Low-carb on a tight budget

"em" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Eric's comment made me want to bring up the subject of doing low-carb on a
budget:

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote i

Quoted message said:

We're talking at least six dollars a
day if you try to eat 2000 calories in meat and fish with some level
of variety. That adds up to some serious bread, doesn't it?

Rather than blather, I thought I'd just open up the topic to see what
everyone has to say.

The budget for our family of 3 is $75/week. I buy one "variety pack" of
meat from a local butcher that contains 45# of chicken, beef, and pork of
various cuts and sorts, for $74.95. The rest goes into fresh and frozen
produce, dairy (including eggs), fish, spices/seasonings/condiments mostly,
with the occasional - approx. monthly - package of sweetener, jar of the
coffee substitute I drink, and nuts/seeds. We don't eat fruit for the most
part, but I do have frozen berries in my "shop" (a big kitchen, actually,
out of which I run my business) and will sometimes take a half-cup or so for
a sauce or dessert. If the budget allows, when one of our foods goes on
sale, I buy as much as I can even if it means buying less of something else.

When we ate packaged, prepared, and carby foods, I couldn't shop for
$75/week. Low carb is cheaper for us.

--
Sherry
lowcarb.owly.net

em said:

Rather than blather, I thought I'd just open up the topic to see what
everyone has to say.

It depends on how you were eating before; if you were eating a lot of
processed junk, going low-carb with real food is cheaper.

But that's really not about it being low-carb, that's about eating whole
foods. And it's actually cheaper to eat high-carb whole foods... wheat
berries are darned cheap; you can get 100 lbs of them for under $10 and
that would stretch anyone's food budget. Grain is cheap; there's no
getting around that - cutting it from your diet raises average food cost.

On the other hand, there's some seriously expensive costs associated
with not eating well. Even one day in the hospital more than wipes out
a year's worth of carefully frugal grocery shopping; it gets a lot worse
if you're out-of-work for health reasons.

Even on high-carb, you need to get sufficient protein and the only
really cheap source of protein is eggs whether you are low-carb or
high-carb.

IMO, the primary thing to save money low-carbing is a freezer; if you
buy meats in bulk, you can save a LOT of money on them. I will have 3
or 4 turkeys in my freezer before the holiday is over as this is the
cheap time to buy them.

I have been trying hard not to care about food cost since my heart
attack, insisting on buying pasture-raised animal products which are
more expensive, preferring organic fresh produce over regular, using
avocado and coconut oils, etc. Some of the individual prices of stuff I
buy freaks me out, but I've not been spending more overall.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

UsenetID said:

"em" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Eric's comment made me want to bring up the subject of doing low-carb on a
budget:

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote i

Quoted message said:

We're talking at least six dollars a
day if you try to eat 2000 calories in meat and fish with some level
of variety. That adds up to some serious bread, doesn't it?

Rather than blather, I thought I'd just open up the topic to see what
everyone has to say.

Eric appears fixated on the all meat approach to Atkins and low carb.

Beef and pork average around 400 to 600 Cals per 6 ounce serving, so the
2000 Calorie intake would require 30 to 20 ounces of beef/pork or call
it roughly 1.5 pounds of meat per day.

Fattier cuts of meat would reduce the required daily poundage by 20 to
40%. Vegetable oil fats are a pretty cheap form of calories, also.

The price range of this much meat can range from $2 / lb to $10 / lb so
this could be $3.00 / day to $15.00 per day.

The basic answer on expense as raised by Eric is "it depends".

I tend to now ignore much of what is claimed about reasons to support
oddish forms of low carb diets.

UsenetID said:

"em" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Eric's comment made me want to bring up the subject of doing low-carb on a
budget:

Quoted message said:

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote i

Quoted message said:

We're talking at least six dollars a
day if you try to eat 2000 calories in meat and fish with some level
of variety. That adds up to some serious bread, doesn't it?

Quoted message said:

Rather than blather, I thought I'd just open up the topic to see what
everyone has to say.

The budget for our family of 3 is $75/week. I buy one "variety pack" of
meat from a local butcher that contains 45# of chicken, beef, and pork of
various cuts and sorts, for $74.95. The rest goes into fresh and frozen
produce, dairy (including eggs), fish, spices/seasonings/condiments mostly,
with the occasional - approx. monthly - package of sweetener, jar of the
coffee substitute I drink, and nuts/seeds.

How much of that stuff do you get for $.05? 🙂

We don't eat fruit for the most

Quoted message said:

part, but I do have frozen berries in my "shop" (a big kitchen, actually,
out of which I run my business) and will sometimes take a half-cup or so for
a sauce or dessert. If the budget allows, when one of our foods goes on
sale, I buy as much as I can even if it means buying less of something else.

When we ate packaged, prepared, and carby foods, I couldn't shop for
$75/week. Low carb is cheaper for us.

--
Sherry
lowcarb.owly.net

Yes, I was going to bring that up too. If you're an out of control
blivitt eating everything is sight, you're going to eat a whole lot
less when you're on LC. Not sure it will entirely offset the higher
cost of real food, but it certainly is a factor. And it also depends
on what kind of carby stuff you were eating.

You can also reduce the cost by using more chicken and less beef,
fish, etc. Chicken is on sale here for 40 to 50% off at one
supermarket or another every week.

em wrote:
:: Eric's comment made me want to bring up the subject of doing
:: low-carb on a budget:
::
:: "Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote i
::: We're talking at least six dollars a
::: day if you try to eat 2000 calories in meat and fish with some level
::: of variety. That adds up to some serious bread, doesn't it?
::
::
:: Rather than blather, I thought I'd just open up the topic to see what
:: everyone has to say.

Worrying about cost where one's health is concerned is "penny-wise and pound
foolish".

Besides, when one gives up junky overly processed foods, the cost will go
down because one typically will eat less (assuming one is losing weight).

Jackie Patti said:

I have been trying hard not to care about food cost since my heart
attack, insisting on buying pasture-raised animal products which are
more expensive, preferring organic fresh produce over regular, using
avocado and coconut oils, etc. Some of the individual prices of
stuff I buy freaks me out, but I've not been spending more overall.

Jackie, I hope you don't mind me asking, but did you have your heart attack
before eating low carb? If not, how did you change your diet?

O

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Worrying about cost where one's health is concerned is "penny-wise and
pound foolish".

I remember a time in my life, not so long ago, at a time that I happened to
be on a low-cal diet. My budget was so tight at the time that, when buying
food, one of my main buying considerations was calories per dollar.

Quoted message said:

Besides, when one gives up junky overly processed foods, the cost will go
down because one typically will eat less (assuming one is losing weight).

Junk food is pretty cheap. A loaf of bread. The dollar menu at McDonalds.
Cheap microwave pizza. Ravioli on sale for eighty cents a can.

There are a lot of inexpensive low-carb foods too. Canned meat on-sale, such
as tuna, chicken, etc., goes well with salad & cheap lc dressing. I see tuna
on-sale once and a while for $0.50/can. Minute steaks, 12 oz "steaks" are $1
each. You can stock up on mayo when its on sale. Eggs keep for a while and
they go on sale frequently. I see a lot of steak on-sale for $1.79 a pound,
such as London Broil (I think that's what its called.) I rarely pay more
than $3.99/pound for cheese. Buying bulk goods makes a big difference, too.
I see five pound blocks of cheese on-sale for pretty cheap, and huge
packages of five dozen hot dogs. "Back then", I didn't have the storage
space for that kind of stuff.

I almost always calculate out cost/pound when choosing food. A difference of
..05/oz in price comes out to .80/pound, for example. You really have to
watch the cents/oz when you're buying sandwich meat and cheese. When money
is tight, its tight. Down-to-the-penny shopping can make a big difference.

I guess a lot of this depends on where you live -- I'm in Los Angeles, and I
would guess that prices are higher here than they are in many other cities.

Being broke sucks, by the way. I am a much happier person now that I am (and
have been) working steady for a while.

Mike

em wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote
::
:::
::: Worrying about cost where one's health is concerned is "penny-wise
::: and pound foolish".
::
:: I remember a time in my life, not so long ago, at a time that I
:: happened to be on a low-cal diet. My budget was so tight at the time
:: that, when buying food, one of my main buying considerations was
:: calories per dollar.

I can understand...however, "penny-wise and pound foolish" means that while
you're eating "low cost" the pounds are piling on.

::
:::
::: Besides, when one gives up junky overly processed foods, the cost
::: will go down because one typically will eat less (assuming one is
::: losing weight).
::
:: Junk food is pretty cheap. A loaf of bread. The dollar menu at
:: McDonalds. Cheap microwave pizza. Ravioli on sale for eighty cents a
:: can.
::

Yep. Certainly appears cheap at first glance. However, eating lots of carbs
tends to ramp appetite and people end up eating more food than really need.
A loaf of bread might be cheap, but when you eat 4 sandwiches at a time, you
go through it quickly while racking up a lot of calories. And you start to
get fat. Later on, it will cost you more.

:: There are a lot of inexpensive low-carb foods too. Canned meat
:: on-sale, such as tuna, chicken, etc., goes well with salad & cheap
:: lc dressing. I see tuna on-sale once and a while for $0.50/can.
:: Minute steaks, 12 oz "steaks" are $1 each. You can stock up on mayo
:: when its on sale. Eggs keep for a while and they go on sale
:: frequently. I see a lot of steak on-sale for $1.79 a pound, such as
:: London Broil (I think that's what its called.) I rarely pay more
:: than $3.99/pound for cheese. Buying bulk goods makes a big
:: difference, too. I see five pound blocks of cheese on-sale for
:: pretty cheap, and huge packages of five dozen hot dogs. "Back then",
:: I didn't have the storage space for that kind of stuff.

Good news. You'll pay less and eat less.

::
:: I almost always calculate out cost/pound when choosing food. A
:: difference of .05/oz in price comes out to .80/pound, for example.
:: You really have to watch the cents/oz when you're buying sandwich
:: meat and cheese. When money is tight, its tight. Down-to-the-penny
:: shopping can make a big difference.
::

Yes, cost of food is one thing. But the affect it has on how much you want
ot eat is another. I wonder if you knew then what you know now if your math
might have been different.

:: I guess a lot of this depends on where you live -- I'm in Los
:: Angeles, and I would guess that prices are higher here than they are
:: in many other cities.
::
:: Being broke sucks, by the way. I am a much happier person now that I
:: am (and have been) working steady for a while.

I was broke for many, many years. It does suck.

em said:

Eric's comment made me want to bring up the subject of doing low-carb
on a budget:

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote i

Quoted message said:

We're talking at least six dollars a
day if you try to eat 2000 calories in meat and fish with some level
of variety. That adds up to some serious bread, doesn't it?

$6/day is hardly "serious bread," is it? If you buy fast food or eat in
restaurants or cafeterias *at all*, you're going to average more than
that. If you can't squeeze out $200/month for the right food (I've been
there), then that's a separate issue you need to get handled. I'm a
cheap [censored], but I don't flinch at spending $200-300 on food for
myself every month. Sometimes you do get what you pay for, after all.

It's true that you *can* eat high-carb cheaper than low-carb, because
grains tend to be very cheap (partly due to government subsidies), but
most overweight people who come to low-carb aren't leaving behind a diet
of ramen noodles and rice. More likely they're leaving behind pizza,
pastries, subs, TV dinners, chips, and plenty of other expensive
processed foods. Low-carb foods don't have to cost more than those
processed high-carb foods, as long as you're willing to do your own
preparation and cooking. If you're smart about it, you can have steak
and salad at home cheaper than a Happy Meal or a big bag of Doritos.

As someone else mentioned, eggs may have the best nutrition/cost ratio
of any food there is. Even if you pay a little more for eggs that
didn't come from a factory farm, you can get them for 20 cents or less
each. Fry 4-5 in a pat of butter, and you've got breakfast for under
$1. I get hamburger and pork sausage from a local butcher in bulk for
well under $2/pound, so I can have a couple quarter-pounders with mayo
and mustard for lunch for another $1 or less. I watch for sales on
canned goods like mushrooms, so I can toss them into dishes like
omelettes or meatloaf for maybe 10 cents/serving.

Some things are harder to find cheap. Nuts are just plain expensive,
but if you can find them in large quantities and raw, they're a lot
cheaper than a few ounces roasted in a can--sometimes less than half the
price. Roast a whole bunch and freeze them. Cheese can be expensive,
but around here it goes on sale regularly, so when it does, I buy up
several pounds and freeze them. I only pay $1-1.50/pound for cheese
that way. Some salad fixin's don't keep long enough to stock up when
they're on sale, so I tend to eat a lot of salads when lettuce is on
sale, and then take a break from them when it's not. I get bored with
salads if I eat them all the time anyway.

It may also help to buy directly from local growers. A lot of people
who sell eggs, meat, or garden produce do it because they enjoy it or
have a surplus, so they don't necessarily charge much. Even if you end
up paying as much as you would at the grocery store, you can get a much
better product. There's also the option of having your own garden, if
you have a place for it. $25 in seeds can turn into a heck of a lot of
food.

--
Aaron -- 285/254/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Ophelia said:

Jackie Patti said:

I have been trying hard not to care about food cost since my heart
attack, insisting on buying pasture-raised animal products which are
more expensive, preferring organic fresh produce over regular, using
avocado and coconut oils, etc. Some of the individual prices of
stuff I buy freaks me out, but I've not been spending more overall.

Jackie, I hope you don't mind me asking, but did you have your heart attack
before eating low carb? If not, how did you change your diet?

I've been low-carbing for over a decade for bg control, but lost bg
control subsequent to a pancreasitis attack, then had the heart attack,
an unsuccessful angio and thus a bypass. I have changed my diet in a
number of ways since then.

First being that I record the carbs, protein and calories of every meal
in order to dose the insulin. Insulin makes me much more aware of what
I eat and cuts the snacking back a lot since I rarely am hungry enough
to want an extra shot.

I doubled my vegetable intake - I now buy 10-15 lbs of fresh produce
every week and race to eat it before it goes bad. Most of what I buy is
organic, considerably more expensive.

I eat more fruit too, pretty much a serving of berries, melon, kiwi,
half a pomegranate or such once or twice a day.

I cut out eating quite so much low-carb junk food like the tortillas and
rather make more things out of flax and almond meal.

I've reduce the overall saturated fat in my diet because I am buying all
pasture-raised meat and dairy now, which has healthier fats. It's more
expensive, so I eat a bit less of this stuff.... though every meal still
starts with a base of protein: meat, poultry, fish, eggs, yogurt,
cottage cheese, raw hard cheese - all from pasture-raised animals so a
lot more expensive than I'm used to.

I've been pushing myself to eat fish more often. Mostly tuna and
tilapia, rarely scallops cause they're expensive. I also take 6g fish
oil daily.

I threw out all the vegetable oils except olive oil and started buying
avocado oil as well.

I quit the Lindt 85% chocolate and started making coconut bark instead
(I've posted the recipe here, so you can Google for it). This gets me
coconut oil in my diet for it's purported health benefits without
increasing my saturated fat since it's replacing cocoa butter.

I used to drink a pot of coffee and at least 2 liters of Diet Pepsi
daily, if not more. Now, I drink one cup of real coffee, then switch to
decaf for the rest of the day. And for cold drinks, I drink
stevia-sweetened lemonade or limeade. Sometimes dilute cranberry juice
(real juice, not the "cocktail" stuff which is full of sugar).

I also take a multivitamin, B-complex, pantothenic acid and niacin daily
now aside from my prescription meds. I count the supplements in my food
budget, though not the medications.

The thing that doesn't quite make sense to me is that I *know* I am
buying more expensive meats, veggies, fruits, dairy products, eggs and
buying more supplements, but am not spending more money overall than I
was doing before. It's hard for me to believe I was spending *that*
much on Diet Pepsi and low-carb tortillas...

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

Jackie Patti said:

I've been low-carbing for over a decade for bg control, but lost bg
control subsequent to a pancreasitis attack, then had the heart
attack, an unsuccessful angio and thus a bypass. I have changed my
diet in a number of ways since then.

Was the heart attack directly attributable to the pancreasitis? When you
say you had been lcing for the bg control, are you diabetic?

Sorry if I am being too blunt but this fascinates me. If you prefer not to
repond I will undestand.

I don't have a clue what my bg is. Ought I to know, or would know if there
was a problem?

First being that I record the carbs, protein and calories of every

Quoted message said:

meal in order to dose the insulin. Insulin makes me much more aware
of what I eat and cuts the snacking back a lot since I rarely am
hungry enough to want an extra shot.

I doubled my vegetable intake - I now buy 10-15 lbs of fresh produce
every week and race to eat it before it goes bad. Most of what I buy
is organic, considerably more expensive.

Quite! We buy everything we can, organic.

Quoted message said:

I eat more fruit too, pretty much a serving of berries, melon, kiwi,
half a pomegranate or such once or twice a day.

I cut out eating quite so much low-carb junk food like the tortillas
and rather make more things out of flax and almond meal.

I've reduce the overall saturated fat in my diet because I am buying
all pasture-raised meat and dairy now, which has healthier fats. It's more
expensive, so I eat a bit less of this stuff.... though
every meal still starts with a base of protein: meat, poultry, fish,
eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, raw hard cheese - all from
pasture-raised animals so a lot more expensive than I'm used to.

Hmm... we don't have that recorded on our food, although I always choose
organic. I wonder if that has anything to do with pasture raised? I had
thought saturated fat was the healthy one, although you have cut it down,
not out.

Quoted message said:

I've been pushing myself to eat fish more often. Mostly tuna and
tilapia, rarely scallops cause they're expensive. I also take 6g fish
oil daily.

I threw out all the vegetable oils except olive oil and started buying
avocado oil as well.

I quit the Lindt 85% chocolate and started making coconut bark instead
(I've posted the recipe here, so you can Google for it). This gets me
coconut oil in my diet for it's purported health benefits without
increasing my saturated fat since it's replacing cocoa butter.

I shall search for it, thank you🙂

Quoted message said:

I used to drink a pot of coffee and at least 2 liters of Diet Pepsi
daily, if not more. Now, I drink one cup of real coffee, then switch
to decaf for the rest of the day. And for cold drinks, I drink
stevia-sweetened lemonade or limeade. Sometimes dilute cranberry
juice (real juice, not the "cocktail" stuff which is full of sugar).

I also take a multivitamin, B-complex, pantothenic acid and niacin
daily now aside from my prescription meds. I count the supplements
in my food budget, though not the medications.

I don't know what the latter two are, but we take a multivit, B complex, and
Cod liver oil.

Quoted message said:

The thing that doesn't quite make sense to me is that I *know* I am
buying more expensive meats, veggies, fruits, dairy products, eggs and
buying more supplements, but am not spending more money overall than I
was doing before. It's hard for me to believe I was spending *that*
much on Diet Pepsi and low-carb tortillas...

I can only think that the junk doesn't feed you and you need more to feel
satisfied.

Well done Jackie. I think you are very clever to do all that. I hope it
means your health is improving or at least stable.

Many thanks

O

Ophelia said:

Jackie Patti said:

I've been low-carbing for over a decade for bg control, but lost bg
control subsequent to a pancreasitis attack, then had the heart
attack, an unsuccessful angio and thus a bypass. I have changed my
diet in a number of ways since then.

Was the heart attack directly attributable to the pancreasitis? When you
say you had been lcing for the bg control, are you diabetic?

Yes, I've been a T2 diabetic for almost 2 decades now.

I am the one who has attributed the heart attack to the diabetes being
uncontrolled. Diabetics have the same chance of having a heart attack
as someone who has already had one. High bg gycosylates serum proteins,
making them sticky and causing plaque buildup. And high bg screws up
your lipids... I had elevated LDL and trigylcerides in the hospital
until my bg was controlled, then they were cut in half and my LDL came
in at under 60.

I'm a 45-yr-old woman, so having a heart attack was kinda not in the
odds for me yet, which is why I think it was the elevated bg as that is
my primary risk factor.

Quoted message said:

Sorry if I am being too blunt but this fascinates me. If you prefer not to
repond I will undestand.

I've already discussed it all over Usenet. In short, my heart attack
likely occured because I was scared of insulin and didn't treat my high
bg - so it was caused by stupidity.

Quoted message said:

I don't have a clue what my bg is. Ought I to know, or would know if there
was a problem?

It's hard to say.

If your bg is very out-of-control, you tend to have certain symptoms -
you're thirsty a lot and also need to pee a lot. There's also a
tendency towards infections like boils and yeast infections and such.
You have to be pretty seriously elevated to have those symptoms though.

Doctors tend to screen by testing fasting blood glucose. The problem
is, the way the diseases progresses is by losing blood glucose control
after meals first, so the fasting numbers don't get high until you're
already fairly screwed up. Most diabetics already have damage due to
diabetes before they're diagnosed as it's symptoms that cause a doctor
to look further.

Lots more info about diabetes here: http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/

If you are concerned, you can buy a cheap meter and test for a week or
two to see how you do. In general, the meters are cheap, often free,
it's the test strips that are expensive. Walmart has a very cheap
storebrand meter with cheap strips.

Well-controlled diabetics test after meals to see what foods raise their
bg. There's a good page about testing here:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm

Given that the main thing that lowers bg and improves insulin resistance
in most T2s is a low-carb diet and exercise, you're likely doing most of
what needs to be done anyways.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've reduce the overall saturated fat in my diet because I am buying
all pasture-raised meat and dairy now, which has healthier fats. It's more
expensive, so I eat a bit less of this stuff.... though
every meal still starts with a base of protein: meat, poultry, fish,
eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, raw hard cheese - all from
pasture-raised animals so a lot more expensive than I'm used to.

Hmm... we don't have that recorded on our food, although I always choose
organic. I wonder if that has anything to do with pasture raised? I had
thought saturated fat was the healthy one, although you have cut it down,
not out.

I think many organic regulations require the animals to have *some*
access to pasture, but that's not necessarily pasture-raised.

I have a freezer so can mostly buy meat from farmers. With cheese and
other dairy products, I've had to research to find out which brands are
pasture-raised. It's usually tiny organic brands no one's ever heard
of. 😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also take a multivitamin, B-complex, pantothenic acid and niacin
daily now aside from my prescription meds. I count the supplements
in my food budget, though not the medications.

I don't know what the latter two are, but we take a multivit, B complex, and
Cod liver oil.

The latter two are specific to heart disease; they're higher doses of
two individual B vitamins.

I tried the cod liver oil as it would've replaced 6 fish oil tablets and
2 vitamin D tablets. But it makes me retch; I can't stand the stuff.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The thing that doesn't quite make sense to me is that I *know* I am
buying more expensive meats, veggies, fruits, dairy products, eggs and
buying more supplements, but am not spending more money overall than I
was doing before. It's hard for me to believe I was spending *that*
much on Diet Pepsi and low-carb tortillas...

I can only think that the junk doesn't feed you and you need more to feel
satisfied.

Could be. Before the heart attack, I could eat two small pizzas,
spaghetti sauce, mozzarella and pepperoni baked on a low-carb tortilla.
When I started recording things, I discovered those suckers had a
thousand calories each. I still have them now-and-then, but one is
quite sufficient!

I found when I started eating more veggies, I was craving more and more
veggies for a while. It got kind of ridiculous how much vegetables I
was eating while still wanting more - so I do suspect I might have had
some sort of deficiencies.

Quoted message said:

Well done Jackie. I think you are very clever to do all that. I hope it
means your health is improving or at least stable.

I doubt I can credit the diet; I'll improve as time passes anyways as it
takes time to heal up from surgeries. But I'm rather motivated to do
everything that will help right now, so have made lots of dietary changes.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

Jackie Patti said:

Ophelia said:

Jackie Patti said:

I've been low-carbing for over a decade for bg control, but lost bg
control subsequent to a pancreasitis attack, then had the heart
attack, an unsuccessful angio and thus a bypass. I have changed my
diet in a number of ways since then.

Was the heart attack directly attributable to the pancreasitis? When you
say you had been lcing for the bg control, are you diabetic?

Yes, I've been a T2 diabetic for almost 2 decades now.

I am the one who has attributed the heart attack to the diabetes being
uncontrolled. Diabetics have the same chance of having a heart attack
as someone who has already had one. High bg gycosylates serum
proteins, making them sticky and causing plaque buildup. And high bg
screws up your lipids... I had elevated LDL and trigylcerides in the
hospital until my bg was controlled, then they were cut in half and my LDL
came
in at under 60.

I'm a 45-yr-old woman, so having a heart attack was kinda not in the
odds for me yet, which is why I think it was the elevated bg as that
is my primary risk factor.

Quoted message said:

Sorry if I am being too blunt but this fascinates me. If you prefer
not to repond I will undestand.

I've already discussed it all over Usenet. In short, my heart attack
likely occured because I was scared of insulin and didn't treat my
high bg - so it was caused by stupidity.

Quoted message said:

I don't have a clue what my bg is. Ought I to know, or would know
if there was a problem?

It's hard to say.

If your bg is very out-of-control, you tend to have certain symptoms -
you're thirsty a lot and also need to pee a lot. There's also a
tendency towards infections like boils and yeast infections and such.
You have to be pretty seriously elevated to have those symptoms
though.
Doctors tend to screen by testing fasting blood glucose. The problem
is, the way the diseases progresses is by losing blood glucose control
after meals first, so the fasting numbers don't get high until you're
already fairly screwed up. Most diabetics already have damage due to
diabetes before they're diagnosed as it's symptoms that cause a doctor
to look further.

Lots more info about diabetes here: http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/

If you are concerned, you can buy a cheap meter and test for a week or
two to see how you do. In general, the meters are cheap, often free,
it's the test strips that are expensive. Walmart has a very cheap
storebrand meter with cheap strips.

Well-controlled diabetics test after meals to see what foods raise
their bg. There's a good page about testing here:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm

Given that the main thing that lowers bg and improves insulin
resistance in most T2s is a low-carb diet and exercise, you're likely
doing most of what needs to be done anyways.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've reduce the overall saturated fat in my diet because I am buying
all pasture-raised meat and dairy now, which has healthier fats.
It's more expensive, so I eat a bit less of this stuff.... though
every meal still starts with a base of protein: meat, poultry, fish,
eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, raw hard cheese - all from
pasture-raised animals so a lot more expensive than I'm used to.

Hmm... we don't have that recorded on our food, although I always
choose organic. I wonder if that has anything to do with pasture
raised? I had thought saturated fat was the healthy one, although
you have cut it down, not out.

I think many organic regulations require the animals to have *some*
access to pasture, but that's not necessarily pasture-raised.

I have a freezer so can mostly buy meat from farmers. With cheese and
other dairy products, I've had to research to find out which brands
are pasture-raised. It's usually tiny organic brands no one's ever
heard of. 😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also take a multivitamin, B-complex, pantothenic acid and niacin
daily now aside from my prescription meds. I count the supplements
in my food budget, though not the medications.

I don't know what the latter two are, but we take a multivit, B
complex, and Cod liver oil.

The latter two are specific to heart disease; they're higher doses of
two individual B vitamins.

I tried the cod liver oil as it would've replaced 6 fish oil tablets
and 2 vitamin D tablets. But it makes me retch; I can't stand the
stuff.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The thing that doesn't quite make sense to me is that I *know* I am
buying more expensive meats, veggies, fruits, dairy products, eggs
and buying more supplements, but am not spending more money overall
than I was doing before. It's hard for me to believe I was
spending *that* much on Diet Pepsi and low-carb tortillas...

I can only think that the junk doesn't feed you and you need more to
feel satisfied.

Could be. Before the heart attack, I could eat two small pizzas,
spaghetti sauce, mozzarella and pepperoni baked on a low-carb
tortilla. When I started recording things, I discovered those
suckers had a thousand calories each. I still have them
now-and-then, but one is quite sufficient!

I found when I started eating more veggies, I was craving more and
more veggies for a while. It got kind of ridiculous how much
vegetables I was eating while still wanting more - so I do suspect I might
have had
some sort of deficiencies.

Quoted message said:

Well done Jackie. I think you are very clever to do all that. I
hope it means your health is improving or at least stable.

I doubt I can credit the diet; I'll improve as time passes anyways as
it takes time to heal up from surgeries. But I'm rather motivated to
do everything that will help right now, so have made lots of dietary
changes.

Many, many thanks Jackie for all that information!!!!!

I shall certainly look into those sites and will keep this mail for
reference!!

best

O

Ophelia said:

I don't have a clue what my bg is. Ought I to know, or would know if
there was a problem?

I think it's a very useful thing to know. If you're overweight, there's
a good chance that your blood sugar isn't well controlled. If your BG
doesn't come back to normal within two hours after eating, that means
either A) your pancreas isn't producing as much insulin as it should, or
B) it's producing insulin like crazy, but you're insulin resistant
enough that all that insulin isn't able to convince your cells to pull
the glucose out of your blood. The latter may eventually wear your
pancreas out to the point of Type II diabetes.

A doctor can do a fasting BG test, but for $50-$100 in equipment and
strips you can test yourself multiple times: fasting, when waking up,
one hour and two hours after meals, after exercise, etc. That'll give
you a much better picture of how your body handled glucose than a single
test will. You can also test after foods like sugar alcohols, which
seem to cause a BG spike in some people and not others, to see how they
affect you.

When I started testing, just seeing the numbers was the shock to my
system that I needed to make me realize what I was doing to my health.
I could no longer tell myself it wouldn't hurt to have one more pizza
binge, that I could put off the diet tomorrow, because it wasn't just
about weight loss anymore, but about quality of life and making sure I
won't be getting anything amputated or going blind. When you look at
that meter and see 190 two hours after a carby meal, knowing that
anything over 140 means organ damage is occurring *right now*, that's
hard to brush off. On the other hand, seeing a nice healthy 89 two
hours after a great low-carb lasagna (with Swiss chard for noodles) is
really gratifying.

Quoted message said:

Hmm... we don't have that recorded on our food, although I always
choose organic. I wonder if that has anything to do with pasture
raised? I had thought saturated fat was the healthy one, although you
have cut it down, not out.

Saturated fat isn't bad for you like we've been taught, but it's not
especially good for you either. It really depends on what else you're
eating, which is why some studies made saturated fats look bad: people
were eating them in combination with too many carbs and not enough
omega-3 fatty acids.

Your body knows how to convert saturated fat into unsaturated, which is
good, because saturated fats aren't very flexible (think butter compared
to olive oil), so you don't want a lot of them making up your cell
membranes. However, this process requires certain enzymes, and the
production process that leads to those enzymes begins with omega-3 fatty
acids. If you're eating the typical modern diet that has an
omega-6/omega-3 ratio of twenty or more to one, you may not produce
enough of those enzymes, and your cell membranes will be stiffer than
would be best. This can worsen insulin resistance, among other things,
because it makes it harder for the receptors in the membrane to move
around and do things.

So if you're eating right otherwise, saturated fats aren't a threat the
way they are to the grain eaters, because you'll be able to use them
well. If you're eating low-carb, you're almost automatically going to
have a better omega-6/omega-3 ratio than "normal", because most grains
are very high in omega-6. Fish oil and sardines can improve the ratio
even more, and as Jackie said, pasture raised animal products are better
than those from grain-fed animals.

Trans-fats are the only fat that's truly harmful in all cases. Like
saturated fat, they're inflexible, but unlike saturated fat, they
haven't been around long enough for us to evolve a mechanism for
converting them into a flexible form. So the body just plugs them into
the cell walls as-is and hopes for the best, especially if you're short
on healthy fats. You really don't want to consume *any* trans-fats,
ever, if you can possibly avoid it.

(Most of this is condensed from Protein Power Life Plan, by the way; so
grab a copy of that for a detailed explanation.)

--
Aaron -- 285/254/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Aaron, many thanks for all this good advice. I have saved it along with
Jackie's advice.

I have just posted to Jackie to have a wee look at the diabetes org in Uk.

As I have said to her, I have tested myself on that group and I am indeed
at high risk.

After all the good stuff I have read here, I am a wee bit worried about
their suggestions for food!

You might enjoy <?> reading it and I would appreciate your comments too

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-diabetes/Food_and_recipes/Recipes/Shepherds_Pie/?nt=1

Quoted message said:

Ophelia said:

I don't have a clue what my bg is. Ought I to know, or would know if
there was a problem?

I think it's a very useful thing to know. If you're overweight,
there's a good chance that your blood sugar isn't well controlled.
If your BG doesn't come back to normal within two hours after eating,
that means either A) your pancreas isn't producing as much insulin as
it should, or B) it's producing insulin like crazy, but you're
insulin resistant enough that all that insulin isn't able to convince
your cells to pull the glucose out of your blood. The latter may
eventually wear your pancreas out to the point of Type II diabetes.

A doctor can do a fasting BG test, but for $50-$100 in equipment and
strips you can test yourself multiple times: fasting, when waking up,
one hour and two hours after meals, after exercise, etc. That'll give
you a much better picture of how your body handled glucose than a
single test will. You can also test after foods like sugar alcohols,
which seem to cause a BG spike in some people and not others, to see
how they affect you.

When I started testing, just seeing the numbers was the shock to my
system that I needed to make me realize what I was doing to my health.
I could no longer tell myself it wouldn't hurt to have one more pizza
binge, that I could put off the diet tomorrow, because it wasn't just
about weight loss anymore, but about quality of life and making sure I
won't be getting anything amputated or going blind. When you look at
that meter and see 190 two hours after a carby meal, knowing that
anything over 140 means organ damage is occurring *right now*, that's
hard to brush off. On the other hand, seeing a nice healthy 89 two
hours after a great low-carb lasagna (with Swiss chard for noodles) is
really gratifying.

Quoted message said:

Hmm... we don't have that recorded on our food, although I always
choose organic. I wonder if that has anything to do with pasture
raised? I had thought saturated fat was the healthy one, although
you have cut it down, not out.

Saturated fat isn't bad for you like we've been taught, but it's not
especially good for you either. It really depends on what else you're
eating, which is why some studies made saturated fats look bad: people
were eating them in combination with too many carbs and not enough
omega-3 fatty acids.

Your body knows how to convert saturated fat into unsaturated, which
is good, because saturated fats aren't very flexible (think butter
compared to olive oil), so you don't want a lot of them making up
your cell membranes. However, this process requires certain enzymes,
and the production process that leads to those enzymes begins with
omega-3 fatty acids. If you're eating the typical modern diet that
has an omega-6/omega-3 ratio of twenty or more to one, you may not
produce enough of those enzymes, and your cell membranes will be
stiffer than would be best. This can worsen insulin resistance,
among other things, because it makes it harder for the receptors in
the membrane to move around and do things.

So if you're eating right otherwise, saturated fats aren't a threat
the way they are to the grain eaters, because you'll be able to use
them well. If you're eating low-carb, you're almost automatically
going to have a better omega-6/omega-3 ratio than "normal", because
most grains are very high in omega-6. Fish oil and sardines can
improve the ratio even more, and as Jackie said, pasture raised
animal products are better than those from grain-fed animals.

Trans-fats are the only fat that's truly harmful in all cases. Like
saturated fat, they're inflexible, but unlike saturated fat, they
haven't been around long enough for us to evolve a mechanism for
converting them into a flexible form. So the body just plugs them
into the cell walls as-is and hopes for the best, especially if
you're short on healthy fats. You really don't want to consume *any*
trans-fats, ever, if you can possibly avoid it.

(Most of this is condensed from Protein Power Life Plan, by the way;
so grab a copy of that for a detailed explanation.)

It's my opinion that diabetics should never eat potatoes (or pasta or
cereal, perhaps a bit of LC bread once in a while). That recipe has 53 g
carb/serving which is more than a lot of people eat in a whole day. They
are obviously still stuck in the low fat/high carb syndrome as is the
American Diabetes Association. Fat does not raise BG, carbs do. Avoid
their badvice.

Ophelia wrote:
| Aaron, many thanks for all this good advice. I have saved it along
| with
| Jackie's advice.
|
| I have just posted to Jackie to have a wee look at the diabetes org
| in Uk.
|
| As I have said to her, I have tested myself on that group and I am
| indeed
| at high risk.
|
| After all the good stuff I have read here, I am a wee bit worried
| about
| their suggestions for food!
|
| You might enjoy <?> reading it and I would appreciate your comments
| too
|
|
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-diabetes/Food_and_recipes/Recipes/Shepherds_Pie/?nt=1
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|| "Ophelia" <[email hidden]> writes:
||
||| I don't have a clue what my bg is. Ought I to know, or would know
||| if there was a problem?
||
|| I think it's a very useful thing to know. If you're overweight,
|| there's a good chance that your blood sugar isn't well controlled.
|| If your BG doesn't come back to normal within two hours after eating,
|| that means either A) your pancreas isn't producing as much insulin as
|| it should, or B) it's producing insulin like crazy, but you're
|| insulin resistant enough that all that insulin isn't able to convince
|| your cells to pull the glucose out of your blood. The latter may
|| eventually wear your pancreas out to the point of Type II diabetes.
||
|| A doctor can do a fasting BG test, but for $50-$100 in equipment and
|| strips you can test yourself multiple times: fasting, when waking up,
|| one hour and two hours after meals, after exercise, etc. That'll
|| give you a much better picture of how your body handled glucose than
|| a single test will. You can also test after foods like sugar
|| alcohols, which seem to cause a BG spike in some people and not
|| others, to see how they affect you.
||
|| When I started testing, just seeing the numbers was the shock to my
|| system that I needed to make me realize what I was doing to my
|| health. I could no longer tell myself it wouldn't hurt to have one
|| more pizza binge, that I could put off the diet tomorrow, because it
|| wasn't just about weight loss anymore, but about quality of life and
|| making sure I won't be getting anything amputated or going blind.
|| When you look at that meter and see 190 two hours after a carby
|| meal, knowing that anything over 140 means organ damage is occurring
|| *right now*, that's hard to brush off. On the other hand, seeing a
|| nice healthy 89 two hours after a great low-carb lasagna (with Swiss
|| chard for noodles) is really gratifying.
||
||| Hmm... we don't have that recorded on our food, although I always
||| choose organic. I wonder if that has anything to do with pasture
||| raised? I had thought saturated fat was the healthy one, although
||| you have cut it down, not out.
||
|| Saturated fat isn't bad for you like we've been taught, but it's not
|| especially good for you either. It really depends on what else
|| you're eating, which is why some studies made saturated fats look
|| bad: people were eating them in combination with too many carbs and
|| not enough omega-3 fatty acids.
||
|| Your body knows how to convert saturated fat into unsaturated, which
|| is good, because saturated fats aren't very flexible (think butter
|| compared to olive oil), so you don't want a lot of them making up
|| your cell membranes. However, this process requires certain enzymes,
|| and the production process that leads to those enzymes begins with
|| omega-3 fatty acids. If you're eating the typical modern diet that
|| has an omega-6/omega-3 ratio of twenty or more to one, you may not
|| produce enough of those enzymes, and your cell membranes will be
|| stiffer than would be best. This can worsen insulin resistance,
|| among other things, because it makes it harder for the receptors in
|| the membrane to move around and do things.
||
|| So if you're eating right otherwise, saturated fats aren't a threat
|| the way they are to the grain eaters, because you'll be able to use
|| them well. If you're eating low-carb, you're almost automatically
|| going to have a better omega-6/omega-3 ratio than "normal", because
|| most grains are very high in omega-6. Fish oil and sardines can
|| improve the ratio even more, and as Jackie said, pasture raised
|| animal products are better than those from grain-fed animals.
||
|| Trans-fats are the only fat that's truly harmful in all cases. Like
|| saturated fat, they're inflexible, but unlike saturated fat, they
|| haven't been around long enough for us to evolve a mechanism for
|| converting them into a flexible form. So the body just plugs them
|| into the cell walls as-is and hopes for the best, especially if
|| you're short on healthy fats. You really don't want to consume *any*
|| trans-fats, ever, if you can possibly avoid it.
||
|| (Most of this is condensed from Protein Power Life Plan, by the way;
|| so grab a copy of that for a detailed explanation.)

FOB said:

It's my opinion that diabetics should never eat potatoes (or pasta or
cereal, perhaps a bit of LC bread once in a while). That recipe has
53 g carb/serving which is more than a lot of people eat in a whole
day. They are obviously still stuck in the low fat/high carb
syndrome as is the American Diabetes Association. Fat does not raise
BG, carbs do. Avoid their badvice.

Yes I can see that.

Did you look at the rest of the recipes or the advice?

Looks just like the stupid advice from the ADA:

". At each meal include starchy carbohydrate foods such as bread, pasta,
chapattis, potatoes, yam, noodles, rice and cereals. The amount of
carbohydrate you eat is important to control your blood glucose levels. All
varieties are fine but try to include those that are more slowly absorbed
(have a lower glycaemic index) as these won’t affect your blood glucose
levels as much. Better choices include:
• Pasta
• Basmati or easy cook rice
• Grainy breads such as granary, pumpernickel and rye
• New potatoes, sweet potato and yam
• Porridge oats, All Bran and natural muesli."

All things a diabetic should avoid.

And:
" Reduce salt in your diet to 6g or less a day – more than this can raise
your blood pressure, which can lead to stroke and heart disease. Limit the
amount of processed foods you eat and try flavouring foods with herbs and
spices instead of salt.

A very few people with high blood pressure are sensitive to salt. It's
never good to overdo anything, but a normal amount of salt is fine and even
necessary. There is no proof that it "causes" high blood pressure. Of
course, many prepared foods, like canned soups, contain far more salt than
is necessary to make them taste good. If you eat fresh natural foods, and
make your own soups, etc., salt will never be a problem.

Their BG goals appear a bit high as well.

Ophelia wrote:
|
| Yes I can see that.
|
| Did you look at the rest of the recipes or the advice?

FOB said:

Looks just like the stupid advice from the ADA:

". At each meal include starchy carbohydrate foods such as bread,
pasta, chapattis, potatoes, yam, noodles, rice and cereals. The
amount of carbohydrate you eat is important to control your blood
glucose levels. All varieties are fine but try to include those that
are more slowly absorbed (have a lower glycaemic index) as these
won’t affect your blood glucose levels as much. Better choices
include:
• Pasta
• Basmati or easy cook rice
• Grainy breads such as granary, pumpernickel and rye
• New potatoes, sweet potato and yam
• Porridge oats, All Bran and natural muesli."

All things a diabetic should avoid.

Yes! That is what I have learned here. I can remember one woman I knew who
had a biscuit (cookie) on a regular basis *because she was diabetic*

I am not diabetic (so far as I know) but i also know that I am at risk. I
intend therefore to eat in the way I have learned here, in the hope I shall
avoid diabetes!

Quoted message said:

And:
" Reduce salt in your diet to 6g or less a day – more than this can
raise your blood pressure, which can lead to stroke and heart
disease. Limit the amount of processed foods you eat and try
flavouring foods with herbs and spices instead of salt.

A very few people with high blood pressure are sensitive to salt.
It's never good to overdo anything, but a normal amount of salt is
fine and even necessary. There is no proof that it "causes" high
blood pressure. Of course, many prepared foods, like canned soups,
contain far more salt than is necessary to make them taste good. If
you eat fresh natural foods, and make your own soups, etc., salt will
never be a problem.

Their BG goals appear a bit high as well.

Thank you FOB! I appreciate your input!

Quoted message said:

Ophelia said:

Yes I can see that.

Did you look at the rest of the recipes or the advice?