seeing Jethro Tull for $6 at the St. Paul Civic Center in
1978. I think I paid $10 to see Rory Gallagher at the Park West in
Chicago in 1979. My wife took me to see David Bromberg and Angel Band
with Tony Rice and Peter Rowan a couple weeks ago for $42 each (no Tony
Rice, though, as he was recovering from a back injury sustained in an
accident).

still me said:

Yeah, I saw the Stones for $12 in 1975. But now even the rebel artists
have sold out to the "gouge the fans for all I can" model.

Quoted message said:

I got a blurb for a Neil Young concert the other day. Neil the rebel
crusader "I ain't singin for Bud". So, I thought "He's on my list of
'want to see him in person before he dies'". I check on tickets - $69-
$150 before the Ticketbastard fees are added in. Geez... I'd pay that
for a CSNY reunion, but there's no way I'd pay that just to see Neil.

Quoted message said:

Buffett went the same way. There's an story that Buffett told in days
gone by of how he refused to change the words of a song just to sell
it to some producer - now he's such a commercial business man it's
hard to tell him from Warren Buffett. Tickets are notably way
overpriced for his shows right out of the box. They used to be an
escape from reality and the business world for a day - now they're a
trip to commercial marketing land.

Quoted message said:

And the Stones? Forget it. Last show, they charge $150 for the lame
seats, good seats were $300 and up.

Quoted message said:

Personally, I think I'm done. I like to get kissed when I get... well,
you know the phrase.

I think it's great. When they no longer sell out the venue, prices will
drop. Just as Mick Jagger, London School of Economics '58.
--
Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It _is_ an interesting phenomenon. I'm a Stones fan, and I saw them in
'88, but it really is amazing that people still feel the need to go
out and spend the money.

/s

Andrew Muzi mused:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

...
There's a big flap locally as Minnesota basically caved in and
legalized scalping. Tickets for major shows are selling for 200% to
600% of face value, being bought up by professional scalpers. The
upcoming "Hannah Montana" concert sold out in about 15 seconds,
virtually all to ticket brokers. You want a pair of tickets on the
main floor? Plan on forking out $300 or so....

Tom Sherman said:

What kind of moronic parents would spend that much money to take a
pre-teen/teen daughter [1] to a concert? Adjusted for inflation, that
is about as much as was spent on non-necessities during my
childhood.-snip-

Your parents felt you were worth $300 an hour???

They didn't kick me out that quickly!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Scott Gordo said:

It _is_ an interesting phenomenon. I'm a Stones fan, and I saw them in
'88, but it really is amazing that people still feel the need to go
out and spend the money.

They are way better in concert than any of their records shows. I saw
every tour that came through my area from '75 up until the last one
(which I skipped). Prices were $12 in '75, a little over $100 AFAIR on
the last one I saw. The tour they just did had such outrageous prices
(crappy seats $150, reasonable seats $300, great seats ridiculous)
that I finally decided to quit. I did the same thing with Buffett, who
I caught religiously each year and enjoyed every show. It used to be
an escape from corporate life, now it's an exercise in it.

I don't mind paying a reasonable price, even a steep price for a great
band, but I do mind getting seriously gouged so some rock star can
live a life of dreams.

On Oct 13, 10:02 am, Andrew Martin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Oct 13, 5:17 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"

Quoted message said:

On Oct 12, 8:48 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jobst got me to thinking about CX tires, typically run at low pressure,
in another thread, and I decided to start a new line of inquiry.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Given the typical kinds of clincher rims that cheap-ass CX riders like
myself are using (ie, 700C road rims), what is the lowest pressure you
can run without risking bead-seat failure?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I recognize that proper bead seating may initially require a higher
pressure, so assume, if you need to, that I pre-pump and properly seat
my tires at high pressure before setting the final pressure.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This question isn't moot: I had a friend test-ride my bike a few races
ago, and with a brand new flexible-bead tire on the front, he rode back
with a goodly portion of the bead utterly unseated. I may have had the
pressure as low as 35 pounds, though I think I ultimately ran the race
at 45 or 50. I fear my records and recollection are a bit shaky.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, it's quite possible that I did a poor job of seating the bead in
the first place, so I offer this tale not so much as proof but as the
catalyst that got me to thinking about this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In other words, these are the questions keeping me up right now:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-will a CX-sized clincher tire spontaneously unseat from a hooked road
(or CX) rim at low but imaginable-for-CX pressures?

Quoted message said:

VERY common, particularly on rocky/rough courses.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-would a wire bead lower the pressure threshold?

Quoted message said:

It may, since it will hold onto the rim better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-Is bead seat failure a plausible argument for CX tubulars?

Quoted message said:

Ya suppose?
Tubies are the best idea for rough courses, anytime you need low
pressure. For courses like all grass, like Cross-Vegas, clinchers
would have been fine but if you are 'serious' about cross, you need
tubulars.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Note that given my own experience, barring repeated bead seat failures
at my typical

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and the specific tires: the old tire that was removed from the rim
was a WTB All Terrainasaurus 35c (nominal), a "hybrid" tire with a wire
bead. The new tire was a flexi-beaded WTB Cross Wolf 32c (nominal). I
know a guy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.wtb.com/products/tires/hybrid/crosswolf/http://www.wtb.com...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, if you're wondering, the Cross Wolf is very pleasing in the touted
moist-to-wet conditions. I was very pleased with the traction I got
using it on the front, as compared to the densely-knobbied All
Terrainasaurus. You feel less stupid saying the name, too.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden]://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

I talked to Tim Rutledge of SeattleBikeSupply (Redline) at Interbike.
They are going to have their team running new tubeless cross tires
this season. Hutchison didn't have any to show off, but Tim said they
were awesome and allowed you to run 32/40psi.

BUT with what wheels? And if not shimano, gotta use that godawful
Stans stuff?